Morality of Crouch Sr.

[melodypottersnape]

Authorizing Unforgivables:

He was head of law enforcement and had to do something. People could not be held in prison. Guards could be imperio'ed or it could be flat out broken into. People were imperius'ed to kill and during battle there was no way to tell the difference. They would stupefy some person only for another to enervate them so they could all send lethal curses. It was either give up or fight back. May not be morally right but how many more options did he have? Though if I were him I would have sanctioned lethal curses instead and the imperius only if loads of paperwork were needed for every individual use.



No Trial for Sirius:

He sent Sirius there with no trial but the fourth book makes it seem as if that was normal procedure. Send them and then they would receive a trial. Remember during this he lost his position because of his son. So someone else had to figure out who had and hadn't received trails. During the chaos paperwork could have got lost and assumptions could have been made. They could have honestly thought that they had given them all trials. And really shouldn't Dumbledore have been the one that should had realized that someone who fought for him at one time received no trial. Even if it was to find out why he betrayed the order and his friends.

On the other hand he could have just not done it to save the court time. Then the question is why not question him for info on Voldemort and troops.



Crouch Jr.'s Trial:

He couldn't go easy on him because it would make it seem that if you had the right connections that you could get away scot free. Though that happened anyway what would happen if his son was guilty and got let go. People would revolt and more would die. While it is disgusting for a parent to rat out their child sometimes it is even more disgusting for them not to.
Example: Bob is a serial killer and has killed dozens in horrific ways. Su is his mother and has to decide to protect her son or protect the ten year old girl he had kidnapped. What is worse?

Imperio'ed son:

He has lost his coveted position and maybe even realized how much family should have meant. His son is being forced under his orders to have every happy memory taken away and to relive the bad ones night and day. His wife is slowly dying and has one request. Save her son from Azkaban. So he does. Then what is he to do with him. Kill him and do what his wife didn't want. Put him in a room where he could eventually escape and murder people. Imperio him where he can never leave but if the spell can be broken by another and he can die and release the spell. Obliviate him of the magical world and somehow bind his magic. Have him learn to live in the muggle world and let him to start anew. Truthfully death or obliviation would be the best answer. Death would be the choice of the Law enforcer. Obliviation would be the one of a father.


Now I'm not saying Crouch Sr. was a good guy but just pointing out motivations and such. What do you all think about the topic?

[ayrine]

Authorizing Unforgivables

It could depend of the situation. If you are out numbered and your enemies are firing killing spells and pain curses, I can't see you getting out of there with a simple stupefy. The only one supposedly that never or rarely used Unforgivables was Mad-Eye and it costed him parts of his anatomy for each time he didn't.

I am not against it if it's only used when you don't have other choices.

No Trial for Sirius

From what I understand, I think that firstly, you have to place it in the context. Voldemort's disappearing had let to chaos because a lot of people who were Imperio'ed came back to themselves. You have to imagine that all those people were brought before the MoM either for testimony against the one who Imperio'ed or/and regarding the crimes they did back then.
Also, people who witnessed crimes in previous years but kept silent because they were afraid, now started speaking. Then you can see the number of trials that were waiting in the immediate after war, even more if you add the DE, mercenaries that worked for Voldemort too (like the snatchers in the 7th) and criminals that just took advantage of the situation of fear and violence to their own interest that the Aurors were trying to capture.

I am trying to say, that they were busy, really busy and when you are harassed, you become neglecting.

I believe that when Sirius was captured he was taken into custody first, Aurors probably tried to interrogate him, but he was in a shocked state and probably wasn't able to respond. So they probably thought he had lost it. It could explain why they never tried to weasel some information from him, especially if he was believed close to Voldemort.

Then I believe some judges (probably not the 50) but maybe 10 of them, reunited in Crouch Sr office along with the chiefs of the departments of the Aurors and Magical catastrophes (Fudge's ancient department)and together they did Sirius trial.
Dumbledore said "I brought Sirius' proof of guiltiness". That mean, together they started to examine the facts but they didn't give him the chance of a defense, and that because Crouch Sr. was sure that Sirius was Guilty.

