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Post by jessieanneh2 on Jun 27, 2012 14:17:14 GMT -5
I will start with with what I think his good points and bad points are. Good: 1. has a sense of humor, not always good for the people he pulled pranks on. 2. He did love Harry and wanted what was best for him. Which is why he handed him over to Hagrid. 3. He was loyal to his friends and those of his family who deserved it. 4. Had he been allowed to get some Counseling after twelve years in Azkaban he would have been a good guardian for Harry. 5. He didn't Coddle Harry, treated him like James yes, but not like he was a child who couldn't take care of himself. 6. He broke out of Azkaban unaided as the first and only one person to protect Harry, and came back from the - much safer and for him healthier - south to be close to Harry, to help him and once again protect him when he was forced into the tournament Read more: readingthehpbooks.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1159#ixzz1z1ZH7N00 Faults: 1. he was Immature most of the time. 2. He enjoyed bating Severus too much, though Severus deserved it most of the time. 3. He did drink alot during that last year of his life, though if I had to cope with the memories of my best friend and her husbands death, while having to stay cooped up in the home where I had bad childhood memories I would drink heavily too. 4. He kept mistaking Harry for James, though I attribute that more with trying to cope with the bad memories the dementors dredged up, and again being locked up in a house I hated with only a red headed shrew, Remus Lupin, a cousin he barely knew, a demented House-elf, and the portrait of his Banshee of a mother as his main company. I would dwell on the past as well. 5. He was pretty reckless but I would imagine that I would rather die fighting than be cooped up all the time |
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 27, 2012 14:33:27 GMT -5
Disagree with the first part of fault #4, that seems to be more a movie mistake - and the opinion of Molly and Hermione.
For the good, you can add:
6. He broke out of Azkaban unaided as the first and only one person to protect Harry, and came back from the - much safer and for him healthier - south to be close to Harry, to help him and once again protect him when he was forced into the tournament
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Post by jessieanneh2 on Jun 27, 2012 14:39:43 GMT -5
Disagree with the first part of fault #4, that seems to be more a movie mistake - and the opinion of Molly and Hermione. For the good, you can add: 6. He broke out of Azkaban unaided as the first and only one person to protect Harry, and came back from the - much safer and for him healthier - south to be close to Harry, to help him and once again protect him when he was forced into the tournament added it  |
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jun 27, 2012 15:53:37 GMT -5
I adore Sirius. So very much.
If it hadn't taken MASSIVE balls to defy his family, he'dve been a shoo-in for Hufflepuff. He was so undyingly loyal, first to James, then Harry. And he was the ONLY adult that treated Harry decently.
I mean, shit. He actually acknowledged that Harry was not a child, thanks to what he'd lived through. And he also acknowledged that even if Harry *had* still been a child, Harry NEEDED to know what the *hell* was going on ... because Voldemort was after Harry's ass, and that kind of made such information very much Harry's business, because knowing what the hell was going on might just keep Harry and those around him *alive*.
Yes, Sirius had problems, and sometimes said or did things that weren't nice/appropriate/what have you ... but I quadruple dog dare anyone to be anywhere near sane after twelve years in Azkaban, and not having any kind of treatment afterward. That Sirius was functioning as well as he was is a testament to his iron will and determination.
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Post by kumainpink on Jun 27, 2012 16:07:46 GMT -5
With all the points mentioned above, I would just like to sum up my thoughts with this statement:
Sirius is the perfect example of a flawed, yet lovable character.
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Post by jessieanneh2 on Jun 27, 2012 16:41:07 GMT -5
I adore Sirius. So very much. If it hadn't taken MASSIVE balls to defy his family, he'dve been a shoo-in for Hufflepuff. He was so undyingly loyal, first to James, then Harry. And he was the ONLY adult that treated Harry decently. I mean, shit. He actually acknowledged that Harry was not a child, thanks to what he'd lived through. And he also acknowledged that even if Harry *had* still been a child, Harry NEEDED to know what the *hell* was going on ... because Voldemort was after Harry's ass, and that kind of made such information very much Harry's business, because knowing what the hell was going on might just keep Harry and those around him *alive*. Yes, Sirius had problems, and sometimes said or did things that weren't nice/appropriate/what have you ... but I quadruple dog dare anyone to be anywhere near sane after twelve years in Azkaban, and not having any kind of treatment afterward. That Sirius was functioning as well as he was is a testament to his iron will and determination. And then after everything he went through she just HAD to kill him off! although I was always of the belief that he didn't die mainly because their wasn't a body |
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 28, 2012 0:00:55 GMT -5
Sherza, I probably don't need to say it, you know I agree with you, right? I often thought I'd like to know what state *Molly* would be in after going through the hell of Azkaban for so long - and how she would feel about someone being to derogatory to her afterwards as she was at times with Sirius. And then after everything he went through she just HAD to kill him off! although I was always of the belief that he didn't die mainly because their wasn't a body Oh yes, his death was a major shock, after he had been built up in PoA and GoF nicely and I thought it was finally an adult who would work *with* Harry, not just use him. When I started reading the sixth book, I kept hoping that Sirius came back, that they had been wrong and the veil wasn't the end. Sadly, it didn't happen  |
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sherza
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Post by sherza on Jun 28, 2012 0:28:21 GMT -5
Sherza, I probably don't need to say it, you know I agree with you, right? I often thought I'd like to know what state *Molly* would be in after going through the hell of Azkaban for so long - and how she would feel about someone being to derogatory to her afterwards as she was at times with Sirius. And then after everything he went through she just HAD to kill him off! although I was always of the belief that he didn't die mainly because their wasn't a body Oh yes, his death was a major shock, after he had been built up in PoA and GoF nicely and I thought it was finally an adult who would work *with* Harry, not just use him. When I started reading the sixth book, I kept hoping that Sirius came back, that they had been wrong and the veil wasn't the end. Sadly, it didn't happen End of Fifth Book never happened. Period. Sirius is still alive, goddamnitall. I refuse to believe otherwise. Book 6 and 7 never happened, because Sirius was THERE and would have been helping Harry and kicking Dumbledore's ASS six ways from Sunday. Seriously ... the contemplation of what Sirius would have done to Dumbledore if he'd ever found out about the whole 'Harry has to die' thing amuses the holy hell out of me. Sirius would have CRUCIFIED the bastard. |
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Post by readingwizard4 on Jun 28, 2012 0:38:29 GMT -5
That paragraph about you saying that Sirius was still alive reminds me of a picture on Facebook of Fred talking to Death and saying how he was still alive and what not since he refused to accept what he read in the book or something like that. I have to find that picture now.
