Do you like Dumbledore?

[moonlightfox143]

I've seen a lot of Dumbledore bashing lately, and I just want to know if anyone else still likes him despite his mess ups.

[Kitty279]

Dislike him, definitely. He may have meant well, but in his need to orchestrate every little thing kept disregarding other people's lives and happiness. And his secrecy caused too many deaths.

[blackroses77]

I like him as a character when I'm in the mood to just take the book at face value but I also like to look beyond that and dig deeper and when I do that it is clear that dumbledore was at best a manipulative jerk and at worst a horrible person. That's why I like stories with good dumbledore but also like the stories that expose him for what he really was, i.e. dumbledore bashing stories.

[physicssquid]

I like him, and prefer good-Dumbledore, but do occasionally read Dumbledore-bashing.

[G. Novella]

I liked him a lot until people started pointing out his flaws. I still find most bashes too far-fetched, so I avoid them like the plague. I'm mostly neutral on the man now, but I find people take canon Dumbledore and mix him into fanon way too often.

[werewulfking]

One of my favourite characters. Just the right amount of madness everyone wishes their teacher would have.

[Chameleon]

I like Dumbledore. I know he had his faults, but I completely adored him, when I grew up and watched him in the movies. My brother and I were completely shocked when we learned of Dumbledore's death.

[brokenquill92]

As a person I like him but his choices as far as sacrifice and people's lives are dangerous and concerning

[teehee100]

I know he was a great wizard, but I think he felt he had to do a lot of stuff. He didn't have to run the Order. I also think that he had more power than he would admit. He said he was just a school teacher, but later on he was Supreme mugwhump and something else. He also had a great deal of power in politics. So while not minister, he did have a lot of power.

I also dislike a lot of his decisions with Harry. I feel like he shouldn't have had so much control over his life. He was Harry's headmaster, not his gardian. In a way, the people who he tried to protect ended up with problems. Ariana, Harry, snape, and Sirius.

[Kitty279]

Yeah. As Headmaster of Hogwarts he influenced the kids for generations, and these then went on to work at the Ministry and elsewhere still considering him the best since Merlin. Plus, he was Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot and Supreme Mugwump of the ICW - theoretically that gives him at least as much influence as the Minister, even if probably not exact the same power. He just didn't have to bother with the daily routine stuff in the Ministry.

Oh, I dislike his decisions, too. And he didn't learn from his mistakes. They kept Ariana hidden, and it cost her life. He went on to keep Snape as his spy at Hogwarts, regardless of how he ruined the careers of his students and bullied 3/4 of the school. He kept Trelawney at the castle, doubtlessly 'for her own good', too. He forced Harry to the Dursleys 'for his own good', because he put questionable blood-wards over his happiness (and how was he safe from the Dursleys? But it doesn't count, he was safe from Voldemort and that's all that matters *growl*), so he basically kept him prisoner at Privet Drive. He kept Sirius basically a prisoner at Grimmauld Place, regardless of what it did to him. The great Albus Dumbledore knows what's best for everyone, their own opinions and feelings be damned. He wants to keep them alive, but at the cost of their lifes - he took their free will, forced them into bad living circumstances just so he could have his pawns when he needed them. That's how it looks for me.

[jaffaninja]

I think one of the reasons some people dislike Dumbledore so much is that at the start of the series, we all saw him as a powerful, grandfather-ish wizard, leader of the light. This image was kept up through most of the series, but then he was brought down at the end after his death. He was only human. His mistakes were bigger than a lot of people's, true, but I don't think he was manipulative (at least not to the extent of many Dumbledore-bashing fics) and people often forget that he did do a lot of good, too.

I think it comes down to the fact that he made some big mistakes, that's all. Everyone makes mistakes. I think he was, genuinely, trying to do what was best for everyone. He had to make hard descisions and he tried his best.

(That said, I do read Dumbledore bashing fics sometimes. There are some quite good ones out there).

[Kitty279]

He keeps too much for himself and doesn't trust anyone enough to share his knowledge and bounce ideas off - so, if he doesn't see the flaws in his plans, then no one else can, until it's too late. The sad thing is that usually others are the ones who have to pay for his mistakes - with their happiness and their lives.

