The infamous Prophecy

[Kitty279]

Oh well, he's not the brightest anyway. You know what I'd dearly like to know? How many of the Death Eaters were killed by Aurors and other light forces, and how many did Moldyshorts kill himself with his temper tantrums? He might have been his own worst enemy.

[kumainpink]

Not only has Voldie not read the handbook, I doubt he has the ability to follow it. He's too self-absorbed and selfish! Just like a whinging little bratty child!

[Kitty279]

*snickers and bookmarks* No, he definitely didn't read it beforehand. Actually, he's disregarding most of the rules I have read so far. Thanks for the laugh, Ithiarel!

[Ithiarel]

Jun 16, 2012 6:22:34 GMT -5 kumainpink said:

Not only has Voldie not read the handbook, I doubt he has the ability to follow it. He's too self-absorbed and selfish! Just like a whinging little bratty child!

He might have done well having a five-year old advisor... heck, he might have done well having Harry as advisor.

Seriously, sometimes I wonder what he would have done, had he understood that Harry was a horcrux. But at that point in his personyl history he was to insane to even contemplate that possibility, I guess...

You know what I'd dearly like to know? How many of the Death Eaters were killed by Aurors and other light forces, and how many did Moldyshorts kill himself with his temper tantrums? He might have been his own worst enemy.

Yes. I think so too.
At least in his post-1981 version he was too insane. I don't think he was rationally thinking at all. It always seemed to me that he just went along with every spontanous impulse he felt.

Perhaps the whole horcrux-making does more than devide the soul. It actually devides the common sense, too. ;D

[kumainpink]

That's been my head canon for quite some time now. As Voldemort lost more of himself, it seemed only natural that he became more unstable.

I think that Voldemort would have been more formidable WITHOUT making Horcruxes.

[sherza]

And all of this is in his second run.

greater and more terrible my ass.

Let's just count it, shall we?

First Time:

1) spent a decade or two learning a shit-load of stuff
2) Wooed, schmoozed, and sweet-talked a crapton of people to his cause, many of them the best and brightest of their generation ... or the most ruthless and vicious.
3) Essentially ruled Magical Britain for 11 years. Even Dumbledore could only slow him down.
4) Truly only made one critical error in *believing* the dumb prophecy.

Second run:
1) Looked like a bad cross between a snake, a vampire, and a skeleton.
2) Completely batshit insane, to the point of throwing *tantrums* when he didn't get his way, and torturing his own people.
3) Forced to rely on the dregs of his followers that had survived after he got disembodied, their kids, and what little other support he could scrape up.

[kumainpink]

His golden years had long since passed...

[Kitty279]

Assumed that there was a common sense to divide in the first place!

It may have to do with the way how Horcruxes are made. Not sure how it works, if there is just a random piece broken off and put into the container, or if every time he made a horcrux, he had to split his remaining soul into half. In the latter case:

We have 7 horcruxes: ring, diadem, cup, diary, locket, Harry and Nagini.
1. Horcrux = 1/2
2. Horcrux = 1/4
3. Horcrux = 1/8
4. Horcrux = 1/16
5. Horcrux = 1/32
6. Horcrux = 1/64
7. Horcrux = 1/128
In other words, after he tried to kill baby Harry, he had only 1/64 of his soul left, and after he made Nagini one, only 1/128. It can't have done much for his sanity.

[Ithiarel]

Jun 16, 2012 6:36:29 GMT -5 sherza said:

First Time:

1) spent a decade or two learning a shit-load of stuff
2) Wooed, schmoozed, and sweet-talked a crapton of people to his cause, many of them the best and brightest of their generation ... or the most ruthless and vicious.
3) Essentially ruled Magical Britain for 11 years. Even Dumbledore could only slow him down.
4) Truly only made one critical error in *believing* the dumb prophecy.

Second run:
1) Looked like a bad cross between a snake, a vampire, and a skeleton.
2) Completely batshit insane, to the point of throwing *tantrums* when he didn't get his way, and torturing his own people.
3) Forced to rely on the dregs of his followers that had survived after he got disembodied, their kids, and what little other support he could scrape up.