Let examine them like they did:

C: Sirius Black? AS in the Black family, well I am not surprised they are all Dark Art's lovers and You-Know-Who supporters.
D: But Black disowned his family and fought alongside us against DE and Voldemort.
C: Well he changed his mind. Wouldn't be the first time. Realized he was safer in the other camp or was playing us from the start! either way, the apple never fall too far from the tree. Only you Dumbledore believe in 2nd chances, I know that when robes are stained, you can't clean it to its precedent state, no matter how many times you wash it.

C: anyway what happened?
X: we have witnesses who say the Pettigrow cornered Black, he accused him of Betraying Lily and James Potter. Then there was an explosion. My men got there, it was a total devastation and 12 muggles dead, the only part we found of Pettigrew was his finger. We had lot of work to cover everything. But the most frightening was that we found Black there, wand still at hand and laughing!
A: Laughing ?!!
X: yes, we tried to interrogate him but he wouldn't respond at all.

C: now I understand that Black killed those people, but what about the Potter's betrayal?
D: Well little people know that Voldemort was targeting the Potter family, they worked with me in the Order of the Phoenix, along with Black and Pettigrow. I had a spy in the DE ring that informed me that Voldemort himself had a spy in the Order and that caused a lot of deaths in our camp. He also informed me that that spy was someone close of the Potter, so I suggested to the Potter to go into hiding and use the Fidelius charm.
C: What is it?
D: It's a really complex charm that needs a secret keeper, you magically put the secret-in this case the Potter location-inside a living person and nobody could find them if the secret keeper keep quiet. Voldemort could have looked through their window, he wouldn't be able to see them.
C: who was the Potter's secret Keeper?
D: Sirius Black.

C: I see, we have all the proofs that Sirius Black was You-know-Who supporter, he betrayed his friends, Pettigrow chased him and he killed him along all those muggles, we have witnesses and Black is probably insane because of his master defeat. I think all that deserve a life sentence to Azkaban.
D: Crouch, we can't sentence someone to prison without a trial...
C: Dumbldore we don't have the time for that. Do you know how many cases I still have to oversee? you want A trial for what? he is obviously guilty.
D: But it's only fair to give him the chance to defend himself. Innocent until proven Guilty...
C: He is completely insane, plus, Black isn't innocent. Do you believe he isn't guilty?...
D: What I believe isn't important...
C: So unless you can come with something new , I think we should vote...
C: Sirius Black is condemned to a life sentence in Azkaban prison, proceed immediately.

Sirius probably wasn't the only one being the victim of this expeditiously justice, however after that, Sirius was forgotten rotting in his cell at Azkaban.
That why you need the give trial, even if all the proofs are against someone.
Everybody believed him guilty and abandoned him and that include Dumbledore.
It's true that you could ask why nobody tried to understand what happened to Sirius for him to change? There is no good explanation, only that they know there was a traitor for a year and that probably killed some Order members and they assumed he gave in to his family way in the end. Either way I can imagine they hated him really much and didn't want anything to do with him.

Crouch Jr.'s Trial

Here I believe that Crouch Sr. wasn't thinking about his son or the rest of the world but about his career. He gave his son a trial so he could publicly disavow him, when his son begged him to believe him said "I don't have a son".

He never protected anyone but himself. He never showed remorse or tried to understand his son, he was just bitter because his son had destroyed his political career.

Imperio'ed son

I believe that his dying wife guilt tripped him into saving his son. She probably said: "If you had been more present, we would still be a family. It's all your fault! if he dies there, I will never forgive you! I will curse you! it's all your fault! my son! my poor son, he is too young, he doesn't know better! you bast*rd! I hate you! save my son! have mercy and save my son!"

He probably gave in and helped smuggle his son of prison, but the most disgusting is that he never learned, he had his son with him for more than 10 years, and rather than trying to rekindle their relationship, prove to his son that he loved him and regretted his neglect, showing his son that Voldemort was only using him. He just imperio'ed him, and treated him like a vermin. Winky had to guilt trip him to give him some relative freedom. He wasn't a father, he was a judge, a jury and a executioner all at once.

