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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 15, 2012 15:19:55 GMT -5
We all know the prophecy and how much stock Voldemort and Dumbledore put into it. But I was wondering about some things and would like to know what you think of my interpretation.
"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ...
Who said we are talking about Voldemort in the first place?
Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ...
Did any of them ever consider that it might not have pertained to a woman pregnant just then? Does that necessarily mean the end of July? Could it not have been the seventh month after the prophecy itself? Or a different calendar, even if that is not that likely when it is meant to be Britain? And how many others may have defied Voldemort before? People who just didn't expect a baby right then?
And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ...
Somehow I can't see how on earth Harry is supposed to be equal to that nutter. He's neither as powerful as as evil, so what? And the power he knows not could have just been Lily's protection. Moldyshorts certainly didn't expect his Avada Kedavra to backfire.
And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ...
That line still confuses me. If I understand it correctly, then it should not be possible for them to be alive at the same time? But Moldyshorts returned at the end of Harry's fourth year, and then they were both very much alive. So, how does that make even sense?
The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."
It says vanquish, not kill. You could say exactly that happened on Halloween 1981. So, wouldn't the prophecy have already been fulfilled when James and Lily were killed? And all the fuss about guarding the stupid thing was for nothing? As was setting up Harry to kill him?
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Post by Ithiarel on Jun 15, 2012 15:29:47 GMT -5
I agree with you.
I always found the whole prophecy business strange. Also, because no one seemed to take much interest in the fact that the kids destroyed all the prophecies collected in the DoM. Obviously the people working there didn't really consider them of much importance, did they? Otherwise there would have been heavy consequences for the children. Imagine the amount of knowledge and the importance it might have had...
Although, the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal did make sense to me. Kind of. All it means is that the Dark Lord (whoever that might be) will mark the child, not that the child would actually be his equal - just that the Dark Lord will think so.
What I keep wondering about though, considering the prophecy was made before Harry was born, what would have happened had Regulus not died in the cave but succeeded in taking the locket (and eventually destroying it). Would there have even been the need for a prophecy?
Was Harry perhaps just some kind of destiny's fallback option, when the first one didn't work out?
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Post by readingwizard4 on Jun 15, 2012 15:53:15 GMT -5
The only reason (that I can see) they guarded the thing was to hope that Voldemort would attack the Ministry to get it so he would reveal himself.
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Post by dracosfairmaiden on Jun 15, 2012 15:56:15 GMT -5
I did think the whole prophecy thing was entirely coincidental. After all, Dumbledore himself said it could have pertained Neville. Besides, Harry couldn't have been the only wizard born in July. Another thing that seemed off was the 'power the Dark Lord knows not' phrase. Dumbledore kept saying it was love, but Voldemort was really defeated due to the Elder Wand. So what is the power the Dark Lord knows not?
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 15, 2012 16:13:51 GMT -5
I agree with you. I always found the whole prophecy business strange. Also, because no one seemed to take much interest in the fact that the kids destroyed all the prophecies collected in the DoM. Obviously the people working there didn't really consider them of much importance, did they? Otherwise there would have been heavy consequences for the children. Imagine the amount of knowledge and the importance it might have had... A lot of them might have already been fulfilled, though, or are invalid anyway. Ok, that can be. No one said the Dark Lord has to be very intelligent, after all  Interesting question, will have to think about it a bit more. Besides, can anyone explain to me why the prophecy had to be guarded? All it told Voldy that it was him or Harry - but seeing that he kept trying to kill him anyway, what difference made it? Just trying to catch him doesn't seem too likely to me - one Order member against a Death Eater invasion? Lure him in to the Ministry with the prophecy would be an idea, yes, but Voldemort would try to do it in secret, and with just one Order member, like Arthur, around, they would just lose their jobs for spreading lies. Or was the guard supposed to watch them get into the DoM and then raise the alarm? Would still have led to uncomfortable questions ... |
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sherza
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Post by sherza on Jun 15, 2012 17:42:40 GMT -5
Who said the prophecy had anything to do with anything in Britain, either? It could just as easily have been for a Dark Lord who started elsewhere, but whose regime reached Britain at some point, or some Dark Lord who never went anywhere near Britain. Last time I checked, prophecies weren't necessarily given about things that were going to happen in the place they're given. *snerk*. A lot are, yes, but not all.