And let's not forget:

First Time
5) politically savvy and with a clear goal of accumulating more power to strengthen his own (political) position.

Second Time
5) more or less completely focused on stalking a teenager (and maybe draw out killing him for as long as possible)

[kumainpink]

As I've mentioned before in another thread, I always found Voldemort's obsession with Harry beyond disturbing.

[Kitty279]

Oh, more points:
First time:
6) powerful followers like the Lestranges who got their job done

Second time:
6) for a good deal of that round, he had to rely on people like Wormtail, and frankly, I doubt Umbitch was far beyond a squib herself. She'd not have been able to teach anything more than reading the book and was useful only for being evil

[Ithiarel]

Jun 16, 2012 6:39:37 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

We have 7 horcruxes: ring, diadem, cup, diary, locket, Harry and Nagini.
1. Horcrux = 1/2
2. Horcrux = 1/4
3. Horcrux = 1/8
4. Horcrux = 1/16
5. Horcrux = 1/32
6. Horcrux = 1/64
7. Horcrux = 1/128
In other words, after he tried to kill baby Harry, he had only 1/64 of his soul left, and after he made Nagini one, only 1/128. It can't have done much for his sanity.

Wow.
Seeing those numbers really makes me wonder about the correlation between his sanity and the horcruxes now.
And considering he made tghe first horcrux (the diary) while he was still at school...
He probably spend much of his life (the years between end of school and starting to conquer Britain) in an nearly insane state already. He might not even have noticed the steady decline - or possibly didn't care about it much in later years.

It makes me wonder what a younger Voldemort (even one who has already made one or two horcruxes) might see when he looks at the final end product. It's not pretty, how far he fell.
(Marwana is writing a story exploring that - but it won't come up for a few books yet, she still in CoS - so I'm definitely looking forward to reading her take on it...)

[kumainpink]

Wow...that's really messed up...

[Ithiarel]

Jun 16, 2012 6:46:04 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Second time:
6) for a good deal of that round, he had to rely on people like Wormtail,[...]

To be fair, though. However insane Voldy was at that point, he was not insane enough to trust Wormtail:

"I need somebody with brains, somebody whose loyalty has never wavered, and you, unfortunately, fulfill neither requirement." (GoF, ch 1)

[Kitty279]

That of course assumes the soul was always split in half. But even if it wasn't that - how much of his soul was left if he just broke off random pieces? Probably still not much more ... So yes, you have to wonder when his decline into insanity truly started. No wonder he didn't have much of a control over his temper and behaved like a child throwing tantrums ...

[Kitty279]

Jun 16, 2012 6:53:43 GMT -5 Ithiarel said:

To be fair, though. However insane Voldy was at that point, he was not insane enough to trust Wormtail:

"I need somebody with brains, somebody whose loyalty has never wavered, and you, unfortunately, fulfill neither requirement." (GoF, ch 1)

Still, would you want the rat as babysitter for the ugliest baby ever?

God, that reminds me again of Driftwood1965's "The Champion's Champion". After his scenes of Wormtail babysitting the dark lord and all these lovely remarks about "evil villain restoration module" aka playpen, I just can't take baby Voldemort or babysitter Wormtail seriously any longer!

[kumainpink]

hahaha ugliest baby ever...

Now all I can think about is babymort... XD

[kumainpink]

hahaha ugliest baby ever...

Now all I can think about is babymort... XD

[Ithiarel]

Jun 16, 2012 6:59:40 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Still, would you want the rat as babysitter for the ugliest baby ever?

When I first read the book, I found it rather fitting to be honest.
And very... very much deserved on Wormtails part. *lol*

[kumainpink]

Ah, Karma... XD

[Kitty279]

Pity Wormtail didn't just accidentally drop him on his snake-head and have him break his neck! That would have done away with the prophecy as well.

