Bashing

[physicssquid]

Jul 14, 2012 6:31:27 GMT -5 @Ayrine Sun said:

Or maybe he just passed the parties.
That time he spent could be investigating what really happened with Snape (his spy) and ensure his future cooperation and preparing for the wards (I don't think he could perform that magic without preparations and little researches). He only got few hours before the death-eaters (the faithful) get over their panic and reorganize themselves and take revenge on Harry.
Really guys I know that you hate his guts, but I can't imagine him partying after his friend's death.

I totally agree.

I can't see him wanting to party, but for those who hate his guts, remember that he was considered to be the Leader of the Light, so even if he was grieving, he wouldn't really be allowed to show it when most of the world is happy. He was one of the most famous wizards around, and the public would have been looking to him for the answers to all their problems. We could also see the fact that he went to those parties as a way to celebrate the lives of James & Lily, as well as all the others who died in the war. He may not have wanted to do anything other than crawl into bed and cry his eyes out, but he couldn't, not when he had all the responsibilities a man in his position would have.

As for the blood wards and when he could have put them up, well, he could have done it at some point in the ten year gap, or even just before McGonagall arrived to start spying on the Dursleys. Heck, we don't even know how wards are set up, so maybe he was busy dealing with those preparations, and stopped at the parties to try and regain some energy, depending on how much the wards took out of him.

With the secret-keeper switch, Dumbledore may not have known about it. How do we know that the caster of a Fidelius doesn't know the secret, even if the secret-keeper doesn't give it to them? I always got the impression that because Dumbledore cast the Fidelius on the cottage at Godric's Hollow, he would know the address without being given the secret, so he wouldn't need to be told by the secret-keeper.

[Kitty279]

Where do the books say that the Hogwarts wards are going up to Hogsmeade? No, he'd just leave through the gates and then could apparate. For that, he doesn't need to go through Hogsmeade.

Again, if he needed that much time to find out what to do, when on earth did he put up any wards? After he left with Minerva and Hagrid? If they weren't up by then, then it was beyond idiotic to leave the baby on a doorstep, it defeats the supposed purpose of sending him there in the first place. And don't tell me he did do it with a wave of his hand nonverbal and wandless while talking with these two. No, I don't see when he was supposed to erect any wards. So, he may have seen the parties, but if it was for these reasons, then the wards are a fairy tale.

As for DH, I rather had the impression that they came gatecrashing after taking out the Ministry to prevent them from interfering, not because it gave them access. It's not the Ministry's business to allow Death Eaters into private property!

Pitiful? No, I can't really pity him. He only brought it on himself. He thought he was God and the only one allowed to know anything, damning hundreds, if not thousands of people to die just so he could keep his secrets. The way he set Harry up to sacrifice himself for the Greater Good, after learning that the man he had looked up to for years only saw him as a pawn to throw at the mercy of a megalomaniac mass murderer put any good feelings I ever had for that man to rest.

[Kitty279]

Jul 14, 2012 8:12:49 GMT -5 physicssquid said:

With the secret-keeper switch, Dumbledore may not have known about it. How do we know that the caster of a Fidelius doesn't know the secret, even if the secret-keeper doesn't give it to them? I always got the impression that because Dumbledore cast the Fidelius on the cottage at Godric's Hollow, he would know the address without being given the secret, so he wouldn't need to be told by the secret-keeper.

You actually believe that he can cast the Fidelius and put the secret into a secret keeper without knowing who the secret keeper is in the first place? No way that would work!

[Ayrine Sun]

Jul 14, 2012 7:58:27 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Good point about the proof. Then add the fact that he didn't even try to put his foot as Chief Warlock down or did something else to help Sirius. Instead he gave the kids an obviously illegal means to save Sirius (and endanger themselves *again*!), so Sirius had to flee again and couldn't be cleared at all. That way he would make both Sirius and the teenagers grateful for helping to save him, without really doing anything and making at the same time sure that Sirius couldn't legally take custody of Harry and Dumbledore kept control. It's really a bit suspicious.

