Bashing

[Nahara46]

I just wanted to ask- Why does everyone feel to bash? I never understood everyone bashing on Dumbledore... or Molly... Or Snape. Even more, I don't get how everyone could be so happy with this series, yet they feel the need to bash on the author? I've seen multiple times on this site people questioning her logic and ability to write... When they are on a site dedicated for fans of her books.

I don't mean to sound... Well, rude or anything bad. I just don't get it. All the characters have flaws to make them real, why bash them for their flaws? No one can be perfect...

[Silenia]

Sometimes, character bashing is done for laughs - whether it's a parody or something else. Sometimes people are simply lazy in writing. Stereotypes are a lot easier to write (but much harder, if at all possible, to write well) than properly developed characters.

Then there are people who genuinely hate a character. You can hate a character that the author didn't mean for you to hate without hating the actual series. In fact, it requires books written by a talented author to inspire such negative emotions regarding specific character or scene without causing a general hatred for the books themselves.

Then there is a difference between a character with flaws purposely written in - it makes them human - and a flawed character, where the character itself is severely flawed or makes little sense. While I don't consider Molly, Dumbledore or Snape to be flawed characters, but neither do they leave the impression that - according to interviews etc. JKR gave - they were apparently meant to give.

Then there are people (not so much on this site as on larger fanfiction sites) who have never read the actual books, just seen the movies - and there is a whole lot "lost in translation" between the books and the films.

Then there are people who do not love the books as they were written but the potential they held, that what could have been. None of us are JKR, otherwise what we wrote wouldn't be fanfiction but canon, but for some fanfiction is the means to get that which they wished for or hoped for in the actual series, but never got.

Usually, characters aren't bashed because they're not perfect - few of us are fond of Mary Sues, after all - but because their flaws are either beyond what can be considered normal flaws, or because of specific actions or things they said in canon that are somewhat glossed over but that are to at least some fanfiction writers important.

Also, I do not consider questioning the logic of JKR, or wondering what she was thinking about something to be the same as bashing her, and while the overall series were good and many of the specific scenes were as well, it can be considered fact that certain scenes make little sense or conflict with other scenes.

It's also fairly logical that such debates happen on a site dedicated to fans of her books, or rather, writers of fanfiction related to her books. The fact that this site is primarily dedicated to Reading the Books fanfiction may play a role in it, too.

It's easy to ignore a scene that doesn't make sense, or not notice that two scenes in two different books are conflicting when you read them for the first time. By the time you've read the same book more than twenty times, however, those small, pesky errors, conflicting scenes, etc. may becoming something larger in your mind simply because you've read the books so often. Those mistakes may well glare at you well before you've even reached the point where they happen, simply because you know that once again, they will still be there. That won't change, no matter if you read the books for the tenth or hundredth time.

If everyone loved the exact same things, or the same style of writing, etc., there wouldn't be so many different authors with different styles all gaining best-sellers.

I do agree that there are people who take it too far, however - though I have yet to see them here.

[kumainpink]

It's definitely fun for me. I love in character fics too, but I love reading bash stories. The only characters I will not accept being bashed are Harry and Sirius. Everyone else is fair game.

[rachelhitsujii]

Just because there is character bashing going on, doesn't mean that we dislike them, it just means we want to point out their flaws. It is the same with bashing the author. We all look up to JKR because she wrote something wonderful that we all enjoy, but we also look at the mistakes, errors and oversights that she made.

[viralic1]

I bash because the characters I do bash, I either extremely dislike, or I just have a problem with their actions in a certain part of the story.

I actually don't like the later books (OotP through DH) but as Silenia said, I think the setting and idea of HP had great potential.

[Kitty279]

You said it very well, Silenia! It's so true, the more often you read it and the more you think about the series, the more the mistakes are glaring at you and you just can't help but point them out. And there are so many things that can be looked at from different angles. If you want to make a saint out of someone, you will find all the proof and ignore the rest. If you want to make a bad guy out of someone, you will point out all their flaws and ignore the rest. And some are more neutral. I believe that is completely normal and *not* limited to fanfiction. Or fandom as a whole, it happens in RL as well.

