sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jul 14, 2012 16:41:34 GMT -5
You know what? I just realized something.
Grindlewald was active during WW2, right? About the time Tommy boy was in school?
Does anyone other than me remember that, at the time, Dumbles was a Transfiguration Professor?
So how the FRACK was Dumbledore active enough in the war effort to have been the one to deal with Grindlewald? He wasn't Mr. High-and-Mighty, do-what-I-want 'cause-the-world-loves-me' at that point! So he ... what? Snuck out of the school at night? Only did anything during the couple of weeks in summer when he wouldn't have been up to his ass with grading, scheduling, and suchlike teachery things?
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Post by lucyolsen on Jul 14, 2012 17:03:26 GMT -5
It's not like he was very active in the war and he just randomly happened to be the one to come across Grendewald and therefore take him out. They were old friends, and one of them probably invited the other to meet. Grindlewald probably knew or suspected about Dumbledore's feelings for him.
Maybe it was around Christmas instead of Summer, but I don't see why it isn't possible.
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jul 14, 2012 17:09:49 GMT -5
I didn't say it wasn't possible, just really odd as hell, and makes the accolades he got for *dealing* with Grindlewald just that much more hollow ... because he just *happened* to show up in the right place at the right time, rather than being active in the war effort. *snort*
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 14, 2012 17:18:56 GMT -5
Maybe he'd proved that he could help, before he became a teacher, and that was why he got involved.
We don't know what Dumbledore did between the death of his sister and becoming Transfiguration professor, heck, we don't even know when he became a professor, but for all we know, he may have got involved in a wizarding version of WW1 and after that was over, became a teacher, so people knew he would be able to help.
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Post by lucyolsen on Jul 14, 2012 17:19:32 GMT -5
Yes, the people who get the credit are rarely the ones who put forth the most work. They are usually just the ones who are the most showy about it.
He got the credit because he beat up the bad guy. That is all.
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Post by blackroses77 on Jul 14, 2012 20:56:22 GMT -5
I didn't say it wasn't possible, just really odd as hell, and makes the accolades he got for *dealing* with Grindlewald just that much more hollow ... because he just *happened* to show up in the right place at the right time, rather than being active in the war effort. *snort* I know you don't like Dumbledore but this argument just doesn't work. He did deserve the accolades he got for defeating Grindlewald even if that was the only time he did anything in the war effort. I mean that's like saying that if a civilian who hadn't fought in a single battle happened upon, say...Hitler and fought with him and managed to kill him that they wouldn't deserve a medal or recognition just because that was the only thing they had done in the war. |
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sherza
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Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jul 14, 2012 21:00:04 GMT -5
I didn't say it wasn't possible, just really odd as hell, and makes the accolades he got for *dealing* with Grindlewald just that much more hollow ... because he just *happened* to show up in the right place at the right time, rather than being active in the war effort. *snort* I know you don't like Dumbledore but this argument just doesn't work. He did deserve the accolades he got for defeating Grindlewald even if that was the only time he did anything in the war effort. I mean that's like saying that if a civilian who hadn't fought in a single battle happened upon, say...Hitler and fought with him and managed to kill him that they wouldn't deserve a medal or recognition just because that was the only thing they had done in the war. Oh, not *all* the accolades were undeserved, I'll grant that, but your hypothetical random civilian that offed Hitler wouldn't have then been permitted to become head of the UN AND the head of a nation's judiciary body largely on the strength of that accomplishment, nor would their word have been heeded as gospel by the masses on any and every issue. Most, if not all, of Dumbledore's 'image' rested squarely on his defeat of Grindlewald, and was only later strengthened by his stand against Voldie. If all he did was take a five minute break during Christmas or summer hols and go kosh Grindlewald over the head, yet was elevated to the level he was at just before Voldie showed up, that's what I call hollow. |
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Post by lucyolsen on Jul 14, 2012 21:04:31 GMT -5
Oh, yes, because the wizarding world isn't shallow and superficial at all. It's hardly Dumbledore's fault that he was handed more power than he deserved.
