Your thoughts on Dumbledore....

[Kitty279]

Yes. Personally, I sometimes wonder how many deaths can be laid on his doorstep. Seeing how he got Death Eaters off the hook or allowed it, didn't check the Order for the traitor (have you ever considered that it could have been Pettigrew who betrayed Gideon and Fabian or others and got them killed?) and how he sat back and waited for his pawn to grow up instead of doing something ...

Really - even if he believed the prophecy was valid and Harry needed to kill Voldemort - can you explain to me why the old codger couldn't be bothered to take care of the Horcruxes himself ASAP?? If most of them had been found and destroyed earlier, would the war have escalated that much?

Which reminds me of my own opinion of the prophecy ... might be worth a new thread.

[Ithiarel]

Deathly Hallows at least drove one point home for me:
I preferred Gellert over Albus.
Not just because I have a thing for bad guys, but also because he seemed like a rather honest guy to me (as far as Dark Lords go). He was very clear and open about what he wanted to achieve anyway. Something Dumbledore never was (and probably never could be).

And I think, he never learned the most valuable lesson that you just got to swallow as the oldest sibling: Your younger siblings are usually right. I have no problem admitting that my yuonger sister is a lot more sensible and practical than I am.
If Albus could just have learned that fundamental lesson of life, and have listened to Aberforth on occasion, things might have gone very different. Because when all is said and done, I believe that Aberforth truly liked Harry and was genuinely worried about him... And considering Abe's experience of dealing with Arianna, he could have been a great help in dealing with an emotionally scarred child like Harry... *sigh*

[readingwizard4]

I wish in a read the book fic when the group gets to the Lightning Struck Tower chapter someone would call out Dumbledore about letting Malfoy run free and having Ron and Katie almost get killed. Malfoy got a chance at redemption. Harry should have been pissed at Dumbledore for that but that got glossed over and Harry named his kid after him. Harry should have just left England after that. I would have. Then again Harry had no parental figure (Sirius would have I think) that would make Harry leave England. I'm surprised Molly didn't order everyone to leave the country.

[kumainpink]

Why would Molly order everyone to leave? She's too far up Dumbledore's bum to have a mind of her own. >=[

I agree with what everyone is saying, overall.

You know, I didn't realize how much hatred/dislike/annoyance Dumbledore causes us readers until I started this thread...

[Kitty279]

Jun 15, 2012 16:00:38 GMT -5 kumainpink said:

Why would Molly order everyone to leave? She's too far up Dumbledore's bum to have a mind of her own. >=[

I agree with what everyone is saying, overall.

You know, I didn't realize how much hatred/dislike/annoyance Dumbledore causes us readers until I started this thread...

Same here. As I said, we are trying to write something, and I always end up wanting to kick him to the moon and back. It's hard to keep the bashing at a reasonable level, because he annoys me so much.

And you're right about Molly. Besides, they are completely safe at Hogwarts, right? Never mind all the near-death experiences and attempts on Harry's life!

[kumainpink]

And Ginny's near-death experience! If I was their mother, I'd have pulled all of my kids out of Hogwarts for allowing this to happen!

[Kitty279]

But you know, Dumbledore has everything under control, and Molly would believe that rubbish.

[kumainpink]

It's disgusting how well he has everyone wrapped around his wrinkled fingers! Truly and utterly disgusting!

[Ithiarel]

Jun 15, 2012 16:18:43 GMT -5 kumainpink said:

It's disgusting how well he has everyone wrapped around his wrinkled fingers! Truly and utterly disgusting!

That seems to be based in the nature of the Wizarding World though, doesn't it?
To me, wizards appear like sheep. Always following other's opinions and never really thinking things through. It must have been incredibly easy for someone like Dumbledore to become a leading figure for such a society. Perhaps it was so easy, he wasn't even aware that it had happened until he already had all the influence (he is supposed to have)...

[kumainpink]

You raise a good point... wizards are sheep.



I have no shame...

[Silvertongue]

Dumbledore should be more like Magical Trevor. He's way cooler. And ignore this post because I am tipsy.

[kumainpink]

Silver, you've just made my night awesome XD

[sherza]

Again with the reading fanfic and yet another Dumbledore fubar getting brought to mind.

Let's talk second year, shall we?

No, not the basilisk. The victims.

Colin was Petrified for almost the entire school year. Justin, nearly as long. Hermione and Penelope both got nailed for a COUPLE MONTHS.

1) You're telling me that absolutely nowhere else in the world has adult mandrakes, or better yet, the restorative itself already made?

2) Four kids lost, at the very least, two months of their schooling. In Colin's case, almost the entire year. You're telling me he was thrown into third year despite that? Justin and Penelope were in as deep shit, since Justin was petrified nearly as long as Colin, and Penelope was in her OWL year! Hermione at least MIGHT have been capable of catching up ... she's frighteningly smart ... but still.