And here's something else to chew on, that will make conspiracy nuts itchy.
Why, in the name of GOD, was Dumbledore holding an interview for a teaching position in the HOG'S HEAD. The seediest bar in Hogsmeade? Why not at the Three Broomsticks ... or better yet, Hogwarts?
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Post by Dimcairien on Jun 15, 2012 17:55:55 GMT -5
"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Who said we are talking about Voldemort in the first place? Voldemort is the only Dark Lord at this point. Yes, prophecies can be made centuries in advance, but it makes the most sense for it to be about Voldemort as the prophecy seems more likely to be talking about a current event than one far off in the future. The seventh month is usually regarded as July, not matter when someone is talking about it. As for who it could about, hardly any of the wizards in Harry's year were born in the summer. Draco, Harry, Neville, and Ernie, are the only ones that I know of and Neville is the only other one who was born to parents who defied Voldemort three times. It was very rare to defy Voldemort more than once, simply because he'd kill you. Remember, Harry has a piece of Voldemort's soul in himself, thus in a strange sense, making them equal. Harry had some of the abilities of Voldemort, including being able to talk to snakes. I have a feeling this is the power that Voldemort knows notI agree about this line being confusing. One of them has to kill the other, that much is understandable. As for the second half, I think that ultimately one has to be destroyed. Technically neither of them had a life in the sense of a good one. Voldemort was a psychopath and Harry lived with the Dursleys for ten years and then was chased by Voldemort for the next seven. I wouldn't consider either of them to have a life per se, but Harry obviously has a good and peaceful life after Voldemort is destroyed. Vanquish means to defeat. Yes, it can be argued that that happened Halloween 1981, but Voldemort still came back. To be completely vanquished, one must be completely destroyed. The prophecy had to be guarded to keep Voldemort from knowing the second half. Voldemort didn't know that when he attacked Harry, he had marked him as the one that would destroy him. Or at least, that's my understanding. Like the prophecy states, Harry must be the one to kill him because he's the only one with equal power. Also, remember then twin cores that Voldemort and Harry's wands shared. That too pertains to the fact that they are equal. I hope this makes sense, but the prophecy is a fishy business to discuss. To me it seems like one of those statements that makes perfect sense until you try to figure out what it means. |
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sherza
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Post by sherza on Jun 15, 2012 18:27:17 GMT -5
Dimcairen
Unless the prophecy said 'Voldemort' or 'Tom Riddle' ... there is no proof that it HAS to be about Voldie. Yes, he was kicking butt and taking names at the time, but that does not mean that any prophecies made during his rise HAD to be about him.
Seventh month is also debatable ... there is more than one calendar used in the world.
And being 'marked' as his equal ... yeah, as was pointed out earlier, that doesn't mean the person in question is perfectly equal. Unless you want to tell me that (in the case of Harry) a seventeen year old kid can equal the knowledge and experience of a seventy-plus year old man? Being equal in sheer brute-force power means precisely bupkiss if you can't ever get anywhere near the Dark Lord to employ it!
My personal interpretation (if it HAS to be Harry) of the 'neither can live while the other survives' thing is that while both are alive, neither is truly *living*, they're surviving. For thirteen years after the 'marking' in canon, Voldie was a vapor or itty-bitty ... critter ... , and Harry was ... well, with the Dursleys. In both cases, they were pretty much surviving from one day to the next. And once Voldie got a full-size body, they were obsessing about each other and/or at each other's throats. Neither could fully relax and just do what they wanted to, until the other was gone. In Voldie's case, because he was afraid Harry would conquer him, and in Harry's case, because Voldie was out to kill him.
