What makes a book a worthwhile read for you?

[blackroses77]

Haven't seen the trailers, but given the graphics of other games I have seen the clone wars cartoon leaves something to be desired. And that again was a disappointment, that they went with a clone wars theme as I was once again hoping they would make animated sequels of the original movies. I remember the first few of the JJK series but I don't remember if I read them all What's wrong with getting the books off Amazon? I get stuff there all the time and have only had two problems which isn't bad considering.

[readingwizard4]

An animated series in the New Republic era would have have amazing. I like the Clone Wars era but it was time to move on. There were 6 of them. The Golden Globe, Lyric's World, The Fortress of Vader I think was another (That one was my favorite) and not sure about the others off the top of my head. I read all 6 of them but not all of the YJK series. No problem really. It was just that I have to get 50 some odd books off of there and I've never ordered books online before. I'm also including Jude Watson's Jedi Apprentice, Jedi Quest series' as well as the Galaxy of Fear as well as all of the JJK books and book 7 of the YJK books on. I have the first 6 in two omnibuses

[Ithiarel]

I love when a book has interesting and well rounded characters. But recently, I've become a structure addict. I simply can't stand it anymore when an author doesn't manage to get the structure of the story right. My main peeve there are proplogues - or at least what some people seem to believe prologues are...
*stopping the rant before if comes out*
*swallowing the rant*
*gulp*

I like stories that "make sense" within the context of the world they are told in. So, while I definitely don't like plot holes, a plot without any holes isn't much worth to me either, if it is completely outlandish and improbable.

And I'm also a little pacing and timing freak. I love stories where the plottwists are timed just right and the pacing is so that the story just... flows. You know what I mean?

[readingwizard4]

Structure is indeed important. Though for me I can suspend my disbelief a lot if something doesn't make sense. It has to be something so appalling that I can't get over it. I can brush over anything in Harry Potter quite easily. The biggest plot hole in relation to a whole series that I could not get over was the ending of The Force Unleashed 2 for Star Wars. The ending is too appalling for words.

I think I understand your last two sentences. You don't want a book that drags on or has too many plot twists. Ruins the suspense if there are too many pot twists. Don't read Moby Dick then. There's a whole chapter based on how white the whale is and it's a decent sized chapter.

[Ithiarel]

Jun 28, 2012 11:15:15 GMT -5 readingwizard4 said:

Don't read Moby Dick then. There's a whole chapter based on how white the whale is and it's a decent sized chapter.

Don't get me started on that one... I actually have a friend, who loves "Moby Dick"... *shudders*

And Plot is definitely one point.

Structure, though, means more than that for me:
- I hate it when authors call their first chapter "Prologue" even though it most definitly isn't one. (A lot of fanfic writer's do that, and it drives me crazy each time, because they obviously have no idea what a prologue is, what goes into it, and what doesn't.)
- I also dislike unnecessary mixes of plot patterns, or (god beware) completely wrong usage of plot patterns.
- And violations of writing conventions. (E.g. modern writers who start off their stories with vast and detailed descriptions. That's just not done anymore. It's a relict from the 19th century. Or misuses of "Chekhov's Gun".)
- Lastly, I dislike it when writer's call something a story, when it is not "a story" but merely a "scene".

[physicssquid]

Structure is one of the most important things imo. That's why I like Clive Cussler's Dirk Pitt adventures. There aren't too many plot twists in those, they aren't too big, they don't have many plot twists, but they do have some, and those are fairly minor, but have major repercussions for the main characters. Hell, I like books that I just can't put down, because you get dragged along by the plot.

[readingwizard4]

mixes of plot patterns? I'm not an English Major so I don't really understand what that is. I probably will when you explain it but I'm blanking on it right now. Vast and Detailed descriptions are good sometimes. I'll have to look into Dirk Pitt adventures then. Books that you can't put down are amazing. I usually get into most books regardless of plot but those books are more exciting

[Ithiarel]

Jun 28, 2012 11:55:30 GMT -5 readingwizard4 said:

mixes of plot patterns? I'm not an English Major so I don't really understand what that is. I probably will when you explain it but I'm blanking on it right now.

Plot pattern are... how do I put this... basically the master structures underlying all stories. There are dozens of different names for them, so you may know them under a different one. "Narrative pattern" is another one. The most traditional one was handed down from Greek tradition in drama (you know Aristotle and his three-Act-structure of Exposition, Rising Action, and Resolution?).
There are lots of others, though, more modern ones (e.g. covering replays like "Run Lola Run") and also very basic variations (e.g. the "hero's journey" variation used in most fantasy stories - a good example for this pattern is "Star Wars IV"... well, the one where Luke first comes into play).

Vast and Detailed descriptions are good sometimes.

I'm sorry, but: No. They aren't.
I've studied creative writing for years now, under very different teachers, and equally different methods. But all agreed on this one point: vast and detailed descriptions are never a good thing.
They slow down the story, play havoc with pacing, and break the flow of reading.

