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Post by emeraldink4blood on Jul 29, 2012 20:32:46 GMT -5
HP
There are no other words for what I have to say other than Fuck you. I'm so angry that my head is spinning. What part of what I said indicates that I support bullying? I'll admit, I'm a bit of a snake fangirl but only because I always imagine that there has to be another side to the story. You say I support bullying because I stand up for the slytherin firsties? I don't care how prejudiced a bunch of 11 year olds are - although mind you, you only mentioned four - a 100 and something year old man should not humiliate an entire house because he thinks they're a bunch of brats. If Dumbles has a problem with what Snape does then make a rule that says any point awarded or deducted in what appears to be favoritism will be cancelled out. You don't fuck over an entire house like that because their head of house is a bitter man who can't let a fucking grudge go. You say Dumbles did this to say he won't tolerate slytherin behavior? From what we see in later books our main examples of slytherin act much worse than they did in their first year. Why doesn't dumbles continuing taking disciplinary action along those same lines? Eg: taking away Quidditch privileges, Hogsmade trips, etc. Not everything Dumbles does is high and mighty. I honestly believe he had no other intention than to reward potter and pals for "saving the stone". I just think, that being such an intelligent man he would have realized what rewarding them at the EoY feast would have done to whichever house had won. I wouldve felt this way if to had been ravenclaw or hufflepuff.
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Post by emeraldink4blood on Jul 29, 2012 20:34:14 GMT -5
Oh and for the record, I have been the vitcm of both verbal and physical bullying and abuse for the past 10 years of my life. I do not agree with it. So again. Fuck you.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 30, 2012 0:30:43 GMT -5
Emeraldink, I agree with you there. Even if Dumbledore wanted to reward them, he could have done it much earlier. Harry was three days in the Hospital Wing, right? So, why wait until the very last moment, for heavens sake?
And it's true that Dumbledore never ever tried to stop Snape's bullying, unfairness and prejudice. Can't you just hear him "I trust Snape" whenever someone complains? So, that explanation for first year doesn't make sense at all. He never cared - as you can see with other incidents as well - when the whole school turned against Harry, he never did anything, either. And from the bit we know, it wasn't any different in the time of the Marauders, either.
No matter what his magical achievements are, Dumbledore has the pedagogical skill of a blast-ended skrewt.
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 30, 2012 9:50:39 GMT -5
I think that the way Dumbledore did it was okay. Because what the three of them did was spread through the school and it was a huge achievement so everybody would wonder what they got for it. And really everybody would question Dumbledore even more if Gryffindor suddenly got 160 points on the last day and he would have to tell everybody anyway.
The only thing that he could have done in private was giving Neville points although I must say that the lesson he gave with it (standing up to your friends) is a lesson that everybody can need.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 30, 2012 9:58:25 GMT -5
Why not award the points earlier, so the Slytherins were knowing they didn't win, and *then* at the feast explain his reasons? Would have served the same purpose, minus the public humilation of Slytherin.
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 30, 2012 10:03:15 GMT -5
I don't think so. In both cases all the students sit in the Great Hall at the end and know that the victory got taken away from the Slytherins just short before the end of the school year.
Because I expect that the Slytherins had gloated over their achievement enough already and had then been proven wrong
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 30, 2012 10:05:32 GMT -5
But if Dumbledore had awarded the points straight away, it would have been three days before the end of the year, when things still can change. The Slytherins would have hoped for the victory, but could probably not be sure yet, and it wouldn't have been final already.
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 30, 2012 10:12:44 GMT -5
Well if he had done it three days before the feast it wouldn't have been possible to leave the explanation until the feast. Because everybody from Slytherin would have protested and the Gryffindors would have wanted to know why they got all those points.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 30, 2012 10:43:21 GMT -5
Do they argue about every point given or taken?
Besides, what's the problem with just explaining during dinner one day?
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 30, 2012 10:46:04 GMT -5
Not over every point but over 160 points. And you just have to compare the reaction to the 150 point loss after the Dragon incident. I imagine it would be even worse when it concerns the winning of the Housecup. And Harry never went down to dinner before the end of the year feast. He was in the Hospital the whole time.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 30, 2012 11:12:53 GMT -5
Why does Harry need to be there for the awarding of the points at all? My point is, Dumbledore doesn't need to tell Harry, he needs to tell the rest of the school - earlier than in canon. It would have caused less resentment than to announce Slytherin as winner and then award Gryffindor enough points to beat them.
