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Post by princedice1 on Nov 21, 2012 19:10:57 GMT -5
Murder(especially of Children)
Rape
Molestation and sexual abuse of children
Treason
Terrorism
Kidnapping of Women and Children
Any form of thievery.
Illegal immigration
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Post by physicssquid on Nov 22, 2012 14:13:39 GMT -5
I don't know about the last three on that list, but I do agree that the other crimes are severe enough that anyone committing them deserves the death penalty.
And what about gun-running and drug-smuggling?
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Post by Ithiarel on Nov 22, 2012 15:00:57 GMT -5
That's ridiculous. None of these crimes deserve the death penalty by default. What about mother's who kill their new born babys? It happens a lot more than you think. Should they all be killed too? That's nonsense. Not every murderer is a psychopathic serial killer. While those are bad (hey, I'm a woman!) you can't just punish someone with something worse than the original deed. Fact is: having been raped means that you survived. You are alive, which by default means that the perpetrator cannot be punished with a death sentence. Just send them off to prison. Rapists and child molesters aren't well liked there. Let them tste a bit of their own medecine... Serves 'em right. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. These crimes are flexible in their interpretation. During the third reich resistance against the Nazi regime was considered high treason. And it was a damn good thing that people committed it. And the people committing treason back then, surely didn't deserve being killed for it. So, no. Thanks. As A german, I have to say that I consider the right to commit treason against my country one of my fundamental rights! What about male kidnapping victims? Do you think they suffer less?  Admit it, you only put that on the list because you think that most kidnappings end with murders. And that crime has already be covered. So, "kidnapping" has no place on this list. Can you honestly say that you have never stolen anything? Anything at all? Everytime you pick something up from the street and don't return it to the lost-and-found you are practically stealing it. Don't be ostentatious. If this is on the list, I should be shot, too. Because I once stole a package of chewing gum when I was 8 years old. *snort* Obviously, you have never had to fled your country because people there where trying to murder you and your family for being born in the wrong village. Or because you wanted to participate in the Olympic Games. Somali Olympian drowns trying to reach Europe by boat |
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Post by eskimoRock on Nov 22, 2012 15:29:01 GMT -5
I completely agree with ithariel!
With murder, what about the people who are ill, want to die and live every day in pain, but are physically unable to kill themselves? If their family assists them in their suicide they could be charged for murder. Does that mean they should be killed for helping somebody that didnt want to live any more? And what about if somebody is wrongly accused? They can take somebody out of jail if they were wrongly prosecuted, but once somebody's been killed...
Thievery is a ridiculous thing to be killed for. Some people steal to get money to feed their children, or just take something in a shop without thinking of the consequences. I once found a wallet with £20 in and didnt return it, but should i be killed for that?
Illegal immigration- people flee their own countries because they could be killed in their own country. We are the better people for taking those people in and caring for them- often they become important members of the community, and our countries have all been shaped by illegal immigrants.
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Post by princedice1 on Nov 22, 2012 16:38:55 GMT -5
Illegal immigrants are nothing but tax evading leeches that makes it hard on Immigrants who wants to immigrate to America, legally. The United States government needs to fortify the border with Mexico with Armed Drones, machine Gun Towers, and a electrified Barbed wire fence. If one those buggers tries to sneak across into America without a Visa, they get a bullet in the head or fried to a crisp. The Border Patrol should be given the power to shoot to kill on sight in regards to any suspicious activity.
Three points for the Death penalty
Punishes offender
Keeps him or her from doing it again, literally.
Brings satisfaction to relative
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Post by eskimoRock on Nov 22, 2012 16:52:20 GMT -5
Honestly, I completely disagree. You don't know what's brought somebody to take such drastic measures. If something horrible happened, and you needed to get out of the country for any reason you would hope that another country would take you in instead of shooting you.
Arguments against the death penalty
The death penalty goes against our most basic human right - the right to life
Being killed by lethal injection or being electrocuted is not always smooth and painless, sometimes it causes a painful death
No-one has ever proven with numbers that killing murderers stops other people committing similar crimes
Mistakes are sometimes made in the law - what if someone is killed who is actually innocent?
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Post by princedice1 on Nov 22, 2012 17:46:34 GMT -5
A criminal deserves to be stripped of basic human rights the moment they commit a serious crime.
I say execute faster, with no appeals, and see if it doesn't deter crime. Unfortunately nothing is perfect, so there will be mistakes, but over all the system works, and should be kept in place.
I don't care about the reason why they crossed, it's still illegal and, they should deal with like any criminal.
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Post by eskimoRock on Nov 22, 2012 17:54:29 GMT -5
You just end up murdering innocent people! You're suggesting people are killed for murdering people, but some of them could be innocent so you're basically killing "to make a point" and that makes you as bad as they are! Like I said before, there is no proof that the death penalty deters other people!