[basketsarah120]

I don't see how bashing a character means we bash JKR.. We just bash what we don't like about that character. I can't read a bashing on Sirius, Harry, or Ginny. Any other characters I don't care about. They are fare game.

[Kitty279]

Oh, I can read Ginny-bashing, but bashing Harry and Sirius is a big NO! The best are Dumbledore-bashing, followed by Molly-bashing. At least for me.

[G. Novella]

I try to avoid reading bashes myself (mostly because Ron's a target *grumbles*) but I see the point behind bashes. Silenia mostly sums it up. And when we get angry with JKR, it's because we love the series, and feel like she could have done more. It becomes the idea of holding someone to a high standard. It's only natural to criticize her on a site about her books because we have her at those standards, and when we see her fall, we need to point it out, or the mistakes will drive us crazy.

[Nahara46]

I've avoid bashes too- because it seems unfair to me. I've seen a thread where everyone was talking about how bad JKR was at writing and she needed a lot of help... It seemed almost like the bullying that many people bashed Snape for. I won't claim innocent to bashing, after the fourth book I had my fair share of rants against Ron, but by now I've gotten myself to be more understanding of Ron (Mostly through my love of Ron/Harry fics).

[Kitty279]

When you write books that are read by millions all over the world, it's inevitable that people start to take them apart and find all the mistakes even the editor let pass. Why would it be bullying? If we didn't love the books anyway, neither of us would be here.

[Nahara46]

To me it's bullying to nit-pick at people.

[Kitty279]

Then maybe I should stop reading your stories, too, because I don't write these "Update, update" reviews, but tell the authors my thoughts, and obviously you take that as bullying when I don't agree with a detail or find mistakes.

Though, by your definition, this would be one huge bullying website, because we all find faults here and there and the General Board is there to talk about them. And you could consider fanfiction bullying, too, as we exploit mistakes or change canon because we think it went wrong.

[aurora]

Nahara46, do you believe that constructive criticism such as pointing out spelling or grammatical errors is nitpicking or as you put it bullying?

[Nahara46]

No, I don't think that pointing out spelling and grammar errors- as long as it's done politely and kindly- is bullying. What I don't like is when people point out every fault possible, and then rage over it, calling someone bad or something similar due to those faults. I apologize, I should be using better wording...

[sherza]

The only person I really bash is Dumbledore, and I think I've rather covered, in the various threads here, why. I know JKR tried to say differently, but to my eyes, Dumbledore is every bit as bad as Voldie, if not worse. Just in a different way.

Part of that is the callous disregard JKR treats abuse with. Abuse in general is a bit of a trigger for me, and seeing it treated cavalierly is exponentially more so. The stuff JKR subjects Harry to *that we see* should really have affected Harry a lot more deeply than JKR makes it seem, and adults around him damn well should have realized something was up (both in the Muggle world and the Magical) and done something, blood wards be damned, regarding the Wizarding world. No amount of supposed blood protection from a *single person* (I'm not even sure it worked on Death Eaters) is worth subjecting a child to a decade of abuse in order to get it. Just ... hell no.

The rest of it is the completely horrifying implications of the things Dumbledore did over the years, when you sit down and puzzle things out. It makes him look *really freaking bad*.

[kumainpink]

Shez, I completely and totally agree with you! To me, the things that Dumbledore did were inexcusable! And just when I thought I couldn't hate Dumbledore anymore, I found a way: In Herald's After Effects of Old Coots, she has pointed out that Dumbledore was late because he was enjoying the parties. At first, I really didn't think about it, but it does make sense.

He mentions passing the parties, meaning he might have gone through and enjoyed them a bit. Considering that Lily and James DIED, he was showing absolutely no tact whatsoever! Then he basically tells Hagrid and Minerva to go out and enjoy themselves. Sorry, but NO. Fuck you, Dumbledore, and your insensitivity!