And what business has the headmaster of a school to decide the whole life of a student even outside of school?

Why only Sirius? why not protesting for all the people (dozens maybe more) that where shipped to Azkaban without a trial?
I bet the ministry would have had his head for interfering with there methods, just remember Scrimgeour (so I think he disapproved about it but didn't have the power to stop it). Of course he could have done it, put all his politic power to ensure Sirius's trial. But he preferred using it to save someone he was sure was in his side and who he vouched for (Snape) rather for someone he thought was the worst murderer and traitor that he himself confirmed his betrayal (even if he was wrong). Yep, he scarified Sirius and all others to save Snape. But he had to choose, so he did.

It's sad that he didn't trust Sirius, but hey, everybody had turned his back on him, believing he was a traitor. Dumby was only one of them too.

As for why he believed Sirius story so readily? Because he realized that Sirius' comportment after he escaped Azkaban wasn't normal. Here you have a mass murderer of the worst type who is sane enough to broke thought the best guarded prison and escaped the most effective gaolers and penetrate Hogwarts 2 times, one of them into the commune room and dorms then chooses the wrong bed and when discovered, he flees without hurting anyone, Fudge can convince himself that Sirius is insane, he is a fool, but Dumby saw that there was more to the story, so after he know all of it, and Sirius probably showed him his animagus. He accepted the truth more easily.

[physicssquid]

Exactly Ayrine. In book 3, Dumbledore did spend some time talking to Sirius before going to talk to Harry & Hermione, we just don't know how much time, but it would be enough for Sirius to convince him that he wasn't the traitor everyone thought he was.

As for Sirius being sent to prison without a trial, I always thought that was Crouch's doing, probably with a little payoff from Lucy, so that Dumbledore couldn't do anything about it, not without providing evidence to prove that Sirius was innocent, which he wouldn't have had, especially if he believed that Sirius was the traitor.

[Kitty279]

Ayrine, you are completely misunderstanding what I talk about. I wasn't so much thinking of the initial arrest (though that one could still be argued about, that sort of thing should never have happened in the first place), but the incident in third year when he claimed he can't do anything against the Minister. Fudge isn't the judicial body for the wizarding world, but the Chief Warlock heads it! So how am I supposed to believe he can't enforce a trial for someone after learning he's innocent, even if Fudge prefers to put his head in the sand?? Does the High Court (or whatever it is called) everywhere have to do what the Minister says, imprisoning or releasing people on his whims?

[physicssquid]

Remember what happened after Voldemort returned, with the smear campaign against Harry and Dumbledore.
If Dumbledore had tried to get Sirius a trial, with Fudge refusing to believe in Sirius' innocence, even if a few people like Amelia Bones did think it was a good thing to do, they would still be in the minority, and undoubtedly, Lucy would spread some gold around, to shut them up and possibly start the smear campaign a lot earlier.

[Kitty279]

By then Voldemort was nothing more than a wraith, remember? And yes, why should anyone do his duty? Why does everyone accept so readily that no one in the whole damn Ministry is doing his job? You take it for granted that Malfoy can buy the whole Wizengamot in a matter of hours to avoid them questioning Sirius. Such a smear campaign would take time, and if Amelia got the trial done fast, and even call the Wizengamot without telling them in advance why, they could have pushed it through, and then Fudge would have looked bad.

If that is how you believe it should go, then all I can say is that Sirius should have grabbed Harry and left the country and these idiots to deal with Voldemort on their own. They didn't deserve anything else.

[Ayrine Sun]

Jul 14, 2012 8:14:50 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Where do the books say that the Hogwarts wards are going up to Hogsmeade? No, he'd just leave through the gates and then could apparate. For that, he doesn't need to go through Hogsmeade.

Well Harry and Dumby had to fly on brooms to Hogsmead to apparate in HBP. So yes, I think you have to go there first.