[ayrine]

I think the blame is on everyone somewhat. The people of the orders "abdicated" their rights to choose on their own in a way, I mean, Dumbledore was charismatic leader and powerful, he liked to make the big decisions and didn't share his informations because he was paranoid, but except few protests from some members, nobody took real initiative to make their own decisions. Apart from Harry who was a minor and couldn't leave the dursley or do magic, all others wizards and witches were free to do whatever they wanted, but they choose to fellow Dumbledore even if they weren't always agreeing with him. It's clear for me, it's easier to let someone else take all the decisions for you and criticize him after he does mistakes rather that taking that responsibility.

I think also Dumbledore forgot how it felt when you are young and you can't just move on on your past, I mean he is 130, he has to think in a ways to stop Voldemort and he underestimated Harry frustration and pain, and the same with Snape and Sirius, he just thought they should get over with it, there were other things more urgent and important but it doesn't work like that and it back-leashed on him.

Also, I like to remind people that it was a war and people get killed in wars, yes Dumbledore decisions' put Harry and some others in bad or frustrating or even dangerous situations but lets not forget who are the real murderers.
And people got saved because of Dumbledore's decisions, it's true that some decisions Dumbledore took were really bad but some others-the majority of them were good.

And civil war are the worst, the enemy is everywhere and you don't know who to trust. I mean we lived here in Algeria something similar, brothers from the same family killed each other, a friend you would confide in would betray you and stab you in the back and get you killed with all your family, nobody was spared, men, women and even children. So I can understand why he only trusted partially some people or why he kept people who were bullies but were also a big advantage against Voldemort.

When you live in terror and violence, I assure you, you don't think like when you live in peace and you are ready to make compromises and sacrifices just to make it stop. That the sad truth.

[Kitty279]

You have a few good points, Ayrine. Though I always wonder how things would have gone if Dumbledore had shared more information - what if he had used the most reliable Order members to hunt doen Horcruxes instead of guarding that stupid prophecy? Destroying Horcruxes was much more important, but Dumbledore kept concentrating on the prophecy. And would people have followed him as blindly if they had more information? He kept too much to himself, so the others had to follow him because they lacked the information to act.

Agreed about Dumbledore forgetting how it is to be young. Or that being kept alive isn't the same as to live. And he turned a blind eye on the warning signs until it was too late *sigh*

I'm sorry you had to go through this; it had to be horrible. Yes, after such experiences, you'd see it more pragmatic than I do!

[ayrine]

Of course things could have turned for the better but also to the worst, I mean, let say Dumbledore told Kingsley, Mc Gonagall and Maugrey. Yes they are more than capable to defend themselves against some DE, but Voldemort is stronger, if they were captured and tortured, they could have talked or worse finished like Berta Jokins.

Also apart from breaking trough the MoM where more help could have been needed and getting better food, they wouldn't have found the others hoxcruxes." Gringott and Hogwarts"

Unfortunately for him, Voldemort gave Harry powers, advantages nobody else had, that why he was chosen by Dumbledore, he know that if Harry got captured, Voldemort wouldn't try to see in his head.

And also Harry didn't ask for help too, I mean he was angry against Dumbledore, felt betrayed, but when he was asked to let some older members of the order to help him, but he didn't. Even after saying that he trusted everyone in that room (the chapter when the privet drive's wards disappear and he is chased by Voldemort).

It's really hard to make those decisions, I mean just imagine if you had all those lives on your shoulders and one mistake could destroy everything.

There is no easy or fail proof solution, in my opinion, It's a matter of choosing the one that cause the less damage.

Oh yeah, after 130, you see the world differently and he would think even if you are kept alive for now, things changes and after the war you will be able to live tomorrow.

He see in the bigger picture in a way, "now we are surrounded by enemies and it's better to lie down and be a little patient", but Harry Sirius even Snape lacked that patience that you only acquire with time and experience.

Thank you for your words Kitty, yes wars are horrible and it's happening now all around the world, if only we could learn from our mistakes and avoid them.

[Kitty279]

And you think Dumbledore himself would have been able to withstand torture indefinitely? No, for me that's not an argument. Plus, is it that good when only *one* person knows how to defeat Voldemort? What if Dumbledore was killed before he could hand that knowledge over to someone? Then no one would have known about the Horcruxes. The old man relied too much on his own invincibility, IMO. And with more people searching, they might have discovered the Horcruxes much earlier.

