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Post by Miss Wings on Jun 17, 2012 9:03:31 GMT -5
What do you think about the unforgivables when it comes to Good VS Evil?
Personally it's how you use them.
I could use the Imperio every time someone gets all depressed.
Crucio for those that can't be resuscitated straight away.
Avada can be used on those like my Nanna who are suffering from Cancer. Quick & easy death would be better for us all..
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Silvertongue
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Post by Silvertongue on Jun 17, 2012 9:07:01 GMT -5
I agree and think that they could all have originally come from good intentions. You could stop someone from committing suicide or murder with the Imperio. And your other points are what I thought too. Probably to put dying animals down or something.
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Post by Miss Wings on Jun 17, 2012 9:07:48 GMT -5
What's to say that they didn't start off as good intentions?
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 17, 2012 9:13:11 GMT -5
It would make sense that they were once made for good purposes and then twisted to a point they were considered unforgivable.
Really, spells aren't light or dark per se, it's the intent of the caster. As so many fics point out - you can use Wingardium Leviosa - a first year spell - to levitate someone over a cliff or out of the window high up and then cancel it and let the person fall to their death.
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Silvertongue
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Post by Silvertongue on Jun 17, 2012 9:14:24 GMT -5
Exactly. I would have liked someone to point this out to the world in the books.
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Post by Miss Wings on Jun 17, 2012 9:14:39 GMT -5
Exactly and we all know what VoldieMoldie's like. He'll use anything to cause the most pain..
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 17, 2012 9:17:30 GMT -5
He must have read the Marquis de Sade in his youth.
Hermione should have pointed it out, but I guess she went by the books as her bible, as usual, and when the books say the Wingardium Leviosa is a light spell and the Imperius dark, then that's her gospel, right?
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Silvertongue
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Post by Silvertongue on Jun 17, 2012 9:17:50 GMT -5
He may be the reason why everyone started calling them the Unforgivables anyway.
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Post by Miss Wings on Jun 17, 2012 9:18:57 GMT -5
Or it could have been Grindleward? We don't really know much about his reign of terror.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 17, 2012 9:20:07 GMT -5
O course, that could be. Though then there should be some more torture spells included. But then, he seems to be able to do only three spells overall most of the time  |
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Post by blackroses77 on Jun 17, 2012 12:51:30 GMT -5
I agree the Imperious shouldn't be classed as dark as it is the intention behind the spell that determines if Imperious curse is dark or light. I mean really what's the difference between the Imperious and a love potion. If you drug someone it's not rape and is perfectly acceptable, if you use the Imperious curse to sleep with someone then it is unforgivable...o.O Really!
For the AK I don't see how it could have ever been anything but dark and was invented specifically to murder. I mean come on it's the magical world there has to be some potion that can be used to give a person a quick, painless death and if the potion is not readily available put the person in stasis with a spell until the potion can be administered. There is no reason to invent such an insidious spell.
The same can be said for the crucio as for AK, again it's the magical world I'm sure a spell could have been invented specifically for the purpose of restarting a heart, no need to invent a torture spell to do it.
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Post by isk2837 on Jun 17, 2012 13:04:56 GMT -5
I have a question - I've heard the claim more than once that Crucio started off as a spell to restart the heart, but is that really canon, or is it fanon? Because I don't remember it ever saying anywhere in the books that that was the original purpose of the spell.
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Post by Miss Wings on Jun 17, 2012 13:05:56 GMT -5
fanon.. it never mentions in the books where the spells actually come from
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Silvertongue
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Post by Silvertongue on Jun 17, 2012 17:38:59 GMT -5
Yeah I've seen a few fics that say it but it's definitely a fanon thing.
A killing potion could be very difficult to make, though, if you want it to be painless and instantaneous.
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sherza
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Post by sherza on Jun 17, 2012 19:17:11 GMT -5
The only one truly questionable in intent and with possible good uses is Imperio, which as has been noted, could be used to quick-control someone suicidal and keep them from doing something stupid.