[Silvertongue]

I have to agree with the description thing. I like my books to have a decent pace, not drag and take up entire pages with their descriptions.

I still don't really understand that Plot Pattern thing.

For me, a good book is one that I can fall into and not even realise somebody is talking to me because I feel like I'm there or AM that character. I like to use books to get away from reality. I didn't notice anyone around me for hours while reading OOTP until my mum literally hit me on the head to get my attention. She'd apparently been talking to me for 10 minutes without realising I hadn't heard a word.

[readingwizard4]

Okay I see your point I think. Is it the same as world building? Because Lord of the Rings has that and it's good. I know of Moby Dick but what other stories are there so I can get some idea

Oh the Hero's Journey and the Aristotle thing. I understand what those are now. I forgot about those and didn't link them to that.

[Ithiarel]

Jun 28, 2012 13:11:27 GMT -5 Silvertongue said:

I still don't really understand that Plot Pattern thing.

Okay. Let me try again...
The most traditional pattern I know is Aristotle's 3-Act-Structure. I covered that in school, so I think you should have done that, too.
This traditional structure is made up of three clearly identifiable acts:
the first act serving as the introduction,
the second act serving as rising tension in the plot,
the third act serving as the resolution (or dénouement).
Now, within this traditional pattern each act has certain funtions that need to be observed:

Act 1: sets up the story and gives the information the reader needs to understand what's what. It sets mood and tone, so that the reader knows what to expect. It has an incitint event, that draws the reader into the story. It also introduces a serious problem (or alternatively a main characters goal), so that the reader knows what is at risk. It should introduce the villain or any other opposing force within the story. It must also introduce all main characters. And it ends with a turning point, where the story is taken into a new direction.

Example Star Wars:
Act 1: Luke finds the two droids and takes them home. He hears the princess' call for help (inciting event), he goes to Obi Wan for help (introduce Obi Wan), he declines to leave, he goes home and finds his family dead (introduce villain), he decides to accompany Obi Wan, they go to the town and meet Han and Chewy (introduce Han and Chewy). Then, they leave the planet (turning point).

Act 2: Is mostly made up off escalation and rising tension. The problem intensifies, the hero may have a temporary triumph, which is immediately followed by a reversal of luck. This is usually followed by a dark moment in the story, where the reader fears for the survival of the hero. And the act ends with yet another turning point.

Example Star Wars:
Act 2: Luke is send for training with yoda (escalation phase; problem intensifies because we see, Luke is really not good at the whole Jedi thing); Luke learns to control his powers somewhat, but runs off to save the princess before his training is finished (more escalation). They sneak into the Death Star and free Princess Leia (temporary triumph). But they are noticed and the bad guys hunt them through the ship (Reversal). Somehow Luke ends up in the trash recycler (dark moment, because it really looks as if he might die there). Then, they manage to escape but Obi Wan sacrifices himself in order to allow that (turning point, because now the mentor is dead, and the hero is all alone).

Act 3: It consists of the hero facing the final obstacle, which may test him in all possible ways. Then comes the climax of the story, where the hero traditionally faces off against the villain. And finally the resolution, where all loose ends are tied up (except if you are planning to write a sequel).

Example Star Wars:
Act 3: Luke and the rebels plan to attack the Death Star, but Han Solo decides he's had enough and leaves them to their fate (final obstacle; Luke understands he is alone and can't rely on his friends in this). The rebels fly their attack on the Death Star, Han returns and Luke destroys the Death Star (climax). Luke and Han are awarded medals for their heroism, etc. (resolution).

This is the most basic of all plot patterns. Other patterns vary in emphasis on acts, and on what is part of the act.
E.g. A repetition based patetrn might repeat a story in each of it's acts:
Examples:
"Run Lola Run" - where Lola lives through the hour before her boyfriend dies, again and again, trying to save him. Each walk-through makes up one act of the overall story, but is itself made up of three acts.
"Rashomon" - where a detective tries to find out the truth about a crime and each witness retells the event (each in different ways).

Does that make it clearer?

[readingwizard4]

We covered it in High School but I forgot what is was. It's been awhile since I've had an English class in college as well. Thank you for clearing that up.

[Silvertongue]

Yep! Much clearer thanks! And I did sort of learn that Aristotle' 3-Act-Structure thing in school but I was never told that it had a name. It was just telling us as kids how a good book should read.

[Ithiarel]

Yeah. I think most schools do that, because they want the students to learn how to analyse texts, not write them themselves.
And for analysis, you don't actually need to know more than that one.

But if you plot a story, and you want it to be somehow "different" and have that "special something", it's actually a good idea to read up on different structures. It's amazing what kind of ideas that can give you. ;D
And there are some really good books out there: E.g.
- "20 Master Plots and How to Build them"
- "The Story Structure Architect"
- Christopher Vogler's "The Hero's Journey"
- James Scott Bell's "Plot and Structure"