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Post by readingwizard4 on Jun 15, 2012 18:48:08 GMT -5
You can make each statement as vague as you want. I saw a fic of ffn that did this I think. The born as the 7th month dies? Could be anywhere from July 15th on or any other calendar. There were a couple other points for this but I can't remember them. For defied three times, who said it had to be defy death from him 3 times? It could be refused to join him 3 times. So you shouldn't place your stock in prophecies. Sherza's interpretation of neither can live while the other survives makes sense. That has given me a headache trying to figure that one out.
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Post by kumainpink on Jun 15, 2012 18:55:33 GMT -5
I think the prophecy is utter bullshit, and it was handled poorly on Dumbledore and Voldemort's accounts. They both put far too much stock in it and thus caused the suffering and deaths of so many people.
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Post by Dimcairien on Jun 15, 2012 18:56:04 GMT -5
My personal interpretation (if it HAS to be Harry) of the 'neither can live while the other survives' thing is that while both are alive, neither is truly *living*, they're surviving. For thirteen years after the 'marking' in canon, Voldie was a vapor or itty-bitty ... critter ... , and Harry was ... well, with the Dursleys. In both cases, they were pretty much surviving from one day to the next. And once Voldie got a full-size body, they were obsessing about each other and/or at each other's throats. Neither could fully relax and just do what they wanted to, until the other was gone. In Voldie's case, because he was afraid Harry would conquer him, and in Harry's case, because Voldie was out to kill him. That's what I was trying to say about neither of them truly living. Thanks for saying it a lot better than I did. Yeah, it didn't technically have to be about Voldemort, but that's how it ended up. |
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Post by Trilonias on Jun 15, 2012 20:59:44 GMT -5
Indeed... that's actually how I see the prophecy... a self-fulfilling one, as if no one had acted on it, it wouldn't have become one. But thanks to Dumbledore and Voldemort, it did. They enabled the prophecy.
And it's not like Harry used the power to defeat Voldemort in the end. Nothing says in the prophecy says that, just that he has it. Kinda stupid, really.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 16, 2012 0:03:09 GMT -5
Seventh month is also debatable ... there is more than one calendar used in the world. Exactly. And some wouldn't even be that unlikely even in Britain, seeing how many people from all over the world live there. Assuming the prophecy means something and someone in Britain in the first place. That's what is irritating me, yes. Harry may be able to reach the same power level, but how many years would that take? And Voldemort would still use magic Harry would never even touch, because it's too dark. Just the scar and that soul piece don't make them equal, so I don't believe that part of the prophecy was really fulfilled. Hm, yes, that's the only explanation that would make sense. Vanquish means to defeat. Yes, it can be argued that that happened Halloween 1981, but Voldemort still came back. To be completely vanquished, one must be completely destroyed. Could be argued, yes, but he did vanquish him once, and the prophecy neither said he has to do it repeatedly (which he did) nor that he has to do it for good. That was in the beginning the case, yes. But what would it have changed if he knew the rest? He was already obsessed with killing Harry, so how did knowing the rest of the prophecy change that? The only one with equal power was Dumbledore. |
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sherza
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Post by sherza on Jun 16, 2012 1:11:13 GMT -5
The only real way for Harry to be equal to Voldie is to have access to everything Voldie knows. Which he doesn't in canon.
I actually fixed this in a fic of mine ... by using canon, no less *evil laugh*. I decided that if Harry could SEE what Voldie saw/wanted him to see, and they had a mind connection ... well, it wasn't just vision, it was full and complete access to Voldie's brain (but not vice versa), So Harry could go brain-browse for answers when things about Voldie came up, eavesdrop on all his planning, etc.