My conclusion:

That how I see Crouch Sr. an ambitious fool, who was blinded by his power thirst, he neglected his son to the extreme and saw him as another trophy to put in his mantle and once his son stained his perfect reputation, he disowned him.
He didn't know how to love if he ever loved.
He was too rigid, thinking that no mistake could be tolerated or forgiven, the way he freed Winky is a proof. He never tried to save his son or understand him or just love him, he just changed his cell.

[melodypottersnape]

I definitely agree that he was power hungry. I think that is the reason that he badgered Harry Potter and Co. about the Dark Mark. If he was seen finding the criminal responsible for the attack at the World Cup then he could probably reclaim some political power.

There is a chance that at the time that he had not considered that his son was free or he could have known he was and was trying to pin blame on someone else.

[ayrine]

Also, I believe he was head of the DMLE when Sirius was arrested, because Sirius said in the 4th : "I saw them bringing Crouch Jr. and the other...at Azkaban". So when they captured Crouch Jr., Sirius was already in Azkaban.

I think Crouch Sr. stayed the head of DMLE until the election of the new Minister of Magic, because they couldn't afford to make changes at that time and they didn't have anything against him personally.
After the election I think Fudge used Crouch Sr. growing unpopularity as an excuse to isolate him in a less important office, because Fudge recognized that if it wasn't for the scandal with his son, Crouch Sr. would be at his post and he could be a problem in the future.

Yes, he probably thought the events at the World Cup would be an occasion to get some positive publicity or at least he tried to save face, because he was one of the co-organizers of the World Cup (Sport depart. & magical cooperation depart.), so any problems would reflect poorly on his already bad career's history.

For Winky, I really think it shows that Crouch Sr. would abandon anyone threatening his career/reputation. Nobody really believed that Winky was guilty; she could have been like Harry, in the wrong place and wrong time; but being the psychorigid he is, Crouch Sr. didn't show mercy. He just chased her away after years of loyal service for something that wasn't her fault.
He freed her to show that he had no link with the dark mark and also as diversion so they wouldn't search his way or ask questions about his strange behavior that day.

Anyway, it was lucky that the wand was Harry's and he was the one found there. Otherwise if it was anyone else, the poor guy would be rotting in Azkaban. They always need scapegoat, at that MoM!

[Kitty279]

Your theory has one little fault: Fudge wasn't Minister in the 80's, he was elected in 1990. That's why he still needed Dumbledore's advice one year later in PS. From 1980-1990 Millicent Bagnold was the Minister; that information comes from jkrowling.com, her old website.

[ayrine]

Oct 19, 2013 1:29:48 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Your theory has one little fault: Fudge wasn't Minister in the 80's, he was elected in 1990. That's why he still needed Dumbledore's advice one year later in PS. From 1980-1990 Millicent Bagnold was the Minister; that information comes from jkrowling.com, her old website.

OK maybe they changed his position when Millicent Bagnold was still minister and didn't wait the new election 10 years later lol. But again JKR and maths make 2.

I liked the idea of the new minister fearing for his position lol. We don't know when Crouch Sr. left the DMLE and was replaced by Amelia Bones.
Anyway, what is sure is that his unpopularity did cost him the minister of magic position and he found himself in the 2nd rate department.
He could have had enemies, people who didn't like his methods too or their efficiency and that helped his fall in disgrace.

[Kitty279]

The Lestranges and Crouch jr. were caught shortly after the fall of the Dark Lord, which I'd interpret in November or December 1981 at the latest. And that in turn did cost Crouch sr. his job in the DMLE and any hopes of getting the Minister job. So I doubt he was in office much longer than until early 1982, at most.

[ayrine]

OK. It was a cool story though.

[Kitty279]

You can always make an AU story of it, I don't say it couldn't make a good story, just that it doesn't completely fit the facts we know about canon. But that's what AU is for