We recently had a case of a guy murdering somebody else on Oxford street on Boxing Day, and he's been held in jail. Today it came out that it was actually self defence.
Or how about if somebody comes into your home in the middle of the night, and you have children sleeping upstairs? What if they have a knife? You're going to do all you can to protect yourself and your family, and that guy could end up dying. Should you really be given the death penalty for that?
Wow, I'm so glad I live in the uk. There's no question of them bringing the death penalty back.
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Post by Isilarma on Nov 22, 2012 17:58:15 GMT -5
Completely disagree with the death penalty. We abolished it decades ago, and for good reason. I think the main one is, as eskimoRock said, that sometimes innocent people are wrongly convicted. It's bad enough that they have to serve long prison sentences, but at least there's the possibility that the guilty party may be caught and the victim go free. It's kind of hard to do that when they've already been executed. No justice system is perfect, nor will one ever be, and shorter sentencing and no appeals will only increase the likelihood of mistakes.
So if they're being persecuted, they should just stay where they are? Or if there's a serous risk that they'll be the ones killed or raped, they should just deal with it? Sometimes people don't have any other options but to cross. Yeah, it may be illegal, but the death penalty is just going to extremes.
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Post by princedice1 on Nov 22, 2012 18:28:33 GMT -5
If somebody broke into my home in the middle of the night, they properly end up with a bullet in their head, or their face being smashed in with a Louisville Slugger. Stand your Ground law and the Second Amendment are the best things America has, but the Damn Liberals wants to take that away, with their stupid Gun Control laws.
Stupid Liberals and retarded idea that the government is the solution to all the problems. Stealing Tax payers money to fund the welfare and other government assistance programs, which needs to be abolished, by the way.
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Post by G. Novella on Nov 22, 2012 19:14:21 GMT -5
That's ridiculous. None of these crimes deserve the death penalty by default. What about mother's who kill their new born babys? It happens a lot more than you think. Should they all be killed too? That's nonsense. Not every murderer is a psychopathic serial killer. While those are bad (hey, I'm a woman!) you can't just punish someone with something worse than the original deed. Fact is: having been raped means that you survived. You are alive, which by default means that the perpetrator cannot be punished with a death sentence. Just send them off to prison. Rapists and child molesters aren't well liked there. Let them tste a bit of their own medecine... Serves 'em right. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. These crimes are flexible in their interpretation. During the third reich resistance against the Nazi regime was considered high treason. And it was a damn good thing that people committed it. And the people committing treason back then, surely didn't deserve being killed for it. So, no. Thanks. As A german, I have to say that I consider the right to commit treason against my country one of my fundamental rights! What about male kidnapping victims? Do you think they suffer less? Admit it, you only put that on the list because you think that most kidnappings end with murders. And that crime has already be covered. So, "kidnapping" has no place on this list. Can you honestly say that you have never stolen anything? Anything at all? Everytime you pick something up from the street and don't return it to the lost-and-found you are practically stealing it. Don't be ostentatious. If this is on the list, I should be shot, too. Because I once stole a package of chewing gum when I was 8 years old. *snort* Obviously, you have never had to fled your country because people there where trying to murder you and your family for being born in the wrong village. Or because you wanted to participate in the Olympic Games. Somali Olympian drowns trying to reach Europe by boat Sorry- reading some of your retorts got me disagreeing. While I did agree with a few points, the first three were so completely- no. Murder: If you murder someone, you deserve to die. There is of course exceptions to this law- which is why there are degrees of murder in my eyes. Manslaughter is probably the only exception to this. But First Degree murder, defined as any planned, deliberate murder that was carried through or was part of an assault, people who commit those deserve to die. And Infanticide? Is that really your response? A mother killing a child should be pardoned? Again- there are exceptions (she had no options because she was in an abusive situation, insanity- which has to be real insanity, not post-depression. That's bullshit. If you're suffering post-partum, get help. Don't murder your kid), always, but are you telling me in all seriousness that someone like Casey Anthony deserved to walk? Or, if you're of the opinion that she didn't kill her kid, than what about Marybeth Tinnings? She killed nine of her children, all at different times, all after they were born. Andrea Yates? She killed her five children by drowning them in a bath-tub. As far as I'm concerned, if you take away someone else's right to live, you lose your right as well. Rape: Your argument is that a rape victim survives, and so the criminal should too? Yeah. Good one. Go talk to a rape victim and tell me how glad they are that it was only a rape they went through and they walked out with their lives. Talk to the victims of Bernardo for one (He's a famous Canadian rapist, and