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Post by Kaiserin on Jul 30, 2012 11:32:02 GMT -5
why did he have to give them those points at all? yes the lost points before and yes it might have been extreme butthey were breaking the rules so points were rightly taken.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 30, 2012 11:40:44 GMT -5
You know, I never understood the whole point system to begin with. For the troll incident, Hermione lost 5 points, the boys each got 5. And that incident was dangerous. But for just being out after curfew - Minerva didn't know about Norbert, after all - they lose 50 each? That's out of line - badly. Particularly as she only took 20 from Malfoy. And then they got detention, too - one they should never have sent on. Which adult in their right mind sends them *after curfew* into the Forbidden Forest (as punishment for being out after curfew!!) to look for something when they know there's something so dangerous out there? Frankly, that was beyond stupid, and it most definitely didn't fit the 'crime'.
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Post by dracosfairmaiden on Jul 30, 2012 11:43:58 GMT -5
Apparently wizards have a strange point system. It did seem overboard that Harry and his friends lost 50 points each when all they did was stay out past curfew. Especially when the Mauraders did much worse.
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Post by Kaiserin on Jul 30, 2012 12:04:48 GMT -5
mind you I don't agree with what the punishment was, though I think the forest was a stupid moment, she probably had Hagrid ask to have the kids and she probably thought having it late would teach them to not want to break curfew. hagrid should not have detentions because his sense of safety is a joke. McGonagall was wrong but she did think that they were playing a cruel joke on a slytherin and a house member and maybe it was a bit extreme but they did require disipline.
Dumbledore did not have any need to give them those points back though, even if they were lost with out reason. as I said before he did not need to give them any points.
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 30, 2012 12:18:42 GMT -5
On the topic of the Norbert incident: They didn't loose 150 points for being out of bounds but because McGongall thought they had set Malfoy up and were out of the common room to see him get caught. And also that they "led" Neville out of the room too. Perhaps another thing is that Hermione was caught who normally is a model student.
And on the topic why Dumbledore needed to give them points: Because it is good storytelling. The hero does a mad dash to save the world and as reward gets the girl or in this case the house cup.
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Post by sprigofmoonlace on Jul 30, 2012 12:32:50 GMT -5
McGonagall's points removal for the dragon incident really annoyed me. After all people are always hating on Snape for seeing Harry as his father (which is true) when I think McGonagall also did. She automatically assumes they were doing it to get a Slytherin in trouble which is something the Mauraders would've done. Besides 50 points for a first night out of bed especially when Malfoy only got 20?
Dumbledore was just plain stupid doing that. That just made the Slytherins essentially hate him more. Whose fault is it really that the Slytherins turn against him?
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 30, 2012 14:01:39 GMT -5
Of course she did what usually Snape does - she saw James and his friends in them and took the points she'd take for catching them for the umpeenth time. It was never fair, and out of proportion both for what they did and in comparison to the troll incident. And don't forget that they got a detention on top of it - including Malfoy. It was way too excessive for what they did, or she thought they did. And don't forget that they ended up as the pariahs in their house - they were punished thrice just for being out of bed and wanting to help a friend. The sad thing is, if they had told McGonagall the truth, she'd not even believed them, very likely.
I wonder what she would have done if they were in Slytherin ... besides, I'd bet a lot that Snape made up for Malfoy's point loss the next lesson he gave.
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Post by ShotgunWilly on Jul 30, 2012 15:12:37 GMT -5
I think that you guys are delving way too deep into this. As I understand, JKR originally wrote TPS primarily targeted towards young teens and children. In those books, the bad guys usually end up getting humiliated pretty badly. I know, I know, it would suck ass to be a Slytherin at that time and the Slytherins weren't the main antagonists, but you can't deny that most kids, upon reading that scene would be like "Heck yea! They SO deserved that" 'cause, frankly, the Slytherins were pretty much jerks all-around. Most adults wouldn't react as well as several of you have proven, but kids, certainly.
So, yea, if TPS were a book targeted to adults, that would not have been a very good thing for JKR to include. Thankfully for her, TPS wasn't.
werewulfking has the gist of it.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 31, 2012 0:07:39 GMT -5
*grin* That's true, Willy, from a child's POV it was perfect punishment for the bad guys, and we are looking at it differently mostly due to our age. On the other hand, where would be the fun if we'd not take everything apart?  |
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Post by emeraldink4blood on Jul 31, 2012 11:44:24 GMT -5
Exactly. And at the risk of ruining the atmosphere, we're not ridiculing the plot or the story in this thread. We're not dragging JK into this. We're imagining if this universe was real, then why did a proclaimed genius do this very mean thing. Say what you will about it being good for the story (most of us agree), let us have our fun and bicker about whether it was good for the characters. |
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Post by emeraldink4blood on Jul 31, 2012 11:48:11 GMT -5
And to the argument higher up about awarding the points at the feast so everyone would know why. Minne didn't wait till a feast to take away 150 points and then explain why. >.>
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 31, 2012 12:05:23 GMT -5
Yes but that was not a Housecup deciding decision, as the schoolyear was far from over.
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