What powers did Voldemort give Harry? The only one I know of is Parseltongue, which wasn't that much of use save in second year. Otherwise, Dumbledore insisted the power he knows not is love, which is most definitely not from Voldemort. Frankly, the prophecy never made much sense to me. How on earth was Harry made his equal just by the attack? That soulpiece doesn't really count for me, as it didn't do much more than give him headaches and nightmares.

As for Harry not asking for help ... I am not surprised, really. The adults so far were pretty much useless in protecting him; look at how many dangerous and life-threatening situations he got into in the oh-so-safe Hogwarts and right under Dumbledore's nose. Who believed him about the stone? Who did anything to stop the basilisk attacks? Who helped him get out of that questionable contract for the Tournament? Who helped him to survive it? Who helped him when Umbitch tortured him? No, Harry wouldn't feel they are of any use. And while he may have trusted them to mean well, he knows they'd once again treat him like a baby and try to keep him locked up while they did the work. Something he was heartily tired of. Plus, Dumbledore told him to do it, so he felt obliged to go on alone. He was listening way too much to the old man for my taste.

Yeah, but I admit, his tendency to wait for things and be patient gave me the impression that he's doing nothing that's even remotely effective. And in the meantime, people were dying.

True. Sometimes I really get the feeling that humankind is developing backwards. We don't learn from our mistakes at all, or at least most don't but keep repeating them because they believe they know better. Makes one rather cynical about the future of our world.

[ayrine]

Yes Dumbledore wouldn't withstand torture indefinitely, but Voldemort hid from Dumbledore, for me it was Voldemort using guerrilla warfare, using spies and always working in the dark and never really dueling seriously Dumledore were the reasons why Dumbledore couldn't kill him.

I mean Dumbledore was Killed by Snape, you had think Voldemort would want to finish him himself, Dumbledore along with Harry was the symbol of the resistance after all, why didn't he duel him? He was an old man after all, but Voldemort was frightened of him, too cautious with him, but he wasn't with Harry, he saw Harry as a bug because Harry isn't interested in power and showing off big ostentatious magic, he has love and Voldemort did terrible mistakes because he underestimated him.

That's one of Harry advantages, the other power is the capacity to see in his mind, creepy and dangerous but advantageous too.

So, the way I see it Voldemort wouldn't confront Dumbledore if he could, and I think Dumbledore knew it. That what Dumbledore counted on.
As for him dying before he could tell anyone, it's a possibility, true, the same as Dumbledore dying before even learning about the Hoxcruxes. Or Voldemort discovering that his secrets weren't ones anymore.

So it's really about what is less dangerous in one opinion, I mean let suppose Dumbledore died before he shared the truth but that doesn't mean nobody else would understand it after him, maybe not immediately or as easily or found all their exact positions, but neither Dumbledore did for the last one. And RAB did it once, and Slughorn know about them.
But in the other hand, if Voldemort had discovered it, now it would really be finished.

I doubt they would have found the horcrux in Gringott or Hogwarts without Harry, I mean Harry only realized it because bellatrix got crazy with fear. And the one of Hogwarts, he only know it because he has already seen it before. Of course Dumbledore didn't knew that but he knew that Harry was the one who would understand Voldemort the best and have access to his mind. They weren't.

You know your argument for Harry not trusting adult because of his past could be used for Dumbledore too. Not that I am blaming them.
Being betrayed and seeing what he has seen, he could only trust partially, like Harry didn't think that adult could help him.

As for Harry listening too much to Dumbledore, it's still a matter of his choice, by then, he knew that Dumbledore was fallible and hid much from him, but it was easier to just fellow than take risks and possibly blow everything. He also respected his intelligence.

That what a strategist do I think, you be patient wait your time for the best moment to attack. Doesn't mean you are doing nothing. But sometimes, it's more complicated and you can't just go out and act rashly.

An example, even if it's in a different level, is what happening in the world now, even if a lot of people are protesting about the economical decisions of their governments and want a better regulation of finance, they still can't really do anything because some other people are just too powerful and get their way, so direct confrontation is difficult. Well that how I see it.

[Kitty279]

Personally, I don't think Dumbledore would have killed Voldemort even if he had the chance, the man is way too much into second chances for hopeless criminals. Showing mercy could turn a megalomaniac psychopath into a good little boy, right?

Voldemort feared Dumbledore, yes, but I wonder why he didn't send someone else way earlier to kill Dumbledore? He doesn't care too much if his own minions are injured or killed, I believe, and the advantage for him would have been immense.

