What do you think of Molly Weasley?

[ykickamoocow]

Jun 27, 2012 1:58:48 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Jun 27, 2012 1:54:04 GMT -5 melodypottersnape said:

In the books I hardly read about her having talks with Harry unlike with Sirius which simply blew my mind when she announced she was all he had and the rest of the bullcrap.
Hermione she saw even less of and had parents of her own.

Exactly. She ignored all signs of abuse (the twins told her about Harry being starved, she complained about him too thin, but still, she dismissed her sons!) and listened to Dumbledore that he was sooo safe there, even when she must have noticed that Harry wasn't treated well. Sirius, however, offered Harry a new home straight away, even before he knew anything about his home situation. Any questions who really cared more? Besides, Sirius treats Harry according to his age, Molly treats him like a baby.

I don't think Sirius or Molly are good examples of what a parent should be. We have discussed Molly but Sirius is also a poor choice as like Hermione stated Sirius tried to treat Harry like he would treat James and i remember one scene where Harry didn't like something Sirius suggested and Sirius got very petulant and rude pretty much telling Harry that his father would not be that much of a coward.

[melodypottersnape]

I'm not saying he is a good figure (Remus to me would have), but he had more of a right than Molly. Just my opinion,

[viralic1]

To be honest, I can't see Remus being a good parent. He's way too whiny, and every couple of months he would run away.

[sherza]

He's really not that whiny.

And give the guy a *little* credit? He freaked out. *I* would have, in that position.

I mean, hell. He knows just what he goes through as a werewolf. I don't blame him for not wanting to put someone in the position of having to deal with the prejudice, hatred, and general melodrama that would come with dating or, god forbid, marrying a werewolf.

And he has a legitimate concern about passing his condition off to his kid, to boot.

So yeah, he freaked the hell out. But he got over it on both occasions, got his shit together, and did the right thing.

Not everyone is going to be perfectly reasonable at all times and under all conditions. Aside from his twitchiness about Tonks and his kid having to deal with the werewolf issue, Remus is remarkably level-headed and mature.

As for him not contacting Harry ... for all we know, that was at Dumbledore's direct request. It's one of the questions that, so far as I know, JKR has never answered.

[viralic1]

Still, I've always been a bit touchy when parents abandon their children. But in the end, he's doing the same thing Dumbledore did to Harry. He's making choices without really thinking them through. And besides, even if he was trying to spare them the shame of being married to a werewolf, then why did he marry Tonks? Even if he runs out, Lupin is still her last name. And why does no one really think of Tonks in that situation? Seeing the man she loves run away had to take some toll on her, especially when he calls their marriage "a mistake."

[sherza]

Remus is NOTHING like Dumbledore. At all.

Remus *panicked*. He's spent his entire damn life, almost, having to be hyper aware of his conditon and how it can impact the people around him, both the danger of infection and things like ... oh, earning enough money to get by on? Because of that, he initially tried to push Tonks off, but fell in love anyway, and she smacked him upside the head (possibly literally), so he got his man-pants back on and married her, because she was right, it was her choice and she was a big girl and could handle it.

But then the kid thing came up and he freaked out again, because this time, it wasn't an adult who could fend for herself ... it was a baby. Who could possibly be *born* with this shit. And if not, would have a werewolf for a father. And be a kid, who would have to hear all the bullshit the idiots of the world spewed at them. Not a fun thing to contemplate for your child, either way. And he freaked. TEMPORARILY. Harry bawled him out, he got his head on straight, and went back.

The only time I know of him saying the marriage was a mistake, was to Harry, and in reference to the kid thing. When he was freaking the hell out. I don't know about anyone else, but when I'm freaking out, my mouth does not stop to check in with my brain before it says things.

[Kitty279]

Jun 27, 2012 2:10:02 GMT -5 ykickamoocow said:

I don't think Sirius or Molly are good examples of what a parent should be. We have discussed Molly but Sirius is also a poor choice as like Hermione stated Sirius tried to treat Harry like he would treat James and i remember one scene where Harry didn't like something Sirius suggested and Sirius got very petulant and rude pretty much telling Harry that his father would not be that much of a coward.

