RtB fics will be taken down

[penumbria]

Heads up all! I was just on Wattpad and RtBs are disappearing from there now. I was literally in the middle of reading one and I turned the page and it is no longer available. The author of "Seven Books and a Letter" was really upset because she lost lots of work because she only just started using Word for the last few chapters when she got a new laptop. If anyone has that one saved please let me know and I can contact her about it so she can relax. I warned her about ffn and CU and directed her here as well.

[Kitty279]

It just proves once again that it's a waste of time to find another website, we'll end up with the same problem all over again. The mailing list seems more and more appealing to me.

[queenguin]

Bugger, I've had no Internet for two weeks and come back to this. I'm limited in what I can do even now it's been fixed.
I don't know whether I'll be able to pm all authors with the restricted access I have. Does anyone have list of where each author is going, so I can go straight to their site/forum/post rather than maybe not being able to open attachments or links because of my idiot ISP.
You can PM me here, ffnet or yourfanfiction - I have the same pen name or you can pm me and ask for my email directly so that the list isn't accessible by unwanted bullies.
I hope the majority have gone to the one site so it's easier to follow stories but I know from reading through the last few pages that lots are doing their own thing.
If no one has a list, don't stress too much, Ill just have to patiently wait until telstra get their act together to start reading again and hope they haven't had to move again.

[Kitty279]

Just went to check if the number of stories for the three biggest fandoms under 'books' is still different from when you go into the actual chapter list and chose 'all everywhere, which should really bring up *all* stories, but is still less than the number in the fandom list.

25.06.2012
Harry Potter: 596,514 / 580,439 = 16,075 difference
Twilight: 198,797 / 195,676 = 3,121 difference
Lord of the Rings: 46,387 / 45,764 = 623 difference

08.08.2012:
HP: 604,129 / 587,401 = 16,728 difference
Twilight: 199,999 / 196,822 = 3,177 difference
LotR: 46,572 / 45,923 = 649 difference

So the difference in numbers is growning, particularly for HP. Why am I so inclined to suspect that they are trying to hide their deleting actions?

Then I went to wikipedia to see if they have anything about the recent purge. This is what I found instead:
There was also criticism towards the management of reviews; for a time, there was no way to delete or hide spam or "flames" from logged-in users, nor was there any type of moderation for reviews. However, on November 28, 2007, FanFiction.Net introduced the ability to report offensive reviews to the administrators of the site. Proponents of flaming being banned entirely, however, criticize the system, describing it as "hollow and of no use at all to anyone." The site's creators stated that everyone has the right to say what they want in a review and review a story as they see fit. They also went on to state that banning some flamers would be violating individual rights.

Somehow, the part I bolded strikes me as rather ironic. So, they can't hurt the individual rights of flamers, but they are happily hurting the individual rights of authors?

[werewulfking]

No it is not a violation of the individual rights of an author when they delete the RTB fics.
Of course it would have been better had they never allowed the RTB fics on the site or even just given a PM announcement before the deletion but behind that all lies the copyright infringement that all RTB authors practice. And on the other hand the M-rated fics have a similar situation.
If parents would want to they could hold the site responsible for any sexual content that their kids read on the site.

[Kitty279]

I am not just talking about the RtB fics, but of completely normal ones - like the one of the 11-year-old child that was mentioned in another post that got deleted for 'being too young to write'. Sure, it may not have been particularly well-written, I can't tell, but considering in how many flames spelling and grammar are nonexistent, can you explain the difference there for me? Why can these flames stay, but not a story of a young kid? Where was this kid's individual right?

[TitansRule]

Aug 8, 2012 11:34:45 GMT -5 werewulfking said:

And on the other hand the M-rated fics have a similar situation.
If parents would want to they could hold the site responsible for any sexual content that their kids read on the site.

Then they should have taken away the 'M' filter as well as the 'MA filter. If parents are unable to do something as simple as add parental control to their computer, that's not the site's fault. And, frankly, children can get sexual content from anywhere these days - they're going to hear worse from the kids at school.

The purge bugged me, not for the reasons behind it, but because of the conduct - the decent thing for FFNet to have done would be to contact the author, tell them the story was in violation and give them time to back up or save it, before simply deleting it.

