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Post by thepurplepen on Jul 13, 2012 8:38:38 GMT -5
I was curious about what everybody thought inspired Sirius send Snape to the Whomping Willow during the full moon.
Was it just a throwaway comment that he didn't think Snape would pay attention to? A little like "Oh, you want to know why Remus is going down there? Well, why don't you follow him and see?" A lot of people seem to think that was it but I'm not so sure. Despite the impressions some people seem to have, Sirius is not a stupid person and that is a stupid person's assumption.
Or did Snape make some comment that pushed Sirius' buttons and led to Sirius doing something so rash and impulsive? Possibly something about Remus?
Personally I think Snape said something about Regulus becoming a Death Eater and common sense was wiped from Sirius. A lot of people seem to think that Sirius hated Regulus and to an extent I agree. However, I also think that Sirius loved him as well. Maybe it's me grasping at straws but when Sirius and Harry are standing in front of the Black Family Tapestry in OotP and Sirius explains about his brother joining the Death Eaters he calls him a "stupid fool", or something to that effect. I always that as being something raw, like Sirius was grieving or something.
Anyone else have a theory or opinion?
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Post by Ithiarel on Jul 13, 2012 9:06:05 GMT -5
Personally I think Snape said something about Regulus becoming a Death Eater and common sense was wiped from Sirius. That seems like a gross overreaction to me. I mean, how old was Reg at that point? 13? 14? I love my sister, but if someone had told me, back when she was 14, that she was going to become an evil twisted loon, I would have laughed in their faces and said: "Let's wait another year, yes?" Things change so fast at that age... No, personally, I always thought that the pranks and attacks they made on each other grew steadily worse over the school year, until at some point the situation had escalated and Sirius just went to far. These are teenaged boys we are talking about. They aren't know for thinking about the consequences of their actions before acting... And teenagers are known to go too far; to react in a way totally unproportional to the situation... |
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Post by Nahara46 on Jul 13, 2012 10:43:36 GMT -5
Personally I think Snape said something about Regulus becoming a Death Eater and common sense was wiped from Sirius. That seems like a gross overreaction to me. I mean, how old was Reg at that point? 13? 14? I love my sister, but if someone had told me, back when she was 14, that she was going to become an evil twisted loon, I would have laughed in their faces and said: "Let's wait another year, yes?" Things change so fast at that age... No, personally, I always thought that the pranks and attacks they made on each other grew steadily worse over the school year, until at some point the situation had escalated and Sirius just went to far. These are teenaged boys we are talking about. They aren't know for thinking about the consequences of their actions before acting... And teenagers are known to go too far; to react in a way totally unproportional to the situation... Your sister isn't part of a dark family who supports a dark lord and in Slytherin, surrounded by people who are joining aforementioned dark lord. Though, I do think that Regulus was a bit old when he joined- around Draco's age of 16. |
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Post by ykickamoocow on Jul 13, 2012 10:47:42 GMT -5
As a teenager Sirius was not a nice person. Nor was James really.
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Post by Nahara46 on Jul 13, 2012 10:49:07 GMT -5
ykickamoocow - could you elaborate? That doesn't say much of anything to this point...
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Post by ykickamoocow on Jul 13, 2012 10:52:02 GMT -5
ykickamoocow - could you elaborate? That doesn't say much of anything to this point... Sure. Both Sirius and James were bullies who enjoyed praying on people that could not really defend themselves. It is mentioned in Snape's worst memory that Snape is not the only student they bully. I know they are on the good side but in many ways their behavour is a lot like Draco Malfoy's in the books as Draco also bullied people that could not defend themselves. |
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Post by Nahara46 on Jul 13, 2012 10:53:30 GMT -5
I don't think that they bullied people because they were weak... More because James and Sirius were hypocites and judged people based on what house they were in, and decided to bully them because they though Slytherin's were bad people.
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Post by viralic1 on Jul 13, 2012 11:37:38 GMT -5
I think to be fair, the only time we ever hear about them is from Snape's point of view really, with the exception of the incident that pushed Snape to call Lily a mudblood, but we don't know what caused that incident.
This was taken from what I said on the thread Was Slytherin Humiliation Necessary?
'I actually read a nice little story where they had the "real" events of what happened with the Sirius/Snape incident, and to me it made a lot more sense.