[sherza]

Jul 14, 2012 5:19:21 GMT -5 kumainpink said:

Shez, I completely and totally agree with you! To me, the things that Dumbledore did were inexcusable! And just when I thought I couldn't hate Dumbledore anymore, I found a way: In Herald's After Effects of Old Coots, she has pointed out that Dumbledore was late because he was enjoying the parties. At first, I really didn't think about it, but it does make sense.

He mentions passing the parties, meaning he might have gone through and enjoyed them a bit. Considering that Lily and James DIED, he was showing absolutely no tact whatsoever! Then he basically tells Hagrid and Minerva to go out and enjoy themselves. Sorry, but NO. Fuck you, Dumbledore, and your insensitivity!

It also indicates he took his sweet-ass time getting to Privet Drive, because if he'd Apparated straight there from ... wherever the hell he was at, he'd not have SEEN any parties, now would he?

Yeah. Callous bastard.

[kumainpink]

It seems that there's always some new low for him to sink to, isn't there? *sighs* And yet, we're supposed to adore him or find him funny?

You know, I have to wonder why James and Lily didn't tell Dumbledore about the switch. Am I the only one who thinks they suspected something shifty?

[Kitty279]

Ah. I had wondered how he know about the parties, too, seeing that neither apparating nor portkey would have allowed him to see them in the first place. Him being on a party would make sense, in a horrible, callous way.

Sometimes I really like to think that they *told* him about the switch and he knowingly sent Sirius to Azkaban so he could have control over the BWL ... But it's a good question if James and Lily began to suspect something. They weren't stupid, after all.

[sherza]

Depending on when the switch was done, they either didn't have time ...

or Dumbledore knew.

Remember, the Secret Keeper has to give the secret to people, either verbally or in writing. I think Dumbledore would *notice* when he got a second strip of paper in a different handwriting.

[Kitty279]

GMTA

Which would explain better how he could know what happened, if he had access to the house, though still not why he sent Hagrid and how he was able to get in.
I wonder if they keep essays and the like that aren't returned to the students at Hogwarts? For then they even could have compared the handwriting to find out if Sirius was actually the Secret Keeper.

[kumainpink]

Kitty, that is a brilliant idea! I wish they had at least done something like that...

[Kitty279]

Yeah. There must have been a way to find out the truth, but it's so sadly obvious that they didn't bother. They threw innocents in prison for life, and to make up for it, they let the real culprits run free. I am sure Queen Elizabeth would have something to say about it! (Not only in Sherza's fic - I am just reading a fictional diary of her that's wonderful sarcastic and biting and wonder what she would have to say about Dumbledore and Crouch and everyone else)

[Ayrine Sun]

Or maybe he just passed the parties.
That time he spent could be investigating what really happened with Snape (his spy) and ensure his future cooperation and preparing for the wards (I don't think he could perform that magic without preparations and little researches). He only got few hours before the death-eaters (the faithful) get over their panic and reorganize themselves and take revenge on Harry.
Really guys I know that you hate his guts, but I can't imagine him partying after his friend's death.

[Kitty279]

How can you just pass a party when you are apparating? When you get transported from one point to the other in seconds? That doesn't make sense, he wouldn't see said parties.

So, if he needed all the time until he meet Minerva before Hagrid came with the baby for research? And when did he then cast the wards? For he didn't after he arrived in PD and before he left with Minerva and Hagrid.

[kumainpink]

Jul 14, 2012 6:31:27 GMT -5 @Ayrine Sun said:

Or maybe he just passed the parties.
That time he spent could be investigating what really happened with Snape (his spy) and ensure his future cooperation and preparing for the wards (I don't think he could perform that magic without preparations and little researches). He only got few hours before the death-eaters (the faithful) get over their panic and reorganize themselves and take revenge on Harry.
Really guys I know that you hate his guts, but I can't imagine him partying after his friend's death.