not all his victims died) or Russell Williams victims, he didn't kill all of them. I'm sure they were so happy they got to survive the attack. I doubt they went through any psychological damages that irrevocably changed their life forever. I'm sure they're just dandy and oh so happy to be alive. I saw one victim's interview after (Russell Williams) and she was thrilled that she didn't have a steady job, couldn't date men, and was an alcoholic- but hey- she was alive. And the prison pecking order is a half-truth. If you rape someone, you're not tossed in with all the other prisoners. No, you get put in a special cell filled with other rapists to carry out your term. Some are even put into isolated cells for 'their own safety.' While some inmates do get assaulted by others, that's not because they did a horrible crime. A lot of times, it's just because he was weak. Molesters: See Argument above Kidnapping: This is iffy. Pure kidnap- no other crimes charged, no death penalty. Any of the above three- toss them in chopper and grind them into dust. Other various crimes, add longer sentences. Thievery: Same as kidnap. Illegal Immigration: Deportation is usually the best answer. I disagree with Prince there. And most illegal immigrants leave for better jobs and society. Those fleeing for help go as refugees. Treason: This is an iffy case, and should be dealt with on an international platform rather than a national one. Again, treason is dependent. I don't think the death penalty is necessary- but it depends on how the crime was done. Speaking out against a tyrant, holding protests, rallying citizens, not an issue. I'm all for it. But- when it crosses into terrorism, then it gets complicated. That leads into Terrorism: If you're walking around with guns and shooting people who have done nothing wrong to you- who are innocent people- (Al Quaida, the Taliban, Bin Laden, That guy- Jeff or George, I can't remember his name, the Kasab guy who was a part of the terror attacks in India recently) then you die. There is no GOOD reason to take a gun and attack citizens and harmless folk. There are plenty of ways to organize a protest against a government without attacking another country and it's civilians. You can easily protest unfairness in other ways. Yes a man who joins a terrorism group can be seen as a 'freedom fighter' but this is the definition of terrorism, "The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aim." And this is the definition of Freedom Fighter "A person who takes part in a violent struggle to achieve a political goal" They go hand in hand, I must admit. "The issue at hand is not whether fighters for a noble cause often act in reprehensible, cruel, and destructive ways. Such actions, however, have as their goal acquiring or re-acquiring something valuable, something highly desired. This may be land, sovereignty, or political goals such as liberty or economic equality. Freedom fighters usually come from oppressed or marginalized groups that have been deprived of something important, such as a homeland, and their struggle is to obtain it or gain it back. In other words, if there is a sinful motive in the dreams and actions of a freedom fighter, it is likely the sin of greed. This is not so with terrorism. Terrorists are less concerned with acquisition than they are with destruction. They are usually clever enough to cloak their motives by hijacking the popular will of an oppressed people, but their wrath is not appeased when they acquire what they say they want. For example, would the war against Israel be over once the Palestinians got their own homeland? Most likely it would not. The real goal of terrorist groups is not acquiring but destroying. Terrorism is thus qualitatively different from armed movement for freedom and liberty. Terrorism is not like greed; it is an extreme form of destructive envy." Again, this is a practical definition that needs to be applied in case of an international law, but that's not usually upheld. But a real terrorist, in my opinion, deserves a quick death. Here's something that I saw vaguely mentioned, drug and gun trading. While I agree these guys should die, I'm going to paraphrase George Carlin, why kill the smugglers and gangs who're busy killing each other off and aren't afraid to die? They know what's coming if they get caught, and they're ready to risk it. Instead, kill the lobbyists who are supplying them money (THE BANKERS) That's why, on my list of people who deserve to die, add lobbyists of large sums of money. They deserve public hangings. Filmed. On TV. Again- George Carlin's idea, I just approve. As well, with the technology given today, and if the evidence is more than circumstantial, if there is solid, evidence that sways a jury to a unanimous vote, then execute the ones on the list. Finally, (and this is really the last point I have) there is no proof that the abolishment or institution of the Death Penalty abolishes crime- and this is true. If you're going to, in cold-blood, kill, rape or molest a man or woman, child or senior, I highly doubt the consequences or the life sentence is going to make you walk the other way. |
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Post by G. Novella on Nov 22, 2012 19:15:16 GMT -5
Sorry about the rant. This debate is one that I had just the other day with a friend, and well, we were both on side YES DEATH PENALTY. We had a lot of arguments that I summed into that ^
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Post by Ithiarel on Nov 24, 2012 6:04:43 GMT -5
Hey, no prob. The death sentence is a hot topic. And Just to be clear here: I'm against it.
That argument isn't going to fly with me.
I AM a rape victim. I was raped when I was 6 years old. And I've had to live with the consequences for over 25 years now. So, don't even try to pull that card with me.