Jul 14, 2012 8:14:50 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Again, if he needed that much time to find out what to do, when on earth did he put up any wards? After he left with Minerva and Hagrid? If they weren't up by then, then it was beyond idiotic to leave the baby on a doorstep, it defeats the supposed purpose of sending him there in the first place. And don't tell me he did do it with a wave of his hand nonverbal and wandless while talking with these two. No, I don't see when he was supposed to erect any wards. So, he may have seen the parties, but if it was for these reasons, then the wards are a fairy tale.

As for DH, I rather had the impression that they came gatecrashing after taking out the Ministry to prevent them from interfering, not because it gave them access. It's not the Ministry's business to allow Death Eaters into private property!

They didn't need that prevention when attacking Harry and the order when he left Privet Drive, they just attacked, but couldn't go past the wards. It's the Ministry's business to do powerful magic in their territory. Remember the portkeys.

If the wards are fairy tales. Then Voldemort read to much of them, seen as he waited until Harry's 17 birthday to attack. Oh, wait Voldemort doesn't believe in that.

Who says that he needed to be exclusively in Privet Drive to put the wards. What if it's the last part and didn't take much time. I still think that there is a lot more logical explanations to his absence than partying.

Jul 14, 2012 8:14:50 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Pitiful? No, I can't really pity him. He only brought it on himself. He thought he was God and the only one allowed to know anything, damning hundreds, if not thousands of people to die just so he could keep his secrets. The way he set Harry up to sacrifice himself for the Greater Good, after learning that the man he had looked up to for years only saw him as a pawn to throw at the mercy of a megalomaniac mass murderer put any good feelings I ever had for that man to rest.

Yes , pitiful for me. Shouldering so much responsibility. Doing what's other are repugnant to do. Yes, he asked Harry to sacrifice himself, knowing that it would end Voldemort and but also give Harry a chance to survive.
If He is so evil, Why didn't he Kill Harry himself or asked Snape to do it? He could have denied Harry his Choice and not risk that Harry run away.As much as he can predict Harry's actions, he couldn't be 100% sure of them.

Yes, Harry had to sacrifice his life to end Voldemort, as did his parents, and Sirius and Remus and Tonks and Dobby and Fred, and Mad-Eye and Colin and Dumbeldore too (he chose to drink that potion in the sea cave, he didn't make Harry do it, he hide Harry when he understood that the death-eaters where at Hogwarts, which result of him being disarmed and vulnerable) and thousands before him, so why not Harry? What's so special about Harry that he shouldn't fight and die doing it. Isn't England his country, isn't the wizarding's world his world. Isn't there everything and everyone he loves and care about.
Does he have a pass that other don't have. He can leave the place and abandon everybody as long as he survives?

[Nahara46]

*Twitch* Seriously, I started this thread *AGAINST* Bashing, and now it's bashing central for Dumbledore (One of my personal favorite characters.)

*Sigh*

[physicssquid]

These threads do tend to drift off topic Nahara, so don't worry too much. They do get back on topic eventually, but it takes a while.

[Nahara46]

Yeah, Sorry- I tend to freak out whenever I read Dumbledore bashing. He wasn't perfect, but he wasn't a bad person.

[physicssquid]

Exactly, but there are people who can't stand him, even though they know he was only human and made mistakes like any human being.

[Ayrine Sun]

Jul 14, 2012 8:53:53 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

By then Voldemort was nothing more than a wraith, remember? And yes, why should anyone do his duty? Why does everyone accept so readily that no one in the whole damn Ministry is doing his job? You take it for granted that Malfoy can buy the whole Wizengamot in a matter of hours to avoid them questioning Sirius. Such a smear campaign would take time, and if Amelia got the trial done fast, and even call the Wizengamot without telling them in advance why, they could have pushed it through, and then Fudge would have looked bad.

If that is how you believe it should go, then all I can say is that Sirius should have grabbed Harry and left the country and these idiots to deal with Voldemort on their own. They didn't deserve anything else.