Essentially, Snape already knew Moony was a Werewolf, and had made remarks that he would "let it slip" (sound familiar?) and have Moony executed by pureblood bigots. Sirius dared Snape to go because Snape knew about Moony, so there would be no danger and he didn't expect him to go. Snape used a sleeping potion to knock out Sirius and Pettigrew, and went anyway. The reason Sirius only got detentions is because Dumbledore knew Snape had baited him, and he knew he went there on purpose, and was in no danger and only using the incident as an excuse to have a "rabid werewolf" put down.
The entire plan was for Snape to frame Moony, and have the Ministry execute him. Sirius daring him was just a plus, because he knew he could use Sirius' words to have a reason to go, not only having Moony executed but also framing Sirius for "attempted murder"'
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Post by G. Novella on Jul 13, 2012 11:56:18 GMT -5
I don't think so, I always felt that Sirius was rash. For him, consequences didn't exist, or for James. Neither of them saw themselves as fallible, and by extension, never saw their group as fallible. As a child, Sirius's parents while rough, probably explained away his pranks and rudeness as boyishness, and probably encouraged it (Pre-Hogwarts age) which would lay the groundwork to make him consider pranks as harmless, even if he hated his parents and family, their parenting laid a groundwork of his basic personality.
Later on, I bet Snape stood up to him, and as the year passed, they got aggressive (both sides). Then the Willow incident probably occurred between the two when Sirius was already stressed about his parents (That summer he ran away, remember?) and in an aggressive mood. Snape must have been fishing around about Lupin and kept asking questions. I bet Snape was smart enough to link the Willow's planting to Lupin and most likely saw them sneak out already. All he needed was Sirius to snap one minute, which Sirius probably did in a fit of anger.
I doubt it was an elaborate plan, just an unfortunate sequence of events (like that entire timeline was)
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 13, 2012 14:08:38 GMT -5
I think it was a bit of both Vira and Gnovella's theories meshed.
Originally, Severus just wanted to get his digs in. When Sirius issued the challenge, Severus felt he had to "prove himself" by going. Sirius, meanwhile, never suspected that Severus would really do it.
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Post by SkullAuror107 on Jul 13, 2012 14:52:10 GMT -5
I've always thought that Snape knew about Remus being a werewolf. In his memories it is implied that he had been trying to get Lily to believe his theory on Remus. I don't think she was the only one he told his theory too either. Given Snape's personality I wouldn't put it past him to subtly taunt the Marauder's in a crowd of people about it, trying to make it so that they slipped with the secret or that someone else would catch on. Given that the incident happened the summer after Sirius ran away Sirius was probably not in the right frame of mind to think things through. I've always imagined that Snape came across Sirius alone and went a bit to far with his taunting and then he brought Remus into it and Sirius talked back without thinking and told him how to get into the Shrieking Shack. Personally I don't think that Sirius thought Snape would actually go into the Shack (who would when they knew a werewolf was at the other end?). Which is why I think he waited so long before telling James. I think that after he had some time to cool off and think about what he told Snape he got suspicious and he told James to get his opinion on it. And James probably realized what Snape was trying to do and saved him in order to help Sirius and Remus. The fic viralic1 mentioned before is A Marauder's Plan and I have to agree that that is one of the best explanations for it I've come across. Here's a link to the chapter that explains it: www.fanfiction.net/s/8045114/12/A_Marauders_Plan |
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Post by scifychick812 on Aug 18, 2012 11:51:27 GMT -5
Or did Snape make some comment that pushed Sirius' buttons and led to Sirius doing something so rash and impulsive? Possibly something about Remus? Personally I think Snape said something about Regulus becoming a Death Eater and common sense was wiped from Sirius.
But honestly, who takes the advice of a known enemy?? So I'm pretty sure The Incident was mostly Snape's own fault. |
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Chameleon
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Post by Chameleon on Aug 18, 2012 12:36:38 GMT -5
I agree with most of you. I don't think it was a plan, Sirius thought of, and then let it slip to Snape, how to sneak in. Snape probably somehow twisted it like that in his mind. They bullied each other completely, did everything to push each other's buttons. Sirius was probably alone when it happened, and Snape taunted about his friends or family, and then Sirius got so angry and out of his mind, that he told him exactly how to enter.