The other two? Not so much. Why?
You have to FEEL them to get them to work. Which means you
1) HATE someone with every fiber of your being and want to kill them in cold blood
2) HATE someone and want to watch them writhe in agony.
So yea ... no.
Now, it's entirely possible that the Unforgivable triad are corruptions of other spells, particularly Avada ... something like that without the emotional requirement could have been used to painlessly slaughter animals, or as has been noted, euthanize someone who's got a terminal problem.
Crucio ... well hell. I dunno. A corruption of a spell meant to stimulate atrophied nerves, maybe?
As they now exist, however, no ... those two spells are pure Dark, with Imperio dancing the line like crazy.
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Post by isk2837 on Jun 17, 2012 19:37:09 GMT -5
Where does it say that you need to hate someone to use Avada Kedavra? The only place in the books I can remember where anyone talks about how AK works is in GoF - the fake Moody says that AK "needs a powerful bit of magic behind it", but he never mentions hate as a requirement to use it.
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sherza
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Post by sherza on Jun 17, 2012 20:03:46 GMT -5
It's made fairly clear that to use the Unforgivables, you have to have the emotion behind them.
Bella mentions it in OotP, as does Voldie, and while, yes, they're rather questionable sources, I've never seen anything that counters their claims.
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Post by G. Novella on Jun 17, 2012 21:23:36 GMT -5
Was I the only one who had a mild panic attack when Harry used the crucio in book 7 successfully? I still don't really know How I feel about that, sometimes I'm like hell yeah, othertimes....
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 18, 2012 0:46:22 GMT -5
Can't say I liked it, to be honest, but seeing who he used it against, I could live with it. Besides, it was on the curriculum at that time ... But I'd still prefer he'd not do it ever again.
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Post by kumainpink on Jun 18, 2012 2:17:38 GMT -5
I don't like that Harry used it, but he's only human and I am surprised that was all he did. The fact he did it for Minerva really says a lot though.
As we know, Harry doesn't have a lot of adult role models in his life. Let alone female ones. It's my personal head canon that he views Minerva as a grandmother of sorts, though he'd never speak that out loud.
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Post by overcastcrystal17 on Jun 18, 2012 2:55:10 GMT -5
I agree the Imperious shouldn't be classed as dark as it is the intention behind the spell that determines if Imperious curse is dark or light. I mean really what's the difference between the Imperious and a love potion. If you drug someone it's not rape and is perfectly acceptable, if you use the Imperious curse to sleep with someone then it is unforgivable...o.O Really! For the AK I don't see how it could have ever been anything but dark and was invented specifically to murder. I mean come on it's the magical world there has to be some potion that can be used to give a person a quick, painless death and if the potion is not readily available put the person in stasis with a spell until the potion can be administered. There is no reason to invent such an insidious spell. The same can be said for the crucio as for AK, again it's the magical world I'm sure a spell could have been invented specifically for the purpose of restarting a heart, no need to invent a torture spell to do it. I agree that the intent behind the spell is what determines if it is good or evil. I have a problem with your rape reference however. Rape is rape, even if the person was drugged or imperiused, and rape is evil. Voldemort is evil. That's the thing, evil people will use any means to do or get what they want. "There is no good and evil, there is only power and those too weak to seek it," Voldemort quote from the movie, but it makes the point. No matter what the original intention behind the spell, it can always be manipulated but people. Hell, back to the real world for a second, a knife was originally intended for food, but murders use them all the time. Maybe wizards in the middle ages were tired of chasing after the chickens. Joke. |
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Post by overcastcrystal17 on Jun 18, 2012 3:08:49 GMT -5
I don't like that Harry used it, but he's only human and I am surprised that was all he did. The fact he did it for Minerva really says a lot though. As we know, Harry doesn't have a lot of adult role models in his life. Let alone female ones. It's my personal head canon that he views Minerva as a grandmother of sorts, though he'd never speak that out loud. Agreed, and since Harry is the kind of person that will do anything for the ones he loved, it's not so surprising to me that he was able to use it for her. Some will go to extraordinary lengths to protect loved ones; his parents died to save him, his godfather broke out of prison to protect him, and he is a lot like them. I think that, personally, if I lived in the Harry Potter world, and the options were watch your friend in trouble, possibly getting hurt or killed, by a damn death eater, kick his ass, whatever means necessary. Oh, and I would like to do it to Voldy, just to see the look on his face. ...Sorry... |
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Post by kumainpink on Jun 18, 2012 3:12:38 GMT -5
Don't be.  I feel the same way, Crystal! |
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Post by overcastcrystal17 on Jun 18, 2012 3:23:27 GMT -5
Oh good... because I thought it was a bit wrong to want to strangle him with my bear hands! Joke. But I cannot tell you how many times I have wanted to punch him, or Crucio him, give him a taste of his won medicine, Mwa Ha! Beside the point though, anything can be twisted by evil means, and there is dark and light in objects and spells, just like in people. The world is filled with all shades of grey, it's up to the user to determine if it is black or white.
