The fireplace incident of GOF

[Miss Wings]

So does anyone else find it odd how practically every male Weasley went to pick up Harry from the Dursley's when Arthur could have just gone on his own?

[Kitty279]

Oh yes. Why have the Dursleys hooked on the Floo in the first place if Arthur could just apparate to Privet Drive - if necessary disillusioned - pick Harry and his stuff up and side-along apparate him back?

Of course, Ron would want to come because it's his friend, and the twins wanted to come because they wanted to test their candy on the baby whale. But still, it seemed a lot of bother for the occasion.

[Miss Wings]

I think it's rather pointless, not only that but they should have asked Harry if they could put the fireplace on the floo network, that way he'd have been able to attempt to explain it to them. Plus there's always another car.

[Kitty279]

Well, we are talking about wizards, and we both know they aren't exactly logical

[physicssquid]

Logic doesn't seem to have much place in the wizarding world. It seems to me that only those raised in the muggle world have any amount of logic, which would lead me to believe that that might be one of the reasons the pureblood supremacists fear them.

After all, as Yoda said, 'Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.'

It stands to reason that the pureblood supremacists fear the muggle-borns - which leads to them being angry about their fear - and they will then hate the muggle-borns because they fear them, and logic might be one of the reasons for that fear.

[stelladelnordxd]

Apr 6, 2014 20:49:52 GMT -5 physicssquid said:

Logic doesn't seem to have much place in the wizarding world. It seems to me that only those raised in the muggle world have any amount of logic, which would lead me to believe that that might be one of the reasons the pureblood supremacists fear them.

Even Hermione understood that, all the way back in book one:

"Brilliant," said Hermione. "This isn't magic -- it's logic -- a puzzle. A lot of the greatest wizards haven't got an ounce of logic, they'd be stuck in here forever."

And we see a lot of this 'non-logic' throughout the books on the wizard's side of things. -shrugs-    

[Kitty279]

Sometimes I wonder how much that inability to use any logic has to do with inbreeding ... but admittedly, the less inbred magicals are all the same, so maybe nothing.

[RandomPasserby]

You know I have to wonder how much of a right the Dursleys have to be as anti-magic as they are.

They get a baby they didn't ask for left on their doorstep, they are pursued by hundreds of letters, a strange man permanently disfigures their son, a flying car damages their house, their living room is blown up (I'm not sure if it's repaired either), their son is given a magical sweet which again disfigures him, their son is attacked by an invisible soul-sucking creature.

Now I am absolutely not excusing them from abusing Harry but I'd be pretty pissed if somebody did any of those things to me and depending on how much Petunia knows or knew about the wizarding world (can you imagine stumbling over the Obliviate spell in a book your sister had left open on the kitchen table and her blithely saying 'oh it's used for removing memories') finding them terrifying is a pretty reasonable reaction.

That's not to mention Hagrid giving Dudley a pigs tail which hasn't worn off after a month. I mean I wouldn't let my hypothetical kids go to a school where a member of staff could do that to a kid and not get punished. That's like turning up to an open day and a teacher punching your cousin. You sort of expect there to be some disciplinary action but nope, none. Not even the headmaster turning up and removing the tail.

[physicssquid]

Those examples of what magic has been used against the Dursleys only really explain why they would hate magic during the years of Harry attending Hogwarts. What about before? What made them so hateful of magic that they would abuse Harry in the first place?

I'm sure, if Petunia had found out about the existence of the Obliviate spell, then Lily could have explained it in such a way as to make her realise that while it is an unpleasant and, quite possibly, harmful spell if used too much, too often, it can also be helpful in certain circumstances. I get the fact that the idea of magicals being able to play with memories being an unsettling one, but I doubt a non-magical wouldn't have a mental breakdown if they witnessed something truly vile, such as a Death Eater raid, without being Obliviated.

I'm wondering if, maybe, Snape's treatment of Petunia when they were children, wasn't part of the reason she hated magic. After all, from what I've read, in various places, it seems that Petunia and Lily were rather close when they were kids, and it was because of magic that they started drifting apart. Maybe Petunia couldn't cope with the possibility of her being to blame, and blamed both Snape and the magical world for the loss of her sister.

[Kitty279]

Now you have me wondering ... Hagrid wasn't allowed to use magic, so - why didn't the Ministry send anyone to check who had used magic on that little island and why? Sure, they couldn't send the automatic owl because they didn't know who it was, but if they can tell that magic was used in the presence of muggles, as OotP implies, why did no once come? Dumbledore didn't come because I doubt Hagrid would have told him about what he did, and besides, the way he acted in HBP with the Dursleys, he didn't think Muggle baiting was a problem, was he?

Well, Harry being dropped on the doorstep was way before he got to Hogwarts, but otherwise, I agree, the other incidents were too late to explain anything. That's something I always wonder - did the Dursleys get any money for Harry, or did they not? I mean, they were suddenly saddled with a second child, without as much as 'by-your-leave', and had twice the cost. Of course, they could obviously afford it, seeing how much they spent on their baby whale, but they wouldn't have been happy about being forced to provide for another child they hadn't wanted in the first place. Did you ever wonder why they didn't drop Harry off at the next orphanage? Was there a compulsion on the letter or threats what would happen if they didn't take him in? In any case, the whole way how they got Harry would have caused resentments. It was pathetic that Dumbledore just dropped him on the doorstep to force them to take him in because he couldn't be bothered to talk it out with them. He probably knew how they were - he practically admits it in OotP and HBP anyway - and knew they would never voluntarily take Harry, so he forced them. Which in turn would have made them resent the addition to the family even more than they already did.