And as for not doing anything about the flamers because of 'individual rights' - don't the writers have the right to post their stories without being subjected to cyber bullying - because that's what flamers are doing; it's NOT constructive criticism if it's done in that way, especially when some people then go back after the story has been deleted and mock the authors for their reaction.

[werewulfking]

Yes it is the sites fault. Unfortunately the responsibility doesn't lie with the parents. Even if a kid is younger parents are not responsible to watch over their children the whole time. So if they see a site like fanfiction.net and tell their kid that the site is ok because of the sites policy then the responsibility goes over to the administrators.

[Kitty279]

Exactly! Couldn't agree more. While I know that there are many stories in violation of the TOS, the way it goes annoys me immensely. Ignoring the problem for 10 years and then leaving it to a bunch of cyberbullies to decide what has to be taken down and doing it without proper warning is just not a way to go! And the way they gloat about it afterwards and mock the authors is just disgusting. That FFN is allowing people like that free rein is the best recipe to drive me away.

[Kitty279]

Aug 8, 2012 11:48:38 GMT -5 werewulfking said:

Yes it is the sites fault. Unfortunately the responsibility doesn't lie with the parents. Even if a kid is younger parents are not responsible to watch over their children the whole time. So if they see a site like fanfiction.net and tell their kid that the site is ok because of the sites policy then the responsibility goes over to the administrators.

Really? I learned that for libraries, the parents are still responsible for what the kids get, it's not the job of the library to control that. Books don't have an overall ordered age limit like movies, so the parents are responsible.

[mountaingirl777]

there are things parents can do though. I mean, they can put blockers on certain things. I live on a base (a community living place) and we are under a director. I can't go on a lot of site (examples: Deviantart, OMG! Yahoo, online gun stores and sites) because the server administrator put up certain blocks to keep it out. Parents could do the same.

I disagree, werewulfking, parents are responsible for their children at all times, even if they aren't around the kid. Just because someone else is watching your kid, doesn't mean you don't have the responsibility. If something happens to the kid, it will come back to you not the person who is there with them at that moment because you live with that kid and everyone associates you with that child. I know that today is different and people look at things differently now, but I still think the old ways.

also, I can't believe what that piece said about flamers! I mean seriously! I had a review when I took down my story to revamp it saying that I wasn't a good author if I have to redo the story (albeit that was the third time I deleted it, but still!)

I've also heard of people reviewing and saying that the story is crap because it isn't canon or the review didn't like a certain coupling and the writer should change it because that coupling wasn't to their liking!

^That is bullying!

I understand that some people take constructive criticism as flaming because they don't like being criticized and they should protect those that actually use constructive criticism, but they shouldn't protect flamers. Constructive criticism is TOTALLY different than flaming.

[viralic1]

Aug 8, 2012 12:08:55 GMT -5 mountaingirl777 said:

I understand that some people take constructive criticism as flaming because they don't like being criticized and they should protect those that actually use constructive criticism, but they shouldn't protect flamers. Constructive criticism is TOTALLY different than flaming.

Agreed. If someone tells you that your story sucks, that is flaming. I someone says it sucks, then explains why it sucks and has valid points, I feel it's constructive criticism. Maybe it's me, but I feel if someone has a valid point, even if they used an explicit way of saying it, the point in itself is still valid.

[Kitty279]

That was the conclusion for the library, too, yes. The staff there's not obligated to control if the child has the consent of the parents to get something more adult. (There are a few exceptions, but these have an age control anyway.)

Some people can't take criticism, no, even if it's constructive and are always feeling insulted, even if you point it out in a nice way. But still, to say they can't delete or ban flamers because they have rights sounds like a taunt when I look at how they treat even authors who haven't violated the TOS. Plus, I thought the TOS bans bullying? So, why are the CU allowed to do it to their hearts content?

[physicssquid]

I wonder if one of the admins is a member of CU.

It's not exactly a good thing, but it might explain why they let the CU do whatever they want without consequences.

[codygotkilld]

I do know that one of the people wo work on ff.net is friends with a CU member since it seems they get insider info a day or two before something happens. It is stated in one of the CU threads on their forum.