Personally, I never saw the problem with treating Harry like James - because it would mean that Sirius respected Harry as someone old enough to talk with on an equal basis. Molly, of course, would highly resent that, if she had her will, she'd probably lock the kids in a playpen so they can stay innocent and naive. And Hermione looks up to Molly. Actually, these comments didn't do anything for me than making me angry at Molly and Hermione.

That incident wasn't Sirius's best moment, true, but I would give him some leeway because he was so depressed. If I were locked up in that house after everything, I'd probably have that sort of reaction, too, in the end.

Sirius may still be a bit immature at times, but at least he tried his best to help Harry, to protect him, and he was for telling him more (which was denied, which in turn cost his own life). Molly didn't bother beyond stuffing Harry with food he shouldn't have been able to stomach in the first place.

Remus wouldn't be a better parent, either - too much worried about his condition, and still feeling obligated to Dumbledore for allowing him to go to school (which should be a basic right!) and always ready to abandon Harry. He never bothered to keep in contact, neither before nor after third year.

[sherza]

Like I said, before third year, for all we know, the lack of communication was at Dumbledore's request. Or he did send letters but they got diverted. It's not like Harry got any mail from anyone else that had to have written him over the years! His Hogwarts letter was the first he received. That right there tells me someone was diverting his mail, because unless the wizarding world is completely ... weird ... celebrities get a shitload of fanmail. And I'm quite sure that *some* friends of Lily's survived the bloodbath, along with Remus (and I'm sure Remus was not the only friend of James' that was alive and free to write, either!) ... yet, nothing.

After third year, he was probably a) trying to find work, which, with the anti-werewolf laws that cropped up, proved to be ridiculously difficult in the wizarding world, and not much easier in the muggle one, since he'd need a couple days off every 28 days.
b) Helping Sirius, who was ... in rather bad shape. c) doing stuff at Dumbledore's request.

[Kitty279]

I can accept the part before third year, but he didn't even say anything to Harry during the time they were at school together, Harry only found out accidentally that Remus knew his parents.

After that, no, for me it's not an excuse. How long takes it to write a few lines now and then? He wasn't helping Sirius during GoF, either, it was just Harry sending food to Sirius (did Dumbledore ever bother?? I think it was mentioned that he suggested the cave?). And to the hell with Dumbledore, Harry's as important than these stupid werewolves. And if it was once again on Dumbledore's orders not to contact Harry, then Remus should have ignored the old coot. We know the old codger did nothing to help Harry cope with his experiences in any way, and obviously even kept the few adults away Harry would have talked to. Another reason why I hate the old man.

And frankly, it annoys me how Remus puts Dumbledore's needs over Harry's all the time.

[sherza]

Remus is hardly the only one that obeyed Dumbledore's decrees. The *entire* Order kept silent about the Prophecy on his order, remember, and guarded Privet Drive, but never intervened on Harry's behalf (don't try to tell me the Dursleys didn't hurt Harry during that time period!) ... again, most likely on Dumbledore's order.

And think of it this way. Remus is a werewolf. If he defies Dumbledore ... who is the Head Mugwump etc etc ... he could VERY quickly find himself locked up in Azkaban or dead (if Dumbledore were to play hardball). Remus was in a very difficult position.

[viralic1]

Besides, would you listen to some old man over your best friends son? Remus is part of a group of PRANKSTERS. You know, the people who tend not to listen if someone tells them to do something they don't like. If one of my friends ever has a child, and someone else tells me not to see them again, I don't care how important they may think they are, I sure as hell wouldn't listen to them. To me, it's a clear cut case of Remus deciding he wants to honor Dumbledore's wishes more than the wishes of his dead best friend.

[Kitty279]

Sherza, that's exactly my problem with the Order as a whole. They were supposed to fight Voldemort, but all they did was holding meetings and gathering information, guarding the prophecy and following Harry around (not that either was of any use). That's not doing anything to stop Voldemort. Dumbledore wasted not only one year, but many - as far as we know, he was already Chief Warlock during the first war and did nothing to enforce Veritaserum etc. for the Death Eaters, but let them willingly off, or even intervened on their behalf. No backbone at all. Sometimes I really wonder if ANYTHING changed after the second war.

No, I am with Viralic here - Remus should have ignored Dumbledore. He could have talked to Harry without the old codger knowing. And damn, there's NO reason whatsoever why he couldn't contact him after third year! Frankly, if Dumbledore had threatened him that way (Azkaban), then that would be beyond disgusting. He wouldn't be any better than Fudge. But then, he threw Sirius into Azkaban without questioning and trial, so no, the old man isn't any better anyway.