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Post by Ithiarel on Jun 16, 2012 4:37:24 GMT -5
Those are all good points, but I think we are all forgetting one very important aspect of the prophecy: The person who made it. (in this case Prof. Trelawney) Personally, I believe that -even in a trance- a human refers to the systems and surroundings they are most in contact with. This means that the seventh month would in all likelihood mean July, because Trelawney grew up with the western calendar and thus the seventh month would be July for her. The same goes for "the Dark Lord" part. For Trelawney at that moment in her life there was no other dark Lord of importance but Voldemort. So it is very likely that she meant him. I have trouble believing that prophecies are put into the prophecisers head by some random outer force. Rather, I think that they mirror the worldview of the person who gives them. After all, the same is true if you put someone into a trance by hypnosis. They can describe very early memories of them as babies, but they would still do so from the perspective of an adult - and they may not remember any of it once you wake them from a trance. Trewlaney might not have known how often Lily, James, Alice, and Frank had defied Voldemort at that point, but I think that at least the more basic points (which dark lord, which month) were clear to her within the trance, and she described them within the contexts she was most familiar with... Does that make sense to anyone? Typed out it sounds kinda confusing to me... It made more sense in my mind, I promise. |
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sherza
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Post by sherza on Jun 16, 2012 5:17:39 GMT -5
To rebutt ...
It's TRELAWNEY[/i][/u]
You remember her? The biggest Divination fraud of the 20th century? The one that likes to predict childrens' deaths?
If who they are, where they are, etc can influence seers ... who's to say that Trelawney didn't put her own, completely batshit insane twist into things?
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Post by kumainpink on Jun 16, 2012 5:22:21 GMT -5
Shezra, that is one of the sanest things I've ever read! Now why couldn't Dumbledore see it that way?
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Post by Ithiarel on Jun 16, 2012 5:36:49 GMT -5
@ sherza:
Yes! Of course she is! That's one of the reasons why I always thought the whole prophecy was screwed up...
But Trewlaney's everyday person doesn't change the reality of some facts:
1) She's British and as such would instinctively understand the "seventh month" to mean July.
2) She grew up under the threat of Voldemort and thus would most likely refer to him as "the Dark Lord"
3) She has proven to be able to make at least halfway correct prophecies when she foretold "the servant returning to his master" in PoA.
The last point is important to me, because her reaction after that prophecy (i.e. not even having noticed that she made a prophecy) is very similar with her reaction after the one she made about Voldy and Harry.
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sherza
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Post by sherza on Jun 16, 2012 5:42:28 GMT -5
But she also embellishes like holy hell. Witness the 'greater and more terrible than ever he was' in the second prophecy. Voldemort's second rise was ... nowhere NEAR the depth, scope, or sheer impact of his first, and he himself was ... yeah. Not improved at all.
If someone's embellishing, it puts the ENTIRE prophecy into doubt, because what else are they changing to suit their purposes, whether consciously or unconsciously?
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Post by isk2837 on Jun 16, 2012 5:52:09 GMT -5
He managed to take over the Ministry of Magic, effectively ruling all of Britain for a while. That makes Voldemort's second rise a LOT worse than his first one in my opinion, even if it was also a lot shorter.
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Post by Ithiarel on Jun 16, 2012 5:55:27 GMT -5
Yes. I think you're right. I totally agree with the embellishing- thing.
But there is still a core of truth deep underneath all that. You just have to dig enough through all of Trewlaney's mumbo-jumbo to reach it. ;D
Honestly, that's why I never trusted Dumbledore's interpretation of the prophecy. There's so much margin for error in interpretating a prophecy like this - it might just be better to ignore its content altogether.
I think, my main point is that Trelawney may be (sub-consciously) able to make real prophecies, but she has -throughout her whole life- gotten so used to embellish on everything she does that it even infuences her while she is in a trance. Like some kind of con-man instinct. It just kicks in, if you want it to or not.
That's why you have to be careful taking what she says at face value, while at the same time completely ignoring it might not be a good idea either...
But, of course, what Dumbledore thought about the prophecy didn't matter at all in the end. Since Snape listened at the door and reported what he heard, it was Voldemort who made the decision to believe in the thing. I imagine that Dumbledore might even have gone with the "just ignore it" option if it had been up to him. But once he understood that Voldy believed in it, he couldn't do so anymore...
It's self-fulfilling, really.
Trelawney spewed out a prophecy (really, it might have been anyone else, it doesn't matter). Voldemort heard it. He believed it. And by doing so created the situation that might make it true in the first place...