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jul 14, 2012 21:06:14 GMT -5
Oh, yes, because the wizarding world isn't shallow and superficial at all. It's hardly Dumbledore's fault that he was handed more power than he deserved. *snickers* No argument there. I'm just saying it makes it rather hollow. He did deserve *some* sort of recognition for dealing with the problem (like that Order of Merlin), but the rest? Yeesh. Definitely hollow. |
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Post by blackroses77 on Jul 14, 2012 21:20:12 GMT -5
I know you don't like Dumbledore but this argument just doesn't work. He did deserve the accolades he got for defeating Grindlewald even if that was the only time he did anything in the war effort. I mean that's like saying that if a civilian who hadn't fought in a single battle happened upon, say...Hitler and fought with him and managed to kill him that they wouldn't deserve a medal or recognition just because that was the only thing they had done in the war. Oh, not *all* the accolades were undeserved, I'll grant that, but your hypothetical random civilian that offed Hitler wouldn't have then been permitted to become head of the UN AND the head of a nation's judiciary body largely on the strength of that accomplishment, nor would their word have been heeded as gospel by the masses on any and every issue. Most, if not all, of Dumbledore's 'image' rested squarely on his defeat of Grindlewald, and was only later strengthened by his stand against Voldie. If all he did was take a five minute break during Christmas or summer hols and go kosh Grindlewald over the head, yet was elevated to the level he was at just before Voldie showed up, that's what I call hollow. No that wouldn't have happened in real life, but this series wouldn't have been possible if JKR had had to follow logic and what would have happened in real life. And for as much as we all rant about the plotholes and what would have been more realistic the books would have been a hell of a lot more boring to read if they had been written that way. And while some thing's are inexcusible (such as JKR's handling of Harry's abuse) everything else just depends on how people want to look at it I guess. But nothing is black and white. Dumbledore can be taken as the story intended, good, grandfatherly, doing the best he can which makes great fics. Or it is also fun to look deeper, to twist JKR's intentions (which I have done myself when thinking about the stories) and write great Dumbledore bashing fics. I like seeing him written both ways. And this totally got off topic  Sorry. It's just this has been bugging me lately. |
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jul 14, 2012 21:24:24 GMT -5
This actually wasn't posted as a bash, just a 'wait a minute here ... PLOTHOLE!' realization that didn't really fit in any of the currently active threads. Things didn't quite seem to fit right, you know?
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Post by blackroses77 on Jul 14, 2012 21:56:18 GMT -5
I don't know if it would have been a plot hole because Dumbledore had already made a name for himself when he was quite young hadn't he. So he was already well known and I'm sure he could have been involved in the war even if he was a teacher at the time as he was able to form the Order during the first war and be the Leader of the Light when he was Headmaster and had a lot more responsibilities than just a teacher would have. So no I don't think this particular part of the story was a plothole.
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jul 14, 2012 22:09:24 GMT -5
I don't know if it would have been a plot hole because Dumbledore had already made a name for himself when he was quite young hadn't he. So he was already well known and I'm sure he could have been involved in the war even if he was a teacher at the time as he was able to form the Order during the first war and be the Leader of the Light when he was Headmaster and had a lot more responsibilities than just a teacher would have. So no I don't think this particular part of the story was a plothole. Made a name for himself how? Doing what? The only things we know about him are the Grindlewald mess and the Flamel co-worker thing ... and it probably happened in that order, since I can't think of any other reason why a six-hundred-plus year old person would otherwise become interested in yet another bright Hogwarts student that is essentially very much like all the other bright Hogwarts students before him. And it's the fact that he's *just* a teacher that's the problem. He is still, at that point, answerable to the Headmaster. He has to run his life by the schedule the Headmaster sets for the school in general, and the Transfiguration teacher in particular, and would have to do the Headmaster's bidding much like McGonagall et al had to do Dumbledore's bidding when he was Headmaster. I don't think Dippet would have been pleased if Dumbledore just waltzed off, without properly asking for time off in advance, to go take care of Grindlewald, or ignored his teacher's duties in some way. As Headmaster etc etc himself, he could give himself wiggle-room and time to do things by arbitrarily going 'Yo, McGonagall, you're doing the paperwork this year. And I'm postponing the Wizengamot meeting for a month. There's some shit I need to do' |
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Post by blackroses77 on Jul 14, 2012 22:16:10 GMT -5
I found this on HP wiki that talkes about Dumbles early achievements that made him famous:
Dumbledore also became very well-connected during his Hogwarts years, making notable friends such as Nicolas Flamel, Bathilda Bagshot, and Griselda Marchbanks, who marked him in his N.E.W.T.s for Charms and Transfiguration and later recalled that he did things with a wand that she had never seen before. He also had several of his papers published during his studies.[7]
During his school years, Dumbledore won the Barnabus Finkley Prize for Exceptional Spell-Casting, became the British Youth Representative to the Wizengamot, and received the gold medal for Ground-Breaking Contribution to the International Alchemical Conference in Cairo.[7]
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Post by blackroses77 on Jul 14, 2012 22:19:56 GMT -5
The site also seems to suggest that he was offered the position of Minister even before he defeated Grindlewald. So he did have political power as well as being popular with the public.
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jul 14, 2012 22:31:17 GMT -5
Not being stubborn here, just curious. I just want to know WHY he came to Flamel's attention.