It wouldn't even arrive to Amelia. Dumbeldore knows Fudge, he is able to send an innocent to Azkaban to save face and his popularity, just remember Hagrid in book 2, Fudge knows that Hagrid is probably innocent but arrests him the same.
Sirius' escape humiliated and mocked the Ministry, Fudge was viciously criticized because of him, he escaped them for 1 year, Fudge wouldn't listen to Dumbeldore if he hasn't proofs and he wouldn't have taken the risk to let Sirius live and escape again while waiting for an eventual and hypothetical trial, he just got him, he wouldn't have let him go (imagine what the press would say "sarcasms)". Don't forget the Dementors were on there way.
And Dumbledore knows it, if they had captured Peter, he would have tried getting Sirius a Trial, but without Peter, Sirius only hope was escaping again.

Who deserve Voldemort? Fudge? Dumbledore? Hermione and her parents? the Weasleys ? the Tonks? the Bones? The Abbotts? the others Wizards and Muggles?
Does every innocent has to flee from the country? Or just Harry and Sirius? That's such a good idea, everybody who doesn't deserve Voldemort (which include 90% of the population of England) should flee of the country.

Dumbledore may have presided the Wizengamote, but the Minister has also the right to interfere. In Harry hearing, Amelia Bones was the one presiding, but Fudge had also his power upon their. It's a battle of powers and the Ministry is corrupted. Even if he was able to guarantee Sirius a trial, he didn't have any proof.

Sirius was caught red handed with a dozen of witnesses against him, he only has his word and his unbelievable tale as proof of his innocences, The Trio were believed to be confounded and Remus wouldn't be trusted.
Truth serum is not 100% sure, some people are able to play around it, say halves truths. So using it doesn't guarantee the truth.
Using a pensive isn't 100% sure too, some people are able to modify their memories by ligilimency. (maybe some can do a better work than Slughorn)
Any proof Sirius would give can be countered by him performing Dark Arts his Master taught him.
Those are the reasons for things happening this way. At last for me.

I don't like bashing, I can discuss someone faults, I accept them, dislike or like them, but I don't want to put all the Evils of the world on Dumbledore.

[kumainpink]

Jul 14, 2012 10:47:54 GMT -5 Nahara46 said:

*Twitch* Seriously, I started this thread *AGAINST* Bashing, and now it's bashing central for Dumbledore (One of my personal favorite characters.)

*Sigh*

Aw...so sorry Nahara! *gives you a cookie* Kitty and I couldn't help ourselves. Where as you love Dumbles, we loathe him...

[Nahara46]

Yum.. Cookie ... I THINk I can forgive you. I guess we will always be at ends regarding my Dubble door! OH well, All to their own I say!

[G. Novella]

Have you been awakened to the magic of frumblegore yet Nahara ?

agh, I'm sleeping, *puts ipod down and stares at ceiling*

[kumainpink]

Frumblegore and the President of Pangaea are most amused.

[blackroses77]

Okay I got sidetracked in another thread and posted this but then I saw this thread and decided it belonged here so I am reposting here. (And if that makes any sense to anyone you get cookies. I think it's time I went to bed). Anyway here is the post:

This series wouldn't have been possible if JKR had had to follow logic and what would have happened in real life. And for as much as we all rant about the plotholes and what would have been more realistic the books would have been a hell of a lot more boring to read if they had been written that way. And while some thing's are inexcusible (such as JKR's handling of Harry's abuse) everything else just depends on how people want to look at it I guess. But nothing is black and white. Dumbledore can be taken as the story intended, good, grandfatherly, doing the best he can which makes great fics. Or it is also fun to look deeper, to twist JKR's intentions (which I have done myself when thinking about the stories) and write great Dumbledore bashing fics. I like seeing him written both ways.

[physicssquid]

Black, just read the posts by Ayrine Sun on the blood wards thread. They say exactly what I believe, just worded better. I'm not very good at expressing myself, and I agree with Ayrine Sun on everything.

[kumainpink]

I've been reading Sun's posts, and I disagree with all of them. Then again, I'm one of the ones who has a problem with the way cannon handles things.