Hm, never saw that connection as something positive, because most of the time, it was turned against Harry. Dumbledore should have tried to find a way to cut that connection for good.

As for Dumbledore taking his knowledge with him to the grave - sure, someone could have found out, but as no one had even remotely the knowledge, it could have taken decades - decades who would have cost many lives. Slughorn wasn't going to own up to his mistake any time soon, Regulus was dead, so who was supposed to even guess what was really the case? They'd not have known that there are Horcruxes in the first place. And Dumbledore told no one about his research on Riddle until he was actually dying. If he hadn't made it far enough to get Snape's help, no one would even have known anything.

What I don't get is why Dumbledore spent all year showing Harry these memories and did nothing to use the Order to help search. He left everything to a teenager (or three), even after seeing what protetions were on the ring. Did he expect that every other Horcrux was completely unguarded? That Harry would be able to deal with god knows what dark magic? He had easy access to a curse-breaker and to skilled Aurors, why did he not ask that they help Harry? They might have needed Harry to find the Horcruxes, but why couldn't the others help to retrieve and destroy them? Sirius as a relative of Bellatrix might have been able to gain access to the vault, or maybe they could have talked the goblins into helping - their main goal is to make money, war is bad for the economy, so they might have considered to help to destroy Voldemort. And Bill would have known how to destroy Horcruxes, which Dumbledore neglected to explain to the kids. Sure, he willed the sword to Harry, but he should have known that he doesn't have the right to it and someone would deny it.

Another ironic part - Dumbledore can't trust anyone, but he expects Harry to blindly trust him even after he failed him time and again. Frankly, I always thought it very unrealistic how that was in canon - Harry comes over as a brainwashed little pawn at times. It's one of the things that annoy me about the series.

Yes, it may be complicated, but I wonder if they did anything save guarding that stupid prophecy and playing watchdog for Harry (not that it did any good). Canon really doesn't show much more. To me it always looks like Dumbledore did put too much stock in raising Harry as a pig for the slaughter, trusting that would put the problem to rest. The man had three influential offices, but didn't seem to do much. Maybe I expect too much, and he may have done more we weren't told about, but that's just it - we don't ever see him even trying much of anything, save meddling with Harry's life.

As for our own world ... true. That's a powder barrel that can go up pretty fast. I keep wondering where the uproar is going to start - and if they will be able to contain it. The grumbling gets louder everywhere, and I can't help but wonder how things will be in 10 years. And it worries me.

[ayrine]

If you seriously think that Dumbledore didn't want to kill Voldemort so why bother searching for the Horcrux at all? Just keep preaching and Voldemort will turn Care-bear eventually.
It's true that he tries to reason with him first and doesn't start firing Avada immediately but I think if Voldemort had accepted dueling him instead of running away each time, he would have vanquished him.

And there is nothing that says that Voldemort didn't want to send some DE to kill Dumbledore before. But who? It had to be someone close of him and who he trusted? the only other spy we know about in the Order was Peter. You imagine Peter trying to kill him, lol. Dumbledore may be giving second chances and all, but that doesn't mean he let down his defenses. Giving a second chance doesn't mean acting like an idiot.

It was the first opportunity because he thought that Snape was close to Dumbledore and it was also a test to Snape' loyalty to the DE.

Of course he doesn't care if they die or live when they can't serve him, but they are his soldiers, he won't get them killed and loose his supporters when he is sure at 99% that it would fail.

Not agreeing it turned against Harry once and of course it's to take with caution but it helped more than once.
1.saved Arthur.
2.localized the last Horcrux.
3.gave Harry a good idea about what Voldemort was doing and helped him to use that acknowledge in the end of the book.

Yes people would have died if Dumbledore had taken his secrets in his grave and even more people would have died, a lot more would have died if Voldemort had known about it before the end. There would be no way to get ride of him anymore.
It's a risk Dumbledore couldn't take, you think he should have, I am not sure what the he should have done, but I see why he did it that way.

In my opinion, getting help would make the adventure more sure and easier on Harry, but I can't deny that it made the secret a lot more in danger. The more people know, the more there is risks that Voldemort discover what's happening. Well, it's complicated.