WTF.

[Kitty279]

So far I have seen only one story where they got some Mandrakes from elsewhere - and even that was only after Sirius put the thumbscrews on them (in that story he got freed in the process and then went on to kick that school into a school instead of Dumbledore's political playground ("Overdue Protection" by PadyandMoony).

Don't you get the feeling Dumbledore tried to sweep it under the carpet? Besides, the whole thing didn't make any sense. Seeing that Fudge had "to be seen doing something", it seems the news leaked out. So, why on earth didn't parents storm the school, taking their children away? And I already said, they should have brought in the DMLE after the attack on Colin at the latest. It seems keeping up the appearance that Hogwarts is the best school to ever grace the universe is more important than anyone's life.

[kumainpink]

I don't get it myself either, Kitty. It's a real headscratcher.

[Ithiarel]

Jun 17, 2012 0:51:17 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

It seems keeping up the appearance that Hogwarts is the best school to ever grace the universe is more important than anyone's life.

That is a very good point. I never really thought about it before now, but it does look as if not only the teachers are sufefring from that illusion, does it?

Until now, I thought it was just Dumbledore nad the teachers trying desperately to uphold the "Hogwarts fame", but now that sherza pointed it out... it seems as if the whole wizarding world of Britain suffers from it.
Perhaps they've all been brainwashed by Dumbledore to believe that this is the normal state of affairs. He's been Headmaster of Hogwarts for a very long time (long enough to have seen most of wizarding Britain go through their schooling - including the current Hogwarts teachers) and who knows how long stuff like this has been happening at the school. We only ever see those years that Harry had been there. Who knows what went on in the years before that (and was never reported back home by the students then, who would grow up and accept it as the "normal Hogwarts experience").

Did you notice that only a handful of wizards/witches in the books were older than Dumbledore? Or nearly as old? And most of them seemed quite different in their laissez-faire attitude than the younger ones. Perhaps Slughorn just agreed to come back to Hogwarts to see for himself, what Dumbledore had been up to? (but in the time honoured fashion of a Slytherin he made it seem as if he had a different reason)

[Kitty279]

Honestly, sometimes I don't know what to think. Sure, it were only Harry and his friends who knew what exactly was going on, and the others had to rely on rumours. But rumours can get worse than the actual truth. Am I supposed to believe that no one of the students talked about all that stuff at home? Just one example, Seamus' mother wanted to pull him out of Hogwarts just because Dumbledore and Harry were slandered in the paper, though she didnt even believe that Voldemort was back. But on the other hand, she saw no reason to pull him out after the basilisk and other incidents? Does that even make any sense?

Your theory has merits - who knows what happened over the years. Though how people can think Hogwarts was the safest place, I'll never understand. In any case, it would prove that Dumbledore used the school as his political playground for way too long if people had gotten so used to it.

And why got Fudge away with the Dementors around the school? As a parent, I'd have protested that he subjected my child to something like that. Why should the parents accept it? Is an escaped convict - who is just rumoured to head to Hogwarts - more dangerous than a hundred Dementors, which the Ministry doesn't have under control as much as they thought? Why weren't they removed after they got onto the Quidditch pitch during that game? What if Dumbledore hadn't been there? How many students could have been kissed? And still, everyone took that in stride? Strange.

[Ithiarel]

Jun 17, 2012 4:19:24 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Your theory has merits - who knows what happened over the years. Though how people can think Hogwarts was the safest place, I'll never understand.

Who knows what kind of stories circulate about the other magic schools? Rumours can be nasty.
And Draco mentioned that his parents had thought about sending him to Durmstrang - who knows if their foremost reason was really the curriculum.

Jun 17, 2012 4:19:24 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

And why got Fudge away with the Dementors around the school? Why should the parents accept it? Is an escaped convict - who is just rumoured to head to Hogwarts - more dangerous than a hundred Dementors, which the Ministry doesn't have under control as much as they thought? Why weren't they removed after they got onto the Quidditch pitch during that game? What if Dumbledore hadn't been there? How many students could have been kissed? And still, everyone took that in stride? Strange.

Wizards.Are.Dumb.Sheep.
Personally, I think that the only parents who might have protested (because they have a sensible head on their shoulders) were muggles. And they are always told that (a) they don't really understand what the wizarding way is, and (b) mostly half-truths or nothing at all.

Even Hermione admitted that she kept most of the stuff happening at Hogwarts a secret from her parents, for fear that they might pull her out of school. I'm certain that most other muggleborn students did the same - the peer pressure at Hogwarts is extreme.