For those 25 years, I have gotten my satisfaction from knowing that the guy who did it is rotting in prison and will continue to do so for the rest of his (hopefully very long) life. That while I get to live, he get's to exist in a limbo where he can see life moving on outside the walls without him, knowing full well, that he will never get to be part of it again. It's psychological torture that people who've never been locked up can't fully understand... Why would I wish for him to be dead? It would mean that he get's away with one second of pain, while I have to live with it for my whole life. If I'm going to live with the consequences then so is he. He's not going to take the easy way out. No way. I'm going to fight the death sentence for that reason alone: I want him to suffer, and he cant do that when he's dead. He can only sufefr while he's alive.
I disagree. Kind of. Well, the whole serial offender thing is icky. I give you that. And they cost a lot of money if you lock them up their whole life. But a lot of murders are commited in affect not planned in advance. And those perpetrators need to be counseled. So that they can (in 10 or 20 years) fully comprehend the resulty of their actions and live on with the guilt until the end of their lives. I don't know how it is in the US, but in Germany, most murderes who leave prison after sitting of their sentence (usually 10 - 15 years) never come into conflict with the law again.
Everyone deserves a second chance. That's the whole point. If we can afford to give it, then we are morally obliged to give it.
And ultimately, carrying out a death sentence will only put us on the same level as the original murderer. Because a life is a life. It doesn't matter who it is who is killed. It's still a human person being killed.
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Post by princedice1 on Nov 24, 2012 18:51:11 GMT -5
I thought of something much better then the death penalty. How about air dropping all these scumbag criminals into Russia and let the Russians work them to death like dogs in a Siberian Labor Camp.
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Post by physicssquid on Nov 24, 2012 19:54:04 GMT -5
I thought of something much better then the death penalty. How about air dropping all these scumbag criminals into Russia and let the Russians work them to death like dogs in a Siberian Labor Camp. That sounds like a fairly reasonable idea. They'd all be suffering far more than their victims, which they may well deserve, and they wouldn't just be leeching off the taxpayers by sitting around doing nothing. |
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Post by brokenquill92 on Nov 24, 2012 22:56:21 GMT -5
Perhaps I'm just mean but wouldn't kill anyone I'd keep them alive forever play high pitched electronic sounds not enough to deafen or cause permanent damage but make them uncomfortable, oh and let a raccoon be in charge of the volume. I'd also let their victims have any of their money and property. But yes living forever seems far more fitting than the death penalty. Not only should they live forever but everyone should know how awful they are and that they do not deserve the title human.
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Post by Kitty279 on Nov 25, 2012 7:58:06 GMT -5
*shakes head* By your list of who deserves to be killed, Princedice, you could probably kill at least a third of the worldwide population. Let's just talk about a few of your points.
Treason:
Who has the right to decide what treason is? In any unjust state, pretty much anything could be declared 'treason' In my hometown, just for instance, at the end of WWII a young man was hanged hours before the town was taken by the US Army because he tried to convince people to give up and hand the place over. For the Nazis, that was treason. For me, he tried to prevend more bloodshed. Basically, he was declared a traitor for trying to save lifes. Did he really deserve to die for that? And there would be many more examples along that line.
And death penalty for any thievery? You do realise that a child taking the candy of another child is thievery, too? And you think that deserves the death penalty? Are you for real?
You think executing faster with no appeal would be a good idea. Really a great one, seeing how many people in US death cells are innocent. Then I move that every single one person, from who accused them over all policemen, judges and jailers to the executioner, are executed for killing an innocent, too, maybe that would give them something to think. We all know how prejudices can used to get others in trouble who did nothing wrong. What would you feel if someone accused you of stealing something from them and you got executed for doing nothing wrong?
As for killing illegal immigrants, now that's sick. Have you ever wasted one minute thinking of what these people have often escaped from? Would you just sit there while your town is bombed down, your family raped and killed, while you are starving and traumatised? Or would you just try to get away? I'm sure you'd be happy if you got out of the country only to be executed just for escaping with nothing but your life.
Personally, I am upset how people can be so unfeeling and cynical about other people's lifes.
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Post by princedice1 on Nov 25, 2012 18:02:22 GMT -5
Hey Kitty, if some American tried that same stunt, they would most likely be shot. President Obama even supports that position about traitors being executed, considering he used a drone to take out an American Citizen in Yemen because he was being loyal to a terrorist and to answer your question about who has a right to decide if your traitor or not, ether the court system, or the President, if the nation is at war.
Not for petty crime, but for big stuff like stealing classified information or robbing a bank.
Why should the Policemen, Judges, and, Jailers be executed when they were just doing there jobs, and besides a Jury usually has the final say if the person is guilty or innocent based on the evidence. Mistakes happen, but it's no reason to abolish the death penalty.
Death Penalty would be to harsh for any illegal immigrant, if their caught, deport them back to homeland, if caught a second time, a heavy fine and life in prison. Why should a country be burden with another countries citizens, when that country it having a hard time taking care of it own.
Sometimes i think the creation of the UN was a mistake. I hope one day America will just withdraw from the UN, or it would just fail like the League of Nations.
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