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Silvertongue
Headmaster/Headmistress
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Post by Silvertongue on Jun 18, 2012 4:46:36 GMT -5
I often think I'd like to Crucio Umbitch, but I don't think I have enough hate and ager in me to do it. I can barely stand shouting, let alone torturing someone.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 18, 2012 4:59:28 GMT -5
Oh good... because I thought it was a bit wrong to want to strangle him with my bear hands! Joke. But I cannot tell you how many times I have wanted to punch him, or Crucio him, give him a taste of his won medicine, Mwa Ha! Beside the point though, anything can be twisted by evil means, and there is dark and light in objects and spells, just like in people. The world is filled with all shades of grey, it's up to the user to determine if it is black or white. Um ... you have seen all these "Let's kill Umbitch/Voldy/Lucius" ideas, right? So why should you feel bad for feeling like you do? We all were rather eager to think up ways to torture and/or kill them, after all. |
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Post by kumainpink on Jun 18, 2012 5:27:12 GMT -5
*evil grin* >=D Exactly!
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Post by Miss Wings on Jun 18, 2012 9:04:38 GMT -5
The only one truly questionable in intent and with possible good uses is Imperio, which as has been noted, could be used to quick-control someone suicidal and keep them from doing something stupid. The other two? Not so much. Why? You have to FEEL them to get them to work. Which means you 1) HATE someone with every fiber of your being and want to kill them in cold blood 2) HATE someone and want to watch them writhe in agony. So yea ... no. Now, it's entirely possible that the Unforgivable triad are corruptions of other spells, particularly Avada ... something like that without the emotional requirement could have been used to painlessly slaughter animals, or as has been noted, euthanize someone who's got a terminal problem. Crucio ... well hell. I dunno. A corruption of a spell meant to stimulate atrophied nerves, maybe? As they now exist, however, no ... those two spells are pure Dark, with Imperio dancing the line like crazy. not necessarily, you could be so full of anger that a loved one is being taken away.anger can be just as bad as hate |
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Post by Ithiarel on Jun 18, 2012 9:11:55 GMT -5
not necessarily, you could be so full of anger that a loved one is being taken away.anger can be just as bad as hate No, I think sherza's right. Remember Harry tring to Crucio Bella after she killed Sirius? That would have fully qualified as anger over a loved one being taken away - and yet Harry only managed to make her cringe a bit. For Crucio you need to want to inflect pain. Nothing else. To me it seems like a very basic chanelling of magical energy - much like the instinctive magic that children do. You want something bad enough and your magic makes it come true. (How else would have little Tom Riddle managed to cast that precise spell even before he got a wand?) |
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Post by overcastcrystal17 on Jun 18, 2012 18:19:34 GMT -5
I don't think I would have enough hate and anger to do it either, just for a second though, maybe. But mad minds... and I have that in spades.
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I feel the same way, Crystal!