Unfortunately if Sirius hadn't died Harry wouldn't have understood the consequences as well if someone else had died. If Arthur had died for example Ron would have understood the price but not Harry. Sirius would have been such a big help to Harry over the last two books. I'm sure Lily, James and Sirius gave him nothing but grief in the afterlife after Dumbledore died
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jun 28, 2012 0:45:53 GMT -5
Unfortunately if Sirius hadn't died Harry wouldn't have understood the consequences as well if someone else had died. Whut? Just ... whut? I *think* Harry got the message when his *parents* got killed. Which got reinforced when he had to rescue Hermione, which got reinforced when he had to get through the traps, which got reinforced when he had to kill Quirrell, which got reinforced when he had to face off against a BASILISK, which got reinforced when he had to face off against DEMENTORS, which got reinforced when he had to survive the TriWiz, which got reinforced when he watched Cedric die, which got reinforced when he had to watch Arthur nearly die. Really, I *think* Harry got the point a LONG time ago. It was the adults around him who didn't know their asses from their elbows, particularly Dumbledore. If Dumbledore had got his head out of his ass and told Harry the truth ... ALL OF IT ... at the end of fourth year, after Voldemort had got a body back, 99 % of the shit that went down in books 5, 6, and 7 could have been avoided or mitigated. But no, Dumbledore had to be completely stupid. |
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 28, 2012 0:50:15 GMT -5
See, Sherza, and that was why I wanted to rewrite the books from the DoM onwards. In my story, it's not Sirius who fell into the Veil ;D Still working on how they find out about the part where they find out how Dumbledore planned to sacrifice Harry, but I can promise you, Sirius won't be happy. Not at all.
Readingwizard, I really don't believe that. Harry knew too well what was at stake, he had to see Cedric die already. And he'd have wanted to protect Sirius, too, so he would have done the same, at least that is what I think. He would have been the only real family he had if he had lived with Sirius. Plus, as I said elsewhere, with the Black library, they could have found out so much more ...
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jun 28, 2012 0:54:54 GMT -5
See, Sherza, and that was why I wanted to rewrite the books from the DoM onwards. In my story, it's not Sirius who fell into the Veil ;D Still working on how they find out about the part where they find out how Dumbledore planned to sacrifice Harry, but I can promise you, Sirius won't be happy. Not at all. Readingwizard, I really don't believe that. Harry knew too well what was at stake, he had to see Cedric die already. And he'd have wanted to protect Sirius, too, so he would have done the same, at least that is what I think. He would have been the only real family he had if he had lived with Sirius. Plus, as I said elsewhere, with the Black library, they could have found out so much more ... I generally rewrite (if I'm starting somewhere other than at the beginning) at the end of Fourth Year, as that gives me an embodied Voldie to fight against ... and is right about where my BS meter taps out in canon. Linkages to your stories plz? |
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 28, 2012 1:02:06 GMT -5
Sorry, no links yet, as not posted. Still working on it and wanting to get a bit further before I post anything, or the gaps between updates would stretch over months. Though maybe I'd give you a sneak peak at the beginning, at least.
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jun 28, 2012 1:03:38 GMT -5
Hey, I can definitely beta, and we seem to have similar tastes, in most respects (and who knows, I might be able to help with ideas.) I'll PM you my email address.
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Post by readingwizard4 on Jun 28, 2012 1:05:58 GMT -5
I could have said that better. It sounded better in my head. Was Harry emotionally ready in 5th year to take Voldemort down for good? Before then he would do whatever he could to stay alive but be emotionally ready to take him down for good? I don't think so. Well the Dementors made Harry relive his parents deaths, 2 people he didn't know. Cedric he knew but not as well as Sirius. Would Harry have had the guts and determination to finish the war if he didn't lose Sirius who he saw as someone like a father/brother to him? Yes I know I'm using Dumbledore's words but my point stands at least it does to me. Harry was had his most emotional year in his life and he needed something to clear his head and focus himself. We all know Harry was messed up that year due to the connection. Would Arthur Weasley's or Remus' death effected Harry as much as Sirius' death did