[ykickamoocow]

Jun 27, 2012 3:13:09 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Personally, I never saw the problem with treating Harry like James - because it would mean that Sirius respected Harry as someone old enough to talk with on an equal basis. Molly, of course, would highly resent that, if she had her will, she'd probably lock the kids in a playpen so they can stay innocent and naive. And Hermione looks up to Molly. Actually, these comments didn't do anything for me than making me angry at Molly and Hermione.

I disagree. In fact Sirius was showing Harry very little respect by treating him like James as he was doing exactly what Snape was doing only from a different end. Both Sirius and Snape treated Harry like he was James and treating a person like another person is not respecting them.

[viralic1]

Jun 27, 2012 5:41:22 GMT -5 ykickamoocow said:

Jun 27, 2012 3:13:09 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Personally, I never saw the problem with treating Harry like James - because it would mean that Sirius respected Harry as someone old enough to talk with on an equal basis. Molly, of course, would highly resent that, if she had her will, she'd probably lock the kids in a playpen so they can stay innocent and naive. And Hermione looks up to Molly. Actually, these comments didn't do anything for me than making me angry at Molly and Hermione.

I disagree. In fact Sirius was showing Harry very little respect by treating him like James as he was doing exactly what Snape was doing only from a different end. Both Sirius and Snape treated Harry like he was James and treating a person like another person is not respecting them.

The thing is Sirius didn't treat Harry like James, he treated Harry like an adult. Molly Weasley just decided she knows what is best for everyone, and doesn't know how to shut up.

[Kitty279]

Jun 27, 2012 5:41:22 GMT -5 ykickamoocow said:

I disagree. In fact Sirius was showing Harry very little respect by treating him like James as he was doing exactly what Snape was doing only from a different end. Both Sirius and Snape treated Harry like he was James and treating a person like another person is not respecting them.

So, if you think treating him like an adult is disrespect, what would you call Molly, who treats Harry like a baby and Sirius not any better? She lived with nearly her whole family in *Sirius's* house in safety, but still was nasty and insulting to him and attacked him for not babying the children. For me *that* is disrespecting others.

[Silvertongue]

I think he treated Harry like an adult but had momentary lapses where his mind stuck in the past (Mom battle) and he thought he was duelling with James. But when he said to Harry "you're nothing like James" because Harry was telling him to stay safe and not come to Hogsmeade (if I remember correctly), I think he was unwittingly releasing his frustration and being locked in Grimmauld on Harry. I don't think he'd ever thought of Harry as James, truly.

[ykickamoocow]

I found the part of the story that to me shows Sirius is very immature and not really fit to be a legal guardian

"I would, I just don't want you chucked back in Azkaban!" said Harry.

There was a pause in which Sirius looked out of the fire at Harry, a crease between his sunken eyes.

"You're less like your father than I thought," he said finally, a definite coolness in his voice. "The risk would've been what made it fun for James."

"Look -"

"Well, I'd better get going, I can hear Kreacher coming down the stairs," said Sirius, but Harry was sure he was lying. "I'll write to tell you a time I can make it back into the fire, then, shall I? If you can stand to risk it?"

There was a tiny pop, and the place where Sirius's head had been was flickering flame once more.

Now i am not saying that Molly was a good parent either but i am saying that i don't think Sirius would have been a good parent (neither is Molly).

[Kitty279]

As was already said, there he probably took out his own frustration on Harry after practically having exchanged one prison for another. In GoF he did a good job in giving advice, so I don't think he was as bad as this one incident makes him out to be. I'd still rather chose him over Molly because he at least realises that mollycoddling doesn't do anything for safety.

[Silvertongue]

Not at that point in time anyway.

[physicssquid]

I think Sirius believes in the phrase, 'While Ignorance May Be Bliss, Knowledge is Power'. I believe in that too.

[melodypottersnape]

lol. I didn't know that saying Remus had more of a right than Molly would cause such an reaction. Though my reason because he took the time to get to know Harry unlike Molly. Sirius because the mental instability caused by aszkaban and never seeing a healer after.