[Ayrine Sun]

Jul 15, 2012 11:13:44 GMT -5 kumainpink said:

I've been reading Sun's posts, and I disagree with all of them. Then again, I'm one of the ones who has a problem with the way cannon handles things.

Must be why we can't agree. JK is the God of her story, her characters can't comprehende something that she doesn't. If she writes something that looks like abuse but says it isn't, every charachter will automatically see it as no abuse. You can still be raging against Dumbledore, but his vision is limited by JK perception of their reality. That's the reason I don't like Dumbledore's bashing. The rest I tried to explain what I understood from the canon.

[misschsparkle]

I utterly and completely despise bashing, especially as it always seems to be written so badly. People take a tiny fault in a character and blow it out of all proportions. I especially hate Ron bashing, it's like everyone only looks at his surface personality and not the deeper. Yeah, he had a smudge on his nose in first year, for goodness sake people, he was an eleven year old boy who enjoyed playing outside, smudges HAPPEN! He belongs to a large family with a lot of brothers, so yes, he is rather loud because he needs to be with his family.

Yes, he speaks without thinking but frankly, a lot of the things he says, Harry is THINKING. Ron and Harry are more similar than people realise, the main difference is that Harry tends to keep quiet about stuff. I hate how people whinge that Ron only played chess for Harry but he did so much more than that. He kept Harry sane, he was the normal, active bloke friend that Harry needed. Also, Ron stopped Hermione from becoming a recluse, something Harry failed at.

During fourth year, when Harry and Ron weren't speaking, Hermione got Harry to spend all his time in the library and they barely interacted. Harry wasn't any good at saying no to Hermione but it wasn't good for him. Ron is the one that keep the three of them together, he ensures Hermione relaxes and has some fun while providing the active companionship that Harry needs. He did more than play chess.

I also hate Molly bashing, people go completely overboard with her.

Oddly enough, you never ever see Twin bashing. It's weird, but when the bashing gets going, the twins are bathed in a golden light, as they somehow rise above everyone. It's not that I dislike them, I like them a lot but it's strange how no one ever sees THEIR faults.

I would only ever bash Umbridge but she's pretty much a given, isn't she? Also Fudge and perhaps a very, very small bit of Luna. It's just she's always made into such a prophet child and it's annoys me that characters just wince and smile weakly when she says something stupid. She really needs to be brought back into reality although I did enjoy her movie portrayal. But I would never outright bash her, just try to have her as more human than a lot of authors do. If that makes sense.

[G. Novella]

Jul 15, 2012 14:13:11 GMT -5 misschsparkle said:

I utterly and completely despise bashing, especially as it always seems to be written so badly. People take a tiny fault in a character and blow it out of all proportions. I especially hate Ron bashing, it's like everyone only looks at his surface personality and not the deeper. Yeah, he had a smudge on his nose in first year, for goodness sake people, he was an eleven year old boy who enjoyed playing outside, smudges HAPPEN! He belongs to a large family with a lot of brothers, so yes, he is rather loud because he needs to be with his family.

Yes, he speaks without thinking but frankly, a lot of the things he says, Harry is THINKING. Ron and Harry are more similar than people realise, the main difference is that Harry tends to keep quiet about stuff. I hate how people whinge that Ron only played chess for Harry but he did so much more than that. He kept Harry sane, he was the normal, active bloke friend that Harry needed. Also, Ron stopped Hermione from becoming a recluse, something Harry failed at.

During fourth year, when Harry and Ron weren't speaking, Hermione got Harry to spend all his time in the library and they barely interacted. Harry wasn't any good at saying no to Hermione but it wasn't good for him. Ron is the one that keep the three of them together, he ensures Hermione relaxes and has some fun while providing the active companionship that Harry needs. He did more than play chess.

I also hate Molly bashing, people go completely overboard with her.

Oddly enough, you never ever see Twin bashing. It's weird, but when the bashing gets going, the twins are bathed in a golden light, as they somehow rise above everyone. It's not that I dislike them, I like them a lot but it's strange how no one ever sees THEIR faults.