[Kitty279]

Good question. Sadly, we know very little about Durmstrang and Beauxbaton. The latter seem to have had some prejudices, but that might be because they were used to a different climate and all. In comparison to France, Scotland is harsh in winter. Then it's easy to complain about everything. What other prejudices were existing, who knows?

They are indeed. You know, Dumbledore should have kicked Snape out and told him to use his talents rather to develop a potion that injects some common sense into people. But of course, the leader of the light wouldn't have wanted them to wise up, or they might not have worshipped at his altar any longer.

Btw, what do you think about the possibility that Dumbledore kept Binns just because he was only going on about goblin wars and sometimes giant wars? It's the one class where I could imagine them talking about where certain laws came from and why, giving them a more political savvy background. Or they should have had a special class for that.

[kumainpink]

I support that possibility! Given what we know about the man, it makes a lot of sense.

[Ithiarel]

Jun 17, 2012 4:47:52 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Btw, what do you think about the possibility that Dumbledore kept Binns just because he was only going on about goblin wars and sometimes giant wars? It's the one class where I could imagine them talking about where certain laws came from and why, giving them a more political savvy background. Or they should have had a special class for that.

The history class really irked me.
I took history as an advanced course during my Abitur, so the disparaging attitude the teachers and students showed towards that class in HP always bothered me to no end.
Even if Dumbles didn't want to exorcise Binns, what would have stopped him from creating a second class for advanced students? Let Binns teach the first and second years (they might actually need a class that offers them spare time to get aclimated in their new environment), and then hire another teacher to teach history for years three and up.

Another peeve of mine is: Why was there no Ethics class? Or some kind of Philosphy class. You know, the wizarding class that would fill in for our Religious Instrucions/Ethics/Philosophy.
That would have been sensible. Especially because a class like that would have gone a long way towards teaching the students some common social skills, and might have functioned in a mediator role.

I'm fairly certain that the classes at Hogwarts were chosen specifically to teach the students what people (i.e. the Headmaster) wanted them to learn.

Why wasn't Arithmancy obligatory? So that the majority of students never developed a sense of logic? (it's the equivalent for math after all)

Why did they not have any literature classes? Or foreign language classes? Or anything that might come in handy should they apply for a job outside of the Wizarding World?

[Kitty279]

They didn't need to exorcise Binns, no, it would have been enough to just not allow him to teach any longer, or change the classroom and allow him to hold his classes to an empty room. He never seems to really notice his students anyway. Though I could accept him teaching the first and maybe second class.

What I missed was to make Muggle studies mandatory - for the purebloods and wizard-raised halfbloods. Really, they are supposed to blend in to uphold the Statue of Secrecy, but couldn't do that to save their lives!
In turn, introduce Wizard studies for the Muggleborn and muggle-raised children, so they learn more about how this new world works.
But of course, that would threaten the almighty power of the purebloods and prove that, with the same basic knowledge, the muggleborn could easily outperform them everywhere. And of course, as you said, Dumbledore wanted them to be malleable and don't get independent ideas.

[kumainpink]

I'm under the impression that many of the other magic schools laugh at how pathetic Hogwarts is.

[Ithiarel]

Jun 17, 2012 5:20:08 GMT -5 kumainpink said:

I'm under the impression that many of the other magic schools laugh at how pathetic Hogwarts is.

Yes, that's what I thought too, when I read about the arrival of the Beauxbatons and Durmstrang students.

Do you think that Hogwarts is the only magical school in Britain (and around it)? It would explain so much about how no one noticed the falling standards... there might have been no immediate other institution to compare it to.

I always felt that Beauxbatons would be in southern France (because of the students seemingly used to lots of warm weather), and Durmstrang is clearly a far way off too.

Do you think home-taught students in Britain fare better on their NEWTS than Hogwarts schooled ones?

[Kitty279]

Oh, forgot something about Binns - what happens with the salary the History teacher is due?

As for homeschooled students, I guess that depends on the teachers. If they do their job right, I could easily see that. Imagine Harry would have been taught by Remus and Sirius? Contrary to, say, Goldilocks and the pink toad?

[Silvertongue]

I think Binns' salary would stay in the school's kitty, though I can easily see Dumbledore diverting it into his own account for the "war efforts".

[Kitty279]

My thought exactly ...

[Silvertongue]

I don't know what Rowling was thinking when she thought up the educational system. Why do they only get letters from Hogwarts? How do people decide to send their children elsewhere if they don't receive letters from them? Or if they are in a different country and want to come to Hogwarts but didn't get a letter, how does that work? Do they have to pay then?

[Kitty279]

Good question. Maybe it works geographically, all children from a certain area are automatically sorted into a certain school, and if they want to go elsewhere, they have to actively seek that out?

[Silvertongue]

I guess that makes sense. I still don't understand why she chose the subjects she did. And how some things were optional and others weren't.