His offices apart from Hogwarts seem a lot more like honorary influence I mean in book 4, when Harry see Dumbledore memories on the DE trial, it's not him who speak, he doesn't interrogate the accused, it's Crouch, he just vote like all the other judges. In book 5 he loose all those power in less than 1 month. It's clear that justice isn't independent and the ministry is the real one in charge. I am sure Dumbledore would want to give everyone a fair trial, he has nothing to loose to be fair to them and it's in his character, but Crouch didn't wanted to, he was only thinking about his popularity.


Everybody worry about it. Things will change for sure, I just pray it's will change in our advantage and for the poor victims who lost everything.

[Kitty279]

Well, he left all the work to a teenager, right? He told Harry about the Horcruxes and then left it up to him to deal with them. And when he duelled Voldemort, I didn't get the impression he used fatal spells. But admittedly, he was kept rather busy.

Hm ... at Hogwarts, it would have been harder, but the Ministry, for instance, was full of Death Eaters, do you think no one would have been able to get near and shot him in the back? You don't necessarily have to be close to someone to assassinate him. As for acting like an idiot, what do you think about bringing a precious artifact into a school full of children while very likely knowing that it would attract Voldemort or other unsavoury types? And then protect it with stuff first years can beat? It certainly wasn't Dumbledore's best idea.

Ok, the connection had some use, but I never felt it was right how Dumbledore kept the truth from Harry, putting him under more and more pressure because he didn't understand what was going on. And to send Snape, of all people, to teach him Occlumency, ignoring that they hate each others guts, wasn't a great idea, either. Dumbledore should have known from experience that suddenly ignoring Harry and leaving him alone with unanswered questions and this connection only could end in a catastrophe. No, for me it was wrong handled.

Do you really think only telling a bunch of teenagers would have been the best protection? Again, they could have been all killed by the protection on one of the Horcruxes. Then everyone knowing anything would have been dead. Plus, some *reliable* people more searching would in my eyes have reduced the risk, as they could have found the stuff faster. I don't say Dumbledore should have sent the whole Order out, I'd not trust Mundungus further than I can throw him, but a few experienced adults instead of only three teenagers not even out of school and with absolutely no knowledge of how to protect themselves from magical traps was Russian roulette in my eyes. He took an immense and unnecessary risk.

You know, I never understood the whole judicial system. The Wizengamot is supposed the judicial and legal body of the magical world, so why is the Minister - or in case of Barty Crouch - the head of DMLE deciding about everything? Why have a Wizengamot if they have no say whatsoever? They seem to be just for decoration, or to nod laws and judgments off. Logically, they should control the Minister, not the other way around! The Chief WArlock has to do what a department head wants?

Dumbledore was powerful enough to keep Snape out of Azkaban, just on his word. But he wasn't powerful enough to enforce Sirius's right for a trial? And he could be thrown out of the Wizengamot and Hogwarts, but basically reinstate himself again at the end of the book?
Somehow the bit we see in the books doesn't fit very well together; for me it doesn't make much sense.

Yeah, we only can hope for the best, but by now I am rather cynical about it all. With all that is going on, and water resources going down and the weather changing, it doesn't look too promising *sigh*

[ayrine]

A teenager that Voldemort acted like an idiot with. The truth is that apart of Dumbledore's skill and power (if Voldemort accepted to duel), the next best thing was Voldemort errors and him underestimating Harry.
you can use lethal magic other than Avada, I think he was trying to protect Harry in the same time that dueling Voldemort, so yes he was a little occupied.

As for the Horcrux, I disagree, he destroyed one of them and was about to destroy another one, if he wanted to spare Voldemort, why doing that? Of course he was dying and needed a someone to do it after him, but if he had lived, you believe that he would have destroyed all those Horcruxes to in the not kill Voldemort if he could? If he really thought that preaching the good word would suffice, he didn't need to suffer that much, I mean if Voldemort changes, he will feel regret and the Horcruxes will disappear by themselves, no?

It's unfair to Harry, but it's Voldemort who is after him by his own choice.

Even if he was at the ministry without counting all the security, I don't think Dumbledore walked his eyes closed and arms open asking to be attacked. It's possible that there were attempts to his life who failed, because let face it, he isn't that bad at dueling.

DE in the ministry were spies, attacking DD would be a strategic error, if you compare that they have little chance of success while losing the sources of information.

Book 1, is one of the most strange story in HP series, I mean forget DD, you have Nicolas Flammel, 665 years old, genius who invented the philosopher stone, and he choose to place it in a school?
I mean why not hid it with him? he is older than both Voldemort and DD, why didn't he use a better protection (some people were speaking about fidelius..), it makes me think that maybe it was their last resort, that they didn't find another solution, even more they decide to destroy it, I mean, it seem radical, why not hide it again? or JK's just lazy lol.