I would only ever bash Umbridge but she's pretty much a given, isn't she? Also Fudge and perhaps a very, very small bit of Luna. It's just she's always made into such a prophet child and it's annoys me that characters just wince and smile weakly when she says something stupid. She really needs to be brought back into reality although I did enjoy her movie portrayal. But I would never outright bash her, just try to have her as more human than a lot of authors do. If that makes sense.

Oh my god, this, this is an art form. You captured it perfectly, the part about the twins, totally agree. Sorry, but the twins were not perfect, neither were Bill and Arthur. Everyone just gives the twins a by because they were funny, and it drives me bananas. I love the twins. But seriously, they were human, they had faults. And no, they were never a hundred peercent Harry's allies, they came around to help once, when they orchestrated their run away. Otherwise, they never were these god who helped Harry at every turn either.

[sherza]

Jul 15, 2012 14:13:11 GMT -5 misschsparkle said:

I especially hate Ron bashing, it's like everyone only looks at his surface personality and not the deeper.

Yes, he speaks without thinking but frankly, a lot of the things he says, Harry is THINKING.

I also hate Molly bashing, people go completely overboard with her.

Oddly enough, you never ever see Twin bashing.

Also Fudge and perhaps a very, very small bit of Luna. It's just she's always made into such a prophet child and it's annoys me that characters just wince and smile weakly when she says something stupid.

Ok

Regarding Ron

1) I agree that bashing based on things like the smudge on his nose first year and his tendency to be loud is stupid.

2) That said ... Ron ... does some pretty unforgivable things, over the length of the series. He SAYS a *shiteton* of very hurtful things. Yes, Harry was thinking some of them, especially first year as regarded Hermione, but he only *thought* them. There is a HUGE difference between *thinking* rude, hurtful and nasty things and saying them to someone's face.

Secondly, he turned his back on Harry. Twice. Yes, the one time was Horcrux-induced, but that still leaves us with the time he did it under no influence but his own. Over something shit-ass stupid that he *should have known better* by then! He knew Harry for four years at that point, and he still thought Harry entered his name and was lying about it? CLEARLY, at the very least, he does not know Harry as well as die-hard Ron supporters like to claim.

Regarding Molly

1) Do I think she needs to be bashed? Not really. But she is not the saint you portray her as. She is an overcontrolling ... I dunno what. I mean, good freaking god, when Ron was seventeen, she was trying to stop him from doing necessary planning to help Harry carry out a mission Harry had been given by the then-deceased Dumbledore. And her son was OF AGE. Yeah. *eyeroll*

2) She was not Harry's mother, guardian, or any other such. Yet she acted like she was, to the point of telling *Sirius*, who WAS Harry's godfather, that she was 'all Harry had'. WTF. Just ... no. Not cool. She also ran around acting like she owned Grimmauld Place and was in control of everyone's actions there. Again, no.

And actually, I've seen the Twins bashed. It's rare, heck yes, but I've seen it. *snerk*.

Given your defense of Ron and Molly based on canon events, I find it rather odd and funny that you think it's ok to bash Luna for her 'saying something stupid' and being a 'prophet child' IN FANON. In canon, Luna ended up being right about the existence of a number of her so-called imaginary creatures, and was just an all-around oddball, not a prophecy child.

[Kaiserin]

it depends mostly on the writer and on the style of the writing for me. I do tend to favor pieces that redem the character that is being bashed, and the ones that don't bash but also do not down play their faults either. But a bad writer will make almost anything unappealing.

[misschsparkle]

Jul 15, 2012 15:47:53 GMT -5 sherza said:

Jul 15, 2012 14:13:11 GMT -5 misschsparkle said:

I especially hate Ron bashing, it's like everyone only looks at his surface personality and not the deeper.

Yes, he speaks without thinking but frankly, a lot of the things he says, Harry is THINKING.

I also hate Molly bashing, people go completely overboard with her.

Oddly enough, you never ever see Twin bashing.