You gotta realize that at that point, Flamel had been around for five hundred years or so, at least (the book that Hermione read Flamel's age from was said to be old, which means he could have been into his 700's by the time of PS). He's GOT to have seen prodigies before. Repeatedly. Up to and including *past* what Dumbledore pulled. So ... what distinguished Dumbledore from the rest?
Inquiring minds want to know. *snerk* *pokes JKR for answers*
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Post by G. Novella on Jul 15, 2012 2:47:58 GMT -5
Actually, on the point of the civilian, it wasn't so much a random civilian who killed Hitler in this case, it was like Einstein killing Hitler. If Einstein had shown up, and killed Hitler, they'd have offered him everything he wanted on a silver platter.
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 15, 2012 6:20:37 GMT -5
And your point about the book Hermione reading being old, how do we know it didn't have a spell on it to keep the Flamels' ages up to date?
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jul 15, 2012 14:45:48 GMT -5
And your point about the book Hermione reading being old, how do we know it didn't have a spell on it to keep the Flamels' ages up to date? Because that would be ... really? A spell to keep that one fact up to date? Yeah, I vote no. Besides, it's not really an important detail. Given that Dumbledore is over 100 himself, even if Nicky *was* 666 when he died, he was still somewhere in the 500's when he met Dumbledore, just the *high* 500's, rather than mid to low. |
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Post by teflonbilly on Jul 22, 2012 0:57:09 GMT -5
Sorry, but it isn't a plot hole.
Krum in HP7 says that Grindelwald was never a threat to Wizarding Britain because of Dumbledore.
This leads me to believe that Wizarding Britain was not actively engaged in a magical war during WWII as muggle Britain was (though, magical people may have been helping in the muggle war effort.)
Which explains why Dumbledore, at least initially, was not actively participating int he war effort until the final dual. Which may have been when Grindelwald either made his first play for wizarding Britain (Grindelwald's version of the invasion of Russia) or that Grindelwald's depredations on the continent just went so far beyond the Pale that Dumbledore took it upon himself to intervene personally and take down Grindelwald.
And why is it such a stretch to believe that wizarding books don't have self correcting facts? They have moving pictures/drawings printed in them?
TB
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jul 22, 2012 2:57:46 GMT -5
Sorry, but it isn't a plot hole. Krum in HP7 says that Grindelwald was never a threat to Wizarding Britain because of Dumbledore. Ok, that? That just drives me crazier. I mean ... the heck? WHY was Dumbledore's mere presence in Magical Britain enough to keep Grindy from bitchsmacking the place like he was doing everywhere else? When Dumbles didn't have the Wand of Doom yet, and from everything we know, Dumbles' feelings for Grindy were not reciprocated, and one presumes that Dumby would have broken off the friendship about the time Grindy went batshit crazy enough to try to take over the world. I'm not saying it's not possible. I just want to know WHY. This is the sort of shit that makes no sense unless you have all the data, and that sort of thing drives me buggy trying to figure it out. Ok, I can handle that, but again, we're still faced with the whole 'Dumbledore is not yet the shiznit insofar as Magical Britain is concerned. He is just a Transfiguration Teacher.' ... So ... how did that work? Happen during the summer? Did Dumbles take a year off to go kick Grindy's ass? Inquiring minds want to know! Because if he just took off one day in the middle of the school year to kick Grindy's ass, someone was gonna be a bit pissed off at him for, you know, leaving his classes in the lurch for however long it took him to find Grindy and kick the guy's ass. Granted, the pissed-offness might not have lasted past the actual ass-kickage, but still. Dumbledore didn't know for absolute sure he could deal with Grindy, so he had to have taken that into account? Maybe? It's a looooooooooooooooooooong way from moving pictures/drawings to self-updating information of ANY kind, nevermind the sort of information that is linked to whether or not a person is, you know, alive. Is that sort of spellwork/magic possible? Maybe. Would it be found in a book that a SCHOOL could afford to put on its shelves? Hell no. The only thing any kind of similar that we know of is the underage 'Trace' that is owned and run by an entire freaking *government* (the one that's on wands to detect underage magic, that magically disappears at age 17) . A book with that kind of spellwork on it would be insanely expensive. |
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Post by G. Novella on Jul 22, 2012 3:07:29 GMT -5
He was more than just a Transfiguration Teacher though Sherza. He was considered a prodigy at the time and had won several awards in school and impressed most of his teachers, OWL professors, and presumably made several well-placed contacts. He was the one to watch, and when he defeated Grindelwald, it became like he had proved that he was worth watching.
As for the rest, yeah, it's a question that can be considered.
Yes, but this is the only school for the entirety of Britain. They may not have self-updating books, but they'd make damn sure to have updated information to maintain the whole "we're the most fucking awesome place to have your kids learn" thing they have going on.