[werewulfking]

Well perhaps it is different in Germany where I live but in our system parents aren't responsible for everything a child does. If they can trust the kid and have a general idea what they want to do, like surfing on fanfiction.net or going to the library then that institution is responsible that the child does nothing inappropriate for its age.
I worked in a library and it a had a system that didn't accept a book for reading if the child was below the recommended age.

[melodypottersnape]

To me this is how I see it.

1) It is the parents job to watch what their kid get into. The only situation where the parents can sue somebody for letting their kids get on bad sites is when the kid is in school. I believe they can sue the school.

2)To me constructive criticism is tell the author that a sentence didn't make sense, telling them they misspelt a word or used it in the wrong context. To point out a mistake like the writer saying Narcissa was Sirius's aunt not cousin. To give out ideas, say the story or pairing is being rushed. Things like that.

3) I believe flames are insulting the writer. When a person makes an AU where they make Siruis have a sister and a reviewer keeps complaining that there was never a sister (only if they are very rude about it or they keep repeating it even though the author explains that they know.) When they complain constantly that they do not like the story or pairing. When they threaten or tell a person to kill themself.(I remember a situation where an abuse victim had Harry go through the same abuse they went through. The writer did so for theraputic reasons. A reviewer got angry and said that the writer codoned it and how it never happened and how the writer should go to hell where they belong. When the writer told them why they wrote the abuse the reviewer told the writer that the writer deserved the abuse. Can't remember who it was but it was really disgusting what the reviewer kept saying.)

[codygotkilld]

I agree with all three of your points Melody.

[Kitty279]

But I *am* German *and* working for a library, and we had a case some time ago where parents made a big fuss about their teenage kid getting a comic they thought inappropriate. It was taken to the city council and was blown up in the press, but the end of the discussion was as I said.

Limiting the age makes only sense for really problematic books (Marquis de Sade, for instance). But limiting normal books just because the publisher thinks it should be for a certain age group is rather silly. I've read books for boys of 16 and above and Karl May when I was 9 and that was never a problem. So we don't put a limit to that, either. There *are* children who are very advanced readers and others who aren't - you can't restrict the former to protect the latter.

[werewulfking]

Well I don't know but in my library it was never a problem with this age restriction thing. Evey parent had an own card anyway and if they thought their child could read the book in question they just borrowed it on their card.
And I think there is a big difference between a comic that parents think is inappropriate or a book for adults that is somewhat appealing to children where there are extensive, descriptive sex scenes in it. Or like the Millennium series by Stieg Larsson: Very popular, in the media and also in many libraries. But if a child is allowed in a library the people who work there have to prevent the possibility that a child could read such a book (the end especially is rather brutal).

[Kitty279]

*snort* We have rather the problem of parents checking out books on their kids cards to save fees! And I can guarantee you, if we did actually limit the access to books, then it would be an even bigger ballyhoo about us censoring what the kids read.

By that logic, you would have to demand a passport to even enter most of the library to prevent the children from looking into the books in the library itself. Maybe there's a difference between small cities and bigger ones - when the daily in- and outgoing of medias is in the five-digit range, you simply can't control everything.

[eskimoRock]

I remember that there were some books in my school library that only the kids who were 14 and over could read, and a load of girls kicked up a fuss because they weren't allowed to read twilight XD

[werewulfking]

We do demand a passport upon registering for a card (to control where they live mainly). And as we didn't have a fee that was never a problem. But an age was always registered with the books and a card so the computer did it all for us when a kid wanted to read a book outside of his or hers age group. But of course if we felt that the recommended age on a book was too high we lowered it.

[physicssquid]

It truly is disgusting what reviewers can say. Yes people have their own opinions, and they should be allowed to have those opinions, but they should also take into account that others may not think the same. They should also be aware that the way they show their opinions is something that others look at to get a vague idea of what they're like. If a reviewer tells an author that they should go to hell because something they wrote in an AU story didn't happen, then the author will get the impression that the reviewer is a bastard who doesn't like anything that deviates from the original text. And for a reviewer to say that a writer deserved to be abused, is truly sick. I would never say something like that, and I would hope that no other decent human being would either. IMO, a person who could say something like that is the worst example of humanity.