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 16, 2012 5:56:20 GMT -5
Just to clarify, I don't insist on the 'end of the seventh month' not meaning the end of July, I am just trying to point out that pretty much every part of the whole thing can be questioned. It's true about the prophecy mirroring the world the seer is knowing, but it's true that we are talking about Trelawney, too. If we strip the prophecy down to the necessities, who knows how much would still be left? Anyway, I find it strange how people so powerful as Voldemort and Dumbledore can put so much stock in something so flimsy and elusive as a prophecy, interpreting it as they wanted and how they tried their utmost to make it come to pass. It would have been interesting to see what happened if Harry just refused to go along with the whole thing. Admittedly, I personally don't believe in the whole diviniation thing, there I am with Hermione and Minerva. sherza: *snicker* Not improved at all? Love that! Considering how he looked like and how he was shaking in fright of an untrained teenager and having to rely on people like Pettigrew, Malfoy and Bellatrix, I couldn't agree more. |
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Post by kumainpink on Jun 16, 2012 5:58:13 GMT -5
100 house points to Shezra  and 200 for Kitty! |
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 16, 2012 6:01:53 GMT -5
Hm ... just thinking - if Voldemort believed in the part of the prophecy he knew, why not using Snape to tell him the other half? For then he'd been wary to attack anyone for fear of marking them as his equal, as I see it.
What would have happened if Voldemort believed in it, but everyone else ignored it? Still find it hard to believe that only Harry could kill that monster. A prophecy wouldn't make Riddle immune to an Avada Kedavra or to a cutting spell at the throat, would it? No matter who threw it?
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sherza
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Post by sherza on Jun 16, 2012 6:02:56 GMT -5
Eleven years of nonstop warfar, untold deaths and destruction ... is accounted less than less than three years? Less than one of which had stooges of his *beginning* to take over the Ministry? Someone clearly has never experienced a war.
Yes, many of his people were in key positions during Seventh Year, but they didn't quite own the Ministry, and while they started doing nasty stuff, it was none of it, I assure you, anything different than what he'd BEEN doing the first time 'round, and for a heck of a lot longer. The only difference was that he and his people had a semi-legitimacy thanks to having a mouthpiece of theirs in the Minister's chair and a few other places. And that, I will guarantee, actually HURT him, because when people got the word the Ministry had 'fallen', a ton of people bolted, and only complete idiots reported willingly for the Muggleborn testing. Everyone with sense fled and/or hid, or was dragged in kicking and screaming before they could.
Honestly, if you don't think Voldie and co spent the entirety of their first 11-year run killing any Muggle, Muggle-born, and Blood Traitor they could get their hands on, and destroying as much property as they could, you're being silly. Worse, at the time, Tommy boy was still ... well, mostly human. Certainly not as snake-ish as during his second run, and also nowhere NEAR as batshit insane. Both of which meant he was more of a terror the first time 'round.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 16, 2012 6:09:37 GMT -5
And if the first war hasn't been horrible, then there would be no need to be so dead afraid of just saying the name Voldemort.
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Post by Ithiarel on Jun 16, 2012 6:09:46 GMT -5
Hm ... just thinking - if Voldemort believed in the part of the prophecy he knew, why not using Snape to tell him the other half? Voldemort is... just dumb. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, Voldemort is one of the worst villains of literary history (and I don't mean "worst" in the sense of evil). He simply had no common sense at all. Who in their right mind would have their minions wearing masks?!? Or mark them with something as obvious as a tattoo?!? A prophecy spoken to finish him off... that's just so cliché I'd be surprised if he hadn't fallen for it. *sigh* Probably stroked his ego, too. *mumble* *grumble* |
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 16, 2012 6:13:22 GMT -5
LOL - dear Tommy wouldn't be pleased with your opinion!
Which proper evil villain keeps holding speeches before he kills his victim, and then is surprised when said victim doesn't bow down to his genius and evilness, but uses the time to escape?
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Post by kumainpink on Jun 16, 2012 6:15:54 GMT -5
Good old Moldy-shorts, of course |
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Post by Ithiarel on Jun 16, 2012 6:17:44 GMT -5
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and 200 for Kitty!