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Post by teflonbilly on Jul 22, 2012 3:13:33 GMT -5
Sorry, but it isn't a plot hole. Krum in HP7 says that Grindelwald was never a threat to Wizarding Britain because of Dumbledore. Ok, that? That just drives me crazier. I mean ... the heck? WHY was Dumbledore's mere presence in Magical Britain enough to keep Grindy from bitchsmacking the place like he was doing everywhere else? When Dumbles didn't have the Wand of Doom yet, and from everything we know, Dumbles' feelings for Grindy were not reciprocated, and one presumes that Dumby would have broken off the friendship about the time Grindy went batshit crazy enough to try to take over the world. I'm not saying it's not possible. I just want to know WHY. This is the sort of shit that makes no sense unless you have all the data, and that sort of thing drives me buggy trying to figure it out. Dumbledore, even without the Elder Wand, WAS THAT COOL. His day job may have been a mere magical high school teacher, but in his spare time he was Einstein. Discovery of the 12 uses of dragon's blood, implied to be a phenomenal discovery. A child magical prodigy of unsurpassed skill with a wand. An alchemist on par with Nicholas Flamel , he was his partner, not assistant to, not studied under, not apprentice, but partnered with an Alchemist 500 years older than him. And it is blatantly made clear in every way that the older the witch or wizard is (minus someone suffering from dementia) the stronger a witch or wizard gets. That clearly demonstrates Albus was an extremely powerful wizard even upon his graduation from Hogwarts. By 1939 when WWII kicks off for Britain, Albus is already nearly 100 years old. The WHY? that you ask, is right there in the books. Albus Dumbledore, Hogwarts Transfiguration Professor, was a certified badass. What does it matter if Dubledore took off from Hogwarts in the middle of the school year for a couple of weeks? It might not even have taken that long. Grindelwald had his HQ at Nurmengard, he was an arrogant comic book supervillain type, he probably invited Albus in so he could destroy him (thinking he was invincible with the Elder Wand.) It's the middle of WWII, even if magical Britain wasn't actively engaged in fighting Grindelwald at home, I highly doubt if Headmaster Dippet would care of Albus took a couple of weeks of emergency leave to save the friggin' World. Do you even read that much fantasy, magic is magic. It defies the natural, it by definition is super-natural. The baseline you should use, unless told otherwise should be: It.can.do.anything. Now in HP7 we get told the stupid plot required Gamp's Law of Elemental Transfiguration that you can't create food, and that the Killing Curse is unblockable, there are very very few restrictions on everyday enchantments as shown in the HP Universe. Seriously, let go of realism and suspend disbelief, it makes some of this way more fun. Especially if you play paper and pencil roleplaying games, because the bigger your imagination and the fewer restrictions you place on it, the more fun you can have coming up with neat and quirky uses for magic even if you aren't making it go all the way to 11. Cantrips and simple charms can be really cool, like having self correcting/updating data in books. TB |
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 22, 2012 3:14:08 GMT -5
That's another thing I wonder about - is Hogwarts really the only school? I know it's called the best one, but did it really somewhere say that there is no other school for magical children?
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Post by teflonbilly on Jul 22, 2012 3:24:38 GMT -5
That's another thing I wonder about - is Hogwarts really the only school? I know it's called the best one, but did it really somewhere say that there is no other school for magical children? I don't know if she's explicitly said it but JKR has heavily implied that Hogwarts is the only magical school in Great Britain. But, home schooling is said to be heavily used. Which makes absolutely no sense if underage witches and wizards can't use magic at home. But whatever. In my own homebrew fan-universe project/roleplaying campaign world that I'm working for a roleplaying game I'm working on, I'm having their be one major wizarding school per U.S. State (the campaign world is in America) with there being two in Massachusetts: The Salem Witches Institute & Phillips Innsmouth Academy. Miskatonic University is the only wizarding college in New England. TB |
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Post by blackroses77 on Jul 22, 2012 15:34:14 GMT -5
Not being stubborn here, just curious. I just want to know WHY he came to Flamel's attention. You gotta realize that at that point, Flamel had been around for five hundred years or so, at least (the book that Hermione read Flamel's age from was said to be old, which means he could have been into his 700's by the time of PS). He's GOT to have seen prodigies before. Repeatedly. Up to and including *past* what Dumbledore pulled. So ... what distinguished Dumbledore from the rest? Inquiring minds want to know. *snerk* *pokes JKR for answers* He probably came to Flamel's attention when he received the gold medal for Ground-Breaking Contribution to the International Alchemical Conference in Cairo while still only a student at Hogwarts. This along with everything else he achieved that I put in a previous post is what prompted Flamel to seek out Dumbledore. As for leaving school to fight Grindelwald he might've taken a leave of absence or he might have only taken a day to defeat him like Voldemort was defeated in 24 hours at the Battle of Hogwarts. |
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Sorry. It's just this has been bugging me lately.