Also Fudge and perhaps a very, very small bit of Luna. It's just she's always made into such a prophet child and it's annoys me that characters just wince and smile weakly when she says something stupid.

Ok

Regarding Ron

1) I agree that bashing based on things like the smudge on his nose first year and his tendency to be loud is stupid.

2) That said ... Ron ... does some pretty unforgivable things, over the length of the series. He SAYS a *shiteton* of very hurtful things. Yes, Harry was thinking some of them, especially first year as regarded Hermione, but he only *thought* them. There is a HUGE difference between *thinking* rude, hurtful and nasty things and saying them to someone's face.

Secondly, he turned his back on Harry. Twice. Yes, the one time was Horcrux-induced, but that still leaves us with the time he did it under no influence but his own. Over something shit-ass stupid that he *should have known better* by then! He knew Harry for four years at that point, and he still thought Harry entered his name and was lying about it? CLEARLY, at the very least, he does not know Harry as well as die-hard Ron supporters like to claim.

Regarding Molly

1) Do I think she needs to be bashed? Not really. But she is not the saint you portray her as. She is an overcontrolling ... I dunno what. I mean, good freaking god, when Ron was seventeen, she was trying to stop him from doing necessary planning to help Harry carry out a mission Harry had been given by the then-deceased Dumbledore. And her son was OF AGE. Yeah. *eyeroll*

2) She was not Harry's mother, guardian, or any other such. Yet she acted like she was, to the point of telling *Sirius*, who WAS Harry's godfather, that she was 'all Harry had'. WTF. Just ... no. Not cool. She also ran around acting like she owned Grimmauld Place and was in control of everyone's actions there. Again, no.

And actually, I've seen the Twins bashed. It's rare, heck yes, but I've seen it. *snerk*.

Given your defense of Ron and Molly based on canon events, I find it rather odd and funny that you think it's ok to bash Luna for her 'saying something stupid' and being a 'prophet child' IN FANON. In canon, Luna ended up being right about the existence of a number of her so-called imaginary creatures, and was just an all-around oddball, not a prophecy child.

Have you by chance read the third book? Then you will notice Harry's appalling treatment of Hermione over a broom!!! No one ever remembers this but he treated her like crap when all she was doing was protecting him AND she was right about who sent the broom. When Ron has that big argument about Scabbers, Harry supports Ron, not Hermione. He doesn't bother to comfort her or hang out with her, just sticks with Ron. So, while Harry doesn't tend to say nasty things, he can easily do nasty things.

Ron is an outspoken person and he does say things without thinking but that's honestly how some people are. It's not tactful or sensitive but it is open. Which is what Luna often does.

As for Molly, she is controlling but with such a large number of boys, she has to be. It does go overboard but would you honestly be happy if your child went off on a dangerous mission? With no backup and no contact? Ron might have been of age but not everyone is ready once they hit eighteen or seventeen. Heck, most people struggle going to Uni, never mind a dangerous mission.

As for controlling Sirius's house, well someone had to. Sirius wasn't making any effort to make it a home, he preferred to sulk. She's the one who got it cleaned up and made everyone meals, I think she has a right to be a little annoyed at Sirius. And yes, he's Harry's godfather but where was he for most of Harry's life? In prison for being completely reckless and not telling anyone about Peter. I do love Sirius but Molly made fair points about him.

There were times when he acted like Harry was like James, he even told Harry off once for not acting like James. Molly was there for Harry, she might not have given him an expensive broom or something like that but she freely gave him love. Something he badly needed. It was thanks to her that Harry found it easily to accept Sirius because she showed him what a real family was like. She wasn't his mother but she was a damn sight more of a mother than Petunia was.