Yep, I believe Petunia's hatred of magic started in their childhood already. If she hasn't changed much, then Lily was the more beautiful sister, so some jealousy about appearance would have always been there. Then Snape and his bullying. Honestly, there are so many out there who see the memory in OotP as proof that Snape is an innocent angel and blame the Marauders for everything he did because they bullied him. Of course, they never consider he may have provoked and retaliated, and they ignore that he thought it funny when other Muggleborn were attacked. And the completely ignore that he wasn't exactly nice to Petunia in the memories in DH, either. That was all the Marauder's fault, after all. But I digress. And then it turns out Lily is magical and they probably told everyone that she went to a 'special school for the gifted', which would imply that Petunia wasn't that bright and couldn't go to that school, too. Another reason to feel left out and be jealous. From Petunia's POV, I could imagine her thinking that this greasy little bully and magic took her sister away.

[RandomPasserby]

Jan 18, 2015 0:44:22 GMT -5 physicssquid said:

I'm sure, if Petunia had found out about the existence of the Obliviate spell, then Lily could have explained it in such a way as to make her realise that while it is an unpleasant and, quite possibly, harmful spell if used too much, too often, it can also be helpful in certain circumstances. I get the fact that the idea of magicals being able to play with memories being an unsettling one, but I doubt a non-magical wouldn't have a mental breakdown if they witnessed something truly vile, such as a Death Eater raid, without being Obliviated.

I highly doubt that 'Death Eater raid' is the worst thing that humanity has ever done to itself. Especially since the first wizarding war partially coincided with the troubles in Ireland (which claimed 3500 lives, injured about 50,000 people and involved 20-30 years of bombs going off around the country). Compared to that, Voldemort is fairly small peanuts. Especially given pretty much anyone who was an adult in the 1970's grew up with the Cold War (ie, the threat of nuclear warfare) and may well remember parts of WWII.

Also the reaction to trauma depends on the person. Some people get PTSD, some people don't. We do not know why. The wizarding world are a. not doing it for the welfare of non-magical people they're doing it for their safety and b. aren't exactly going around asking permission or explaining. Who's to say that Obliviation would help at all - since we have no idea whether they actually heal the people they Obliviate or just fuck with their heads and dump them in a hospital. Obliviating people who have just experienced serious trauma seems like a recipe for disaster.

Of course, they could obviously afford it, seeing how much they spent on their baby whale, but they wouldn't have been happy about being forced to provide for another child they hadn't wanted in the first place. Did you ever wonder why they didn't drop Harry off at the next orphanage? Was there a compulsion on the letter or threats what would happen if they didn't take him in? In any case, the whole way how they got Harry would have caused resentments. It was pathetic that Dumbledore just dropped him on the doorstep to force them to take him in because he couldn't be bothered to talk it out with them. He probably knew how they were - he practically admits it in OotP and HBP anyway - and knew they would never voluntarily take Harry, so he forced them. Which in turn would have made them resent the addition to the family even more than they already did.

We don't know that they could afford it in 1981. We only see them 10 years later when Vernon is a director at Grunnings and obviously making fairly good money. I doubt he was that in 1981 and Petunia didn't have a career. For all that Dudley screams for sweets in the prologue of PS, sweets in 1981 were not expensive.

No, I never wondered that because orphanages were pretty much non-existent in 1980's England. Group homes for kids in care, certainly, but I'm not entirely sure how Vernon and Petunia would go about finding one of those since they're not exactly well-signposted. There's the possibility of abandoning him at a local hospital or the like but given his age (15 months rather than newborn) that could get the police involved and that's the last thing either Dursley adult would want if it could trace back to them.

But yeah, there's probably a lot of childhood resentment - between Lily having magic and her not and the fact Lily was at Hogwarts for like 9 months per year and probably writing home about all these amazing things going on at her magical school. And Petunia is stuck in Cokeworth which isn't half as exciting.

[Kitty279]

Jan 18, 2015 16:21:41 GMT -5 RandomPasserby said:

Also the reaction to trauma depends on the person. Some people get PTSD, some people don't. We do not know why. The wizarding world are a. not doing it for the welfare of non-magical people they're doing it for their safety and b. aren't exactly going around asking permission or explaining. Who's to say that Obliviation would help at all - since we have no idea whether they actually heal the people they Obliviate or just fuck with their heads and dump them in a hospital. Obliviating people who have just experienced serious trauma seems like a recipe for disaster.

That, and when you consider the general incompetence in the Ministry ... wouldn't obliviating Muggles be a nice cozy job for some lazy pureblood who could otherwise not spell his way out of a paper bag?

We don't know that they could afford it in 1981. We only see them 10 years later when Vernon is a director at Grunnings and obviously making fairly good money. I doubt he was that in 1981 and Petunia didn't have a career. For all that Dudley screams for sweets in the prologue of PS, sweets in 1981 were not expensive.

No, I never wondered that because orphanages were pretty much non-existent in 1980's England. Group homes for kids in care, certainly, but I'm not entirely sure how Vernon and Petunia would go about finding one of those since they're not exactly well-signposted. There's the possibility of abandoning him at a local hospital or the like but given his age (15 months rather than newborn) that could get the police involved and that's the last thing either Dursley adult would want if it could trace back to them.

But yeah, there's probably a lot of childhood resentment - between Lily having magic and her not and the fact Lily was at Hogwarts for like 9 months per year and probably writing home about all these amazing things going on at her magical school. And Petunia is stuck in Cokeworth which isn't half as exciting.

You have a point, but frankly, if I were a parent with little money, I'd not allow my toddler to throw food against the walls and *laugh* about it, but would stop the little monster and worry about repair costs.

Didn't know that, but then, I am not British and it's not the type of detail you usually know about countries. Here, we at least had something like that - it wouldn't be called orphanage any longer, but it *was* fulfilling that sort of duty anyway.