[Kitty279]

LOL, when the Marauders, Snape and a few others are concerned, discussions can get quite heated. Once I was lurking in another HP forum, and let's just say I wasn't entirely joking when I used to say that in that sort of thread the mods must have done double duty all around the clock with clubs raised to keep arguing members off each others throats. In comparison, we are still rather peaceful.

But I understand where you come from, and I could even agree with Remus over Molly. Still prefering Sirius, of course , but usually I'd take Remus over Molly, too.

[readingwizard4]

Sirius was in Azkaban for 12 with Dementors that forced him to relive the moment of when he found James and Lily and whatever other horrors he experienced. The dementors probably caused his memories to be warped as well. How is he going to get over 12 years of that in 3 years? He's not. I see it as a coping mechanism. A good coping mechanism? Perhaps not but did Dumbledore do anything to help Sirius? From the sounds of it no he did not. In one RtB fanfic series (can't remember which one) Dumbledore told Sirius he kept him in GP to keep him safe so he could help Harry later on in the war effort. How is he supposed to help Harry if he isn't healed or is told off? It wouldn't surprise me if Dumbledore wanted to get Sirius out of the way so Harry could still be his sacrificial lamb. Since Dumbledore didn't do anything after Halloween 1981 or at the end of 3rd year I'm convinced of this. With Sirius still in the picture that won't happen. Azkaban didn't effect Sirius years 3 or 4 since he had clear cut missions both years. Year 5 took a step back since he was stuck in his childhood home and no one but Remus and Tonks I'd imagine stood up for him. Snape and Molly were always on his case and Dumbledore probably told Sirius off when he tried to defend himself. Molly hated that Sirius wanted to treat Harry and the rest of the kids as adults. Why not treat them as teenagers? Give them info but not everything. Also since they were in a Wizarding Home why couldn't the kids use magic? Sirius wanted to protect him but Molly did not. How on earth can a Dark Wizard that tried and failed to kill him at 15 months and most recently at 14 years old (those being the only ones she knew about. The Riddle memory doesn't count) give up on trying to kill him? Harry is the number one target wether she likes it or not. About the floo call would any of you be more rational than Sirius was if you had lived Sirius' life? I wouldn't. Going through Azkaban, Years 3 and 4 and then staying in GP for year 5 with no outside contact I would be driven up a wall as well. Should Sirius have said that to Harry? No but it didn't stop him from coming back to tell Harry about Molly asking Ron to not go through with it. Some of you might say reckless but I see it as he really cares about Harry and his friends. I don't think Sirius held it against him after he thought about it. How many of you have said things you regret? At GP at christmas Harry and Sirius talk the night they get there and in the movie before Harry leaves to go back to Hogwarts. Then Sirius goes off to the DOM to rescue Harry. Sirius did more in that book than Molly did that's for sure. I also hated how Hermione went along with Molly. She understood that Voldemort wanted to kill Harry and that an adult wanted to support them. They should have been elated since the adults the first 4 years of school did nothing.

[Silvertongue]

Oh yeah, I've seen some huge debates in real life over the HP books. Usually over whether Ron is a good friend or not, or whether Gryffindor or Slytherin is the cooler house (note: not better, cooler).

[Kitty279]

Well said, readingwizard4! You summed up my thoughts and feelings very well. Under the circumstances - struggling with the aftereffects of Azkaban, hunted by the whole muggle and magical world - Sirius did rather well. He could have stayed in the south in the fourth year, but he came back to help Harry at great personal risk. Not something Molly did. And like you said, Dumbledore did nothing to help. (I'm still convinced he should have been able to enforce a trial - he was the Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot and Supreme Mugwump of the ICW, for Merlin's sake, why can he not force a Minister to do his duty? Why is it the Minister to decide that sort of stuff without bothering to include the DMLE? It doesn't make sense!) But then, he didn't help Harry, either.

As for Hermione, she still thought Dumbledore could do no wrong, so if Dumbledore said it, Molly was right to enforce it. Plus, she is as bossy and interfering as Molly and might have seen her way to deal with everyone as right, who knows? For someone who reads so much, she has amazingly little knowledge of psychology, or she would have recognised the problems Sirius was struggling with. So I had the impression that no one really bothered to consider even for a few moments what the poor guy needed and why he did what he did.