But I think it was mainly Snape's fault. If Snape knew that there was a werewolf, as I think he did, why the hell did he go then?
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Post by bobs65 on Aug 18, 2012 14:45:56 GMT -5
I believe it is like Curiosity killed the Cat. Maybe Snape was curious as to where the entrance to the Shrieking Shack was located? I don't believe we will know. People do crazy things without thinking about it all the way through. I believe that Snape wanted to prove something to Sirius, but that is a guess.
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Post by teehee100 on Aug 21, 2012 18:08:23 GMT -5
I think that both were wrong to do what they did. Sirius for saying to go there and Snape for listening. There is actually a lot of scientific evidence to show that the teenage brain isn't well equipped to think of consequences amoung other things. It also goes to show, that no one is perfect.
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Chameleon
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Post by Chameleon on Aug 22, 2012 8:14:02 GMT -5
Should so tell my mother that, next time she complains I don't care enough about consequences.
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Post by 19811945 on Aug 22, 2012 9:54:27 GMT -5
They pushed each others buttons a bit too much and with Snape's curiosity regarding Remus' monthly jaunts got the better of him.
There were no consequences or punishments afterwards to either Snape or to Sirius/Remus regarding this incident. If they were, it seems that it was all brushed under the rug.
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Chameleon
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Post by Chameleon on Aug 22, 2012 14:47:37 GMT -5
Yeah ... Well, if anyone deserved punishment or something it was Sirius and Snape in that case. Remus has no fault in this.
They say it got brushed under the rug, but it could be that they got a lot of detention.
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Post by readingdeatheater on Aug 22, 2012 16:10:12 GMT -5
I would say snape made some comment about Sirius being a Disgrace to his family and at least his brother knew where his loyalties lay and that was with the dark, this would have caused everything that his mother ever said to come crashing down and also manage to insult his brother in one go.
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Post by SkullAuror107 on Aug 22, 2012 17:14:04 GMT -5
After looking at the timeline on the HP Lexicon I think it has more to do with just the regular taunting between them and curiosity on Snape's part. According to the timeline the "prank" happened at the beginning of their sixth year. Snape had just spent his summer in an abusive home mourning the loss of friendship and the possibility of something more with Lily (which happened at the end of fifth year due to the public humiliation the Mauraders put him through). He probably spent that entire summer coming up with possibilities of revenge on them and the perfect opportunity arose on the night of the full moon soon after returning to Hogwarts. What better revenge then getting the four of them expelled and possibly worse?
As far as punishment is concerned I think if anyone got punished it would be only Sirius and Snape. And even then I would say Sirius got more of a punishment then Snape from the teachers.
I think Snape probably thought that not being allowed to tell anyone what happened was a bigger punishment then any amount of detentions given and points lost.
And with Sirius I'm sure the others punished him in their own way (which was also probably worse then a teachers punishment), he did after all betray their trust and nearly ruined Remus' life.
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Post by Kitty279 on Aug 23, 2012 0:30:15 GMT -5
Don't forget that Sirius ran away in the summer after fifth year; we don't know what happened between him and his parents. Snape taunting him - and I am sure he found out from Regulus - might have caused Sirius to snap, too.
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Post by IceBlueRose on Aug 25, 2012 12:49:45 GMT -5
I always thought that the explanation in A Marauder's Plan was one of the best that I'd seen - neither thinking of the consequences and neither of them fully innocent either.
I've always wondered since I first read the timeline on when it was supposed to have happened - does anyone have evidence that the Lexicon's timeline is correct? It just feels off to me since in Snape's memories, he and Lily actually talk about it and then the next memory that follows is the memory where he calls her a mudblood and then the next is Lily refusing Snape's apology and refusing to talk to him. It just seems odd that JKR would put all the memories except those three in chronological order so I always thought that the incident happened in fifth year rather than after.
I could definitely be wrong, I'm actually going to go look at my copy of DH again to be sure I'm actually remembering the order of the memories correctly but the Lexicon timeline always throws me off if I take the chapter of Snape's memories into account.
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Post by Kitty279 on Aug 25, 2012 12:52:52 GMT -5
You're not the only one confused with the timeline. I see alternately fifth and sixth year for that incident and get more and more confused with what's correct in the first place.
Otherwise, I feel pretty much the same about the incident. That story said what I always thought.
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