First of all, of course we hate his guts! Dumbledore is a manipulative old goat who has done nothing but ruin lives! And if he wasn't celebrating, then why did he insist on Hagrid and Minerva joining in the festivities? How could he possibly deem something like that acceptable? Add Kitty's questions to that, and you've got a very fishy scenario.

[rachelhitsujii]

I agree that Dumbledore was most likely stopping at parties on his way to Privet Drive. It just doesn't make any sense why he would have seen *any* party otherwise. Not only that, but he skirts around Minerva's questions and is cheerfully eating lemon drops. He seems to show no sadness for the event, except when it is required. Heck, when they leave Harry on the doorstep, Hagrid, and even Minerva cried. Dumbledore on the other hand, just turns and walks away, showing little, if in fact any, sadness.

And as for him knowing about the Secret Keeper switch, I'm fairly certain he knew. If he didn't know, why would he believe Harry so quickly when he says Sirius is innocent and already have a plan layed out for them to save him in third year? I can see him taking Harry for his word somewhat, but to not even question him, and just give him a solution to rescue Sirius, seems highly suspicious to me. I mean even Lupin believed that Sirius was guilty until he had *actual proof* to say otherwise. Dumbledore never had this kind of proof, he just automatically changed Sirius's verdict in his head from guilty to not-guilty. When you add it all up, it just doesn't show Dumbledore in a good light at all.

[Kitty279]

Good point about the proof. Then add the fact that he didn't even try to put his foot as Chief Warlock down or did something else to help Sirius. Instead he gave the kids an obviously illegal means to save Sirius (and endanger themselves *again*!), so Sirius had to flee again and couldn't be cleared at all. That way he would make both Sirius and the teenagers grateful for helping to save him, without really doing anything and making at the same time sure that Sirius couldn't legally take custody of Harry and Dumbledore kept control. It's really a bit suspicious.

And what business has the headmaster of a school to decide the whole life of a student even outside of school?

[Ayrine Sun]

Well there is places where you can't apparate, if he needed to go to Hogwarts (needed books about the wards) he would pass by Hogsmeade. There would a some parties there. Maybe there is other places like that, maybe he needed access to the ministry library or archives to find more about this magic, he said himself the this magic was ancient and partially forgotten, he maybe needed authorizations to accomplish it and the ministry was having a field day trying maintain the International Statute of Wizarding Secrecy, so he had to wait (bureaucracy). All that could delay him for few hours.
And maybe he needed more preparation for the wards (theoretical, not just practical), maybe he needed to start the wards in the ministry's building.
In DH, the death-eaters were only able to broke the wards that protected the borrows after taking the ministry. Well, it can suggest that you need some authorizations or some magical artefacts (or anything like that) to do or undo some protections.
So why not this wards too?

Then he needed also to verify what happened with Snape too, contact him, speaking with him (when he was distraught and not really in the mood of conversing), assuring his loyalty in the future. He was able to confirm the "rumors" to McGonagall. So he must have made some investigations and that could have taken time and made him travel a little around, thus the parties.

For the rest, I should have phrased it better, "He wasn't partying and let Hagrid do the job for him".
As for after he placed Harry under his ante's "care". I would not blame him for celebrating the end of 11 years of sufferings, fears and deaths. Of course after that, the grieving would start. After all, at the end of each war, people go down in the street to celebrate their relief and happiness after such dark days. And anniversary of those days are also spent celebrating (even if they have lost loved one). If you condemn him for that, then you condemn the majority of the humanity.

And yes he is a manipulating old goat who sacrificed people in his schemes to save more people. Immoral and sad. But I can't hate him for it, He isn't God, he can't save everybody and can't be fair and just and he can't be always in the right. He does terrible thing for what he thinks the Greater Good, He plays ostrich too often when he doesn't want to confront his misdeeds. He probably had to harden his heart to do the dirty job and still have everything on his conscience. So for me, he is more pitiful than hateful.