[readingwizard4]

I think it would have helped Sirius if he decided to make a couple trips south or away from England during the summer or year over 5th year to clear his head but Dumbledore probably didn't want to take the risk and Snape would gloat and Molly would tell him off.

[Kitty279]

Yes, he should have gotten out. Never understood why he couldn't at least go into Muggle areas under a glamour. There was not much of a risk of someone noticing the glamour, and he could have gotten out. He must have had cabin fever on top of everything - was he not long enough locked up? But no, Dumbledore wanted total control, and of course, Snape with his baiting and Molly treating him like an insolent child because he wanted some control over his own life didn't help. It made me so angry - and I blame them as much as Kreacher for Sirius's death. If he had been able to get out a bit, he might have been calmer and Harry might have used the mirror ...

[G. Novella]

See, I don't understand the idea that Sirius was the perfect parent. I love Sirius, I won't deny that. But the guy's got a whole lot of reckless in him before and after Azkaban. I won't deny that he had potential and could have done a great job raising Harry, but I think he had a few major flaws.

1) His turning to alcohol in depression

That really angered me. I can understand that being trapped in his childhood home drove him mad. I can get that he's still suffering from Azkaban. Yet, he chose to turn to drink when things turned bad. Maybe it's because I have experience with an alcoholic uncle who pretty much ruined his family's life, but the idea of anyone turning to alcohol in grief is equal to dangerous in my eyes. He was ruining himself even further instead of trying to pick things up. That's not something Harry should have had to deal with at any point, whether it's fifth year, or as a child. I'm not saying that Sirius always turned to alcohol to help, or would have, but when everything was crumbling for Sirius, and he made the choice to alcohol, instead of asking Remus or Tonks or someone to get him help... that was a major turn off.

2) Rash thinking (I won't say Molly doesn't either)

Sirius tends to think rashly. It's undeniable when he tore up the Fat Lady's portrait in book three, came straight back from wherever he was in book four, went after Peter with a giant knife, etc. He tends to not use his head when his emotions run high, and that's not a good parent idea. He tends to disregard the rules a bit too often in my opinion and though the rules are stupid in a few cases, at least use the rules to your benefit instead of breaking them and getting in trouble.

Those two are my current reasons for seeing Sirius as a bad parent. I'd write more, but having just woken up and wanting to peruse through more threads, I'll come back.

I won't deny that Sirius loved Harry, was a great guy, but I don't think he's the poster parent for anything. He had a lot of flaws that need to be worked through, a lot of growing up to do, and well, he wasn't ready to handle being a parent. No parent is perfect. Molly and Sirius both aren't poster parents. They were both good parents in some ways, and bad parents in other ways. But to say one is better than the other, well, they're somewhat incomparable.

Molly grew up as a mother. Married at nineteen with a kid, no education, no job. She was sheltered from an entire war. Sirius fought in a war, experienced betrayals, but was entirely reckless and rash growing up, got chucked in Azkaban, and lost something (I can't describe what it was, maybe he got more rash, less happy, a mixture of both, less sane, something) that I'm not entirely sure he could have gotten back and raised Harry at the same time.

[readingwizard4]

Now I have the scene from Muppet Treasure Island in my head where the characters are singing Cabin Fever on the ship ha ha lol. I wish that Harry opened the gift just to see what it was regardlessly of if he was going to use it or not. Pity Sirius didn't find it earlier. Harry could have used it 4th year and the beginning of 5th year. Molly and Snape deserve blame in this just like Dumbledore and Kreacher. I don't blame Harry at all. He did what Sirius would do for him and what Lily and James would do for the two of them.

Another point against Molly is that she put down Harry's guardian (the one Lily and James picked, not that Molly probably cared) and one of the last links to Harry's Parents in front of Harry. That is just wrong. Sirius and Molly could have made a great team working together in raising Harry if they sat down and settled their differences.

[Kitty279]

He wasn't the perfect parent, no. But I firmly believe that, if he had gotten custody, he'd have focused on Harry, like he did in GoF, and that he spiralled down because no one helped him and he was forced to feel useless and to take everything Snape and Molly threw at him. Had Dumbledore done his damn duty and gotten him a trial, he could have sought out a healer to help him over his issues.

While he was rash in his own actions, he at the other hand cautioned Harry against doing the same, remember? To me it shows that he would have pulled himself more together if he had gotten custody.