Anyway for the protections, there isn't ones able to stop Voldemort completely apart from "love", so they were, in my opinion, there to slow down Voldemort until DD come and chase him away. And really just the first and the last one were really difficult, well and the giant chessboard, because you would've to be good at chess, and be a skilled flier and be good at logic.

Yeah he thought they were being childish with their little inter-houses war, I mean they are in the same side, they should just grow up. yeah he is an 130 years old grand-pa who forgot how to be young.

As for the prophecy, I think he should have told him, but in the same time I can't imagine myself saying something like that to a child who has suffered so much, even more if I am partially guilty of it. He was blinded by his emotion.

He ignored him and asked Snape to help because he couldn't do it himself, I mean he was trying to prevent a catastrophe by doing it but he did it the wrong way, I don't know if there was any other person who know Occlumency.
I know some say Sirius being a Black would know, well not necessarily, I mean Draco only learned it from Bella when he became DE, it wasn't a tradition in the family to learn it young and he is a Malfoy and Sirius ran away from home at 16, and he hated Dark Magic, and wouldn't participate if he wasn't forced, and the fiasco Harry-Snape showed, you have to learned it with good grace.

Of course trio could have died, but anyone could have been killed really, RAB, DD are example that even if you know a lot about magic it does little difference in the end. But let put this aside, it's not the real problem in my opinion.

I mean yes, some people are more trustable than others, but this secret was so big, so important that he was extra cautious about it. Then also, even people who were seemingly trustable in the past, turned not being so or not being those person at all like in book 4.

As I said before, using Harry would assure to the maximum that Voldemort doesn't see the truth until the end.

It seem for me that there isn't a good solution, first you have Harry with his power that make him the best candidate to search the horcrux and whose only mind Voldemort wouldn't try to penetrate but he is just 17 years old kid.
Second, you have trustable and good and competent order's members but if they are caught and tortured to speak, Voldemort will hide his Horcrux so that nobody would ever be to find them, ever again.

Either way it's a risk that you have to take, and DD thought that the second solution would make thing worst.


Judicial system is as independent as the ministry want it to be, in peace time they let them have some autonomy, not saying that Fudge never covered for his little friends the pureblood with Gallions like Malfoy, but when there is a war, they use the excuse that the national security prime on justice. That happen a lot even more so in corrupted systems.

I don't think DD reinstated himself, but rather it was a political decision from the minister (either Fudge or Scrimgeour) to appease the people because of the backlash the ministry received after that the truth came into open. It was a way to show that the ministry and DD were all united to fight Voldemort.

DD gave his word that Snape was his spy and vouched for him, he had something to provide against the accusation, he was a witness in his favor.
but for Sirius, he didn't have this luxury, I mean he was the one who gave them the proof that Sirius was the secret keeper and Sirius was framed so brilliantly so the even when he asked (I am sure he did as he did for all others) for a fair trial, he couldn't give any proof to make the balance lean in his favor or make Crouch change his opinion. As for the fact Sirius was good until then, well, isn't it the same way for most Voldemort spy? Crouch probably was in jubilation to have caught such a big fish.

[physicssquid]

I agree with ayrine. Dumbledore was only human, he made mistakes, and as he said, because he was cleverer than many, his mistakes were correspondingly bigger.

While I do agree that maybe it would have been better for him to tell Harry the prophecy earlier than he did, I don't know how Harry would have taken it. He may have suffered, but he was a kid, and no kid is mature enough to understand the concept of kill or be killed, especially not an eleven-year-old.

And by the way, according to Harry Potter Wiki, Dumbledore was born in 1881, so he was 100 when Voldemort was defeated the first time.

[moonlightfox143]

I completely agree with ayrine, but I've had this rant bottled up for a long time, so don't mind me. ;P

[Rant Begin]

Like I've told many a person, Dumbledore was only human, and while most don't believe that's an excuse, I believe it explains a lot.

He fought that war like a general that was surrounded by betrayal. Yes, he didn't tell everyone everything, but what leader would? That's how you get people killed. While I think Dumbledore did make a few big mistakes, I also believe that because I've never witnessed war personally, I could never truly understand whether his choices were right or wrong. Of what little I know about war, I *do* know that it changes everything. That even though, some choices he made may seem thoughtless or wrong to me, who has pretty much only known peace, to someone who has seen war, like ayrine, his choices make sense.

Something else I think people forget, is that we only see one side of the story, *Harry's side*. How do we know what Dumbledore really did tell or not tell the Order? All we saw was a teenagers point of view, who has never been in war. Most of the Order members had, Dumbledore had been through three. I would think that he would have the right to hold his cards close to the chest.

About the Sirius thing:
I honestly don't believe that Sirius was as pissed as people make him out to be. I think, he did understand why he was being hauled up in Grimmauld Place and he accepted it. Does that mean that he wouldn't brood about it anyway? No, absolutely not. It would suck to go from one prison to practically another, and I think that despite his understanding, he would still complain to those who listened. I think everyone seriously underestimates Sirius, though. Just because he ran off with the rest of the Order to save his *godson* doesn't mean he didn't understand why he was being 'grounded' so to speak.

Harry's life before Hogwarts:
Another thing I see people go on and on about, is how Dumbledore left Harry at an abusive home.
Now, right now I will say, I don't really agree with it either, but I've had a few things pointed out to me that do make some sense.

If Harry had not grown up like he did, do you really believe he would have been able to take on what was needed of him? Yes, that means Dumbledore was a manipulator, but really, do you know any leaders that weren't at some point? I don't.

Another thing is, you can't lay all the blame on Dumbledore for that one anyways. McGonagall was there when Dumbles dropped Harry off, so was Hagrid, and where was Remus over all those years? You can't say that Dumbledore stopped him from visiting, because there is no proof to that statement. Where in the books does it say Remus was told to stay away, and just for arguments sake, let's say he was told that. Why would he listen? Harry was the last part of Remus' past, why would he just let it go because some old teacher told him not to? And I notice how no one ever points out that it was incredibly stupid of Sirius to go after revenge, instead of going straight to Dumbles to explain everything, when he had a one year old godson to take care of. I'm not saying we should crucify all of them, I'm just saying you can't lay all the blame at one persons feet.

As for how Dumbles could do such a cruel thing to Harry in the first place... well, I have a theory(Or whatever you want to call it), and while it doesn't *justify* what he did, it might help to understand.

I think after Dumbles heard the prophecy, he was overcome with hope. The kind that makes the anticipation unbearable. So his thought process was "Let's finally get this done, and get it done fast." And having that type of mindset can be dangerous and make people forget the details. When Halloween happened, I think Dumbledore already had a plan and a whole set of theories on how it was going to play out from there.

I agree, that as Dumbledore made these plans and theories, he saw Harry as an important piece in the ending of the war and nothing else. So, yes he manipulated Harry so he would be able to end the war. But despite what everyone thinks, I also believe, that once Dumbledore started to care for Harry, he tried his best to find a way to defeat Voldemort without Harry having to die. Of course I have no proof of this, but I believe it was in his character to do so.

Something, else I realized, (from watching Star Trek no less) was that because Harry did the things he did and because Dumbledore manipulated him the way he did, thousands of lives were saved.
If Harry had not grown up like he had, if Dumbledore had not basically lead Harry to the Sorcerers Stone like he had, I think Voldemort would have risen right then and there and would have most likely won, because they were not ready for him. By the time fourth year came along, Dumbledore was ready and so they did win.
It was basically, sacrifice one life to save a thousand. Does this make it right? No, I don't know that it does, but Dumbledore was a very cynical man, he was a powerful leader and he was very old and because of all this he could only see the big picture and forgot about the details.

I do have more to rant about, but I just got back from a 10 hour drive and I'm exhausted, so I'll leave it here for now.
I have a rant and an opinion on almost every character and if anyone is interested in listening to a 16yo's rants then feel free to message me.

[Rant End]

Now, I must admit someone can probably poke holes in my arguments till they look like Swiss Cheese, but this is just how I see it and I wanted to put my opinion out there as food for thought, is all.
Btw, I think everyone on hear so far do have really good points, this is just the way I saw it.

[Nahara46]

Short and simple- I absolutely love and adore Dumbles. One of my favorite charries in the book! He's a good guy, with huge patches of gray and black. I'm not saying that he was perfect, he obviously made many glaring mistakes, but what's a person without mistakes? They aren't a person.

[moonlightfox143]

Well said, Nahara.