Ok, Dumbledore believed that Harry had to kill the monster. But why did ne nothing to destroy the other Horcruxes? He can't have seriously believed that Harry had to find every single one of them? As Ron destroyed one and Neville another one, we know that's not true, anyway. So, why sit on his bony arse, do nothing and wait for Harry to grow up and do all his dirty work for him, just to make sure a prophecy is fulfilled? What if Dumbledore's guess was wrong and Harry really died, and in the worst case with Ron and Hermione - who would then have taken on Voldemort, as thanks to the old meddler no one else knew anything? What if they hadn't escaped from Malfoy Manor, but died there? What would have happened to the magical world then? That way to enforce the prophecy was really beyond stupid.

Jun 16, 2012 7:06:30 GMT -5 Ithiarel said:

When I first read the book, I found it rather fitting to be honest.
And very... very much deserved on Wormtails part. *lol*

Can't argue that That's part of why I loved that story, even if the Ron-bashing was a bit overdone, but then, that part was crack anyway. But Wormtail having to deal with changing the Evil Villain waste capture device ... and then get crucioed for having cold hands ... *snicker*

[Ithiarel]

Jun 16, 2012 7:10:45 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Ok, Dumbledore believed that Harry had to kill the monster. But why did ne nothing to destroy the other Horcruxes? He can't have seriously believed that Harry had to find every single one of them? As Ron destroyed one and Neville another one, we know that's not true, anyway. So, why sit on his bony arse, do nothing and wait for Harry to grow up and do all his dirty work for him, just to make sure a prophecy is fulfilled? What if Dumbledore's guess was wrong and Harry really died, and in the worst case with Ron and Hermione - who would then have taken on Voldemort, as thanks to the old meddler no one else knew anything? What if they hadn't escaped from Malfoy Manor, but died there? What would have happened to the magical world then? That way to enforce the prophecy was really beyond stupid.

Maybe, you have to think about it a bit differently.
Personally, I always thought that Dumbles was nearly as insane as Voldy - just in a different way. Dumbledore always had the appearance of a senile old man to me, who literally lived in his own world (much like Binns actually) and only saw/heard what he could fit into it.
He had 10 years to drift even further into the "the prophecy will come true"-myth and made it a part of his belief system. And of course, if you believe that the coming true of a prophecy is the answer to all your problems, then it's only sensible to do your best to make it come true.
It is also a kind of mythical thinking (much like a superstition) and would explain Dumbledore's fixation of having Harry deal with the horcruxes. Just like some people won't leave the house on Friday 13th out of fear that things will go horribly wrong, Dumbles might not have given Harry help for fear that the prophecy would "go wrong"...

This is just an idea, of course.

[Kitty279]

An idea that has merit, yes. The man was sometimes a bit strange, to put it mildly. And IMO he has to be either senile or manipulative to explain everything. Your theory would explain a lot.

See, and that's why I am not superstitious. I mean, they don't go out of the house out of fear, but that doesn't mean they can't trip over their own feet and bash their head in on the wall or a desk or whatever. The most deadly accidents happen in the house, after all.

[G. Novella]

To contribute to Dumbledore being superstitious and crazy- his fixation on the Hallows.

[Kitty279]

He was indeed rather obsessed with getting that stone, so he could bring Ariana back - or at least that's my impression. As if he could make up for earlier mistakes that way! And the Hallows ... no, I don't want to think about what he would have done if he had held all three of them at the same time. Luckily, he never had more than two. Sometimes I wonder, if he had not put the ring on and was dying already, would he have tried in sixth year to get the cloak back? He might have found a way to convince himself that being the Master of Death would enable him to twist the prophecy into the way he wanted it to play out, who knows?

[kumainpink]

*shivers* Yeah, the last thing Dumbledore needed was MORE power. HELL NO.

[sherza]

And too, second go-round, mot of his truly nasty followers had got tossed into Azkaban, and were either in crappy physical shape ... or as batshit insane as he was. (Hi there, Bellatrix! ... not that she was entirely sane the first time around, but it got worse.) Which cut the effectiveness of what he tried to do considerably.