I also agree that constructive criticism is something that people need, as long as the way the reviewer points things out is gentle, not condescending or insulting. If I was reading a story and I found an error, then I would not call the writer an idiot, but point out that it was an error, then say at the end that I just wanted to let the author know. I would also try and give a few suggestions as to what the author could have written instead, but I would also say that they were only suggestions and the author didn't have to use them.

Damn, I think I ought to get off my soapbox and shut up now. Rant over.

[Ithiarel]

Well, I used to help out in our small town library - and I can tell you that it was no different there.

The librarians might warn children that a book is for older readers, if they see the kid reading in it, but that's it. Children seldom wander into the adult novel area anyway - simply because the children's area is seperated from it by the most "boring" area for children ("Psychology" and "Paedagogics").
The teens have yet another area for themselves.

But no one controls passports. That's ridiculous. Especially, since in such a small town the librarians know most children and their parents anyway.

And graphic novels are kept apart from the normal comics.
And, if I may hazard a guess, if a child tries to borrow a graphic novel like "V", the librarian would tell it that the book is not a normal comic. Usually, that's enough to deter the child. If it truly wants to read the book, all it has to say is that it's getting the book for a parent or an older sibling. You can't check that. And so the librarian would give it out...

(And by the way: Our library doesn't have fees. So, everyone can get everything for free. I was really shocked when I moved to a bigger town and learned that not all libraries work like that. Out of protest, I never get library cards from libraries that you have to pay for.)

[werewulfking]

Oh, I just understood your point kitty. You can't control what kids leaf through of course but even bookstores have some books (or rather manga) that are wrapped in plastic because they aren't supposed to be read by anyone under 16 (recommended age 16 to 17). Therefore if a library has such books they have to take some precautions.

[Kitty279]

Passport for registering is mandatory, of course (besides, people would otherwise give a wrong address, check books out and never return it, and you can't do anything because letters come back) and we have an age registered, yes, but we don't put a required age on anything save movies, where we need to because of the FSK. For books, it's neither necessary nor feasible, not with the amount we have. Books are sorted by a certain age group, but not limited to that one, it's more for easier finding of something appropriate for *most* of them, though not for all.
Are you living in a smaller city? I could imagine there people are less open with the age and even have time to control that. (We'd have blocked the checkout half the day if we did limit the books the way you seem to do, really - people would argue and argue and argue ...)

Yeah, the tone makes the music. When I point out errors, I at least try to do it in a courteous way. I mean, "idiot, this is wrong" is very different from, say, "I think you meant to say xxx here". For me, these flame 'reviews' are telling a lot more about the reviewer than they ever can about a story. Not to mention that most flamers can't spell to save their life ... they should start with themselves if they want to flame someone

[codygotkilld]

Yeah, I can tell you for a fact that bookstores around my hometown don't care if some of the more graphic manga's are out in the open. Hell, this one chain of bookstores called Hastings has the porn magazines right by some of the teen oriented magazines.

[werewulfking]

How many do you have? (books I mean) We have 10000 only and as we are a pretty small village with many others around we don't have so many readers.
But it has always worked and everybody accepts it and of course we are a little more flexible with books than with movies. But for certain books we felt that we do need an age restriction.

[Ithiarel]

Kitty:

Passport for registering imight be mandatory by now. But the last I remember (two years ago), you just needed to fill out a printed form with your data. And they ask you every january if your address is still valid. And you can't use your library card until you have told them yes or no. But that's it.
I guess, they block you, once they couldn't reach you be phone or address.

Yeah, movies have FSK. So, they look our for that. And I guess, they also do that for PC Games.

Maybe it's just a local thing, werewulfking is talking about. I live in a pretty small town (30 000 inhabitants counting the outlying villages). And people would laugh in your face if you proposed something like an enforcement of age distriction in the library. It's just... completely ridiculous.

People would probably wonder if you were doing too well, because you had time to argue something lunatic like that. *shakes head*
It just seems to be one of those points you only ever worry about if you really don't have any other problems to worry about...