I didn't say it was okay to bash Luna, I meant that I prefer to have her treated like a normal being. Meaning that sometimes, people get onto her and they are right. Also, which creatures are you talking about? Only one was proved to be right and it was a known magical creature. We never heard if Nargals or Snorcaks were real. Also, some of the stuff she was talking about was clearly rubbish, she believed anything her father printed, like Fudge eating goblin pie. It annoys me that when the trio tell her what the horn was, she dumbly relies that her 'daddy said it was something else'

I said I liked the movie Luna and book Luna was okay, it's just fanon Luna I really don't like. The Luna in those horrible stories does need to be taken down a peg or two, not everything she says is wise and meaningful, sometimes it's pure rubbish. Realistically, someone should call her on these rubbish speeches, even if it turns out their wrong. But in fanon, people just smile weakly and then grimace.

[misschsparkle]

Jul 15, 2012 15:25:40 GMT -5 G. Novella said:

Jul 15, 2012 14:13:11 GMT -5 misschsparkle said:

I utterly and completely despise bashing, especially as it always seems to be written so badly. People take a tiny fault in a character and blow it out of all proportions. I especially hate Ron bashing, it's like everyone only looks at his surface personality and not the deeper. Yeah, he had a smudge on his nose in first year, for goodness sake people, he was an eleven year old boy who enjoyed playing outside, smudges HAPPEN! He belongs to a large family with a lot of brothers, so yes, he is rather loud because he needs to be with his family.

Yes, he speaks without thinking but frankly, a lot of the things he says, Harry is THINKING. Ron and Harry are more similar than people realise, the main difference is that Harry tends to keep quiet about stuff. I hate how people whinge that Ron only played chess for Harry but he did so much more than that. He kept Harry sane, he was the normal, active bloke friend that Harry needed. Also, Ron stopped Hermione from becoming a recluse, something Harry failed at.

During fourth year, when Harry and Ron weren't speaking, Hermione got Harry to spend all his time in the library and they barely interacted. Harry wasn't any good at saying no to Hermione but it wasn't good for him. Ron is the one that keep the three of them together, he ensures Hermione relaxes and has some fun while providing the active companionship that Harry needs. He did more than play chess.

I also hate Molly bashing, people go completely overboard with her.

Oddly enough, you never ever see Twin bashing. It's weird, but when the bashing gets going, the twins are bathed in a golden light, as they somehow rise above everyone. It's not that I dislike them, I like them a lot but it's strange how no one ever sees THEIR faults.

I would only ever bash Umbridge but she's pretty much a given, isn't she? Also Fudge and perhaps a very, very small bit of Luna. It's just she's always made into such a prophet child and it's annoys me that characters just wince and smile weakly when she says something stupid. She really needs to be brought back into reality although I did enjoy her movie portrayal. But I would never outright bash her, just try to have her as more human than a lot of authors do. If that makes sense.

Oh my god, this, this is an art form. You captured it perfectly, the part about the twins, totally agree. Sorry, but the twins were not perfect, neither were Bill and Arthur. Everyone just gives the twins a by because they were funny, and it drives me bananas. I love the twins. But seriously, they were human, they had faults. And no, they were never a hundred peercent Harry's allies, they came around to help once, when they orchestrated their run away. Otherwise, they never were these god who helped Harry at every turn either.

Heh, glad you agree. Everyone forgets the fact the twins turned on Harry in first year when he lost all those points. Which was rich, considering how many they'd lost over the years. But this shows they were not prefect angels who always stood by Harry. Obviously, they could normally be relied on but not always. So yeah, I hate it when there's bashing of Weasleys, the twins are spared.....it just doesn't seem right.

[blackroses77]

For some reason I hate twin bashing stories (thankfully I've only come across one that I can remember, maybe two) I don't understand why since I don't mind when any other character is bashed I do however like when the twins are called on their behavior in RtB fics, in fact I get annoyed when they aren't called on it. Like their attitude and behavior towards Ron, not talking to Harry after the dragon incident and the fact that some of their pranks go to far and could be considered bullying. I love when these things are pointed out to them in the RtB and they realize how wrong they've been.

[dracosfairmaiden]

I hate bashing character stories. That being said, I try to see both the good and bad in the characters. For example, I believe Molly is a great mother and cares for her family. But she does need to ease up on the nagging and favoritism. Every character has some flaw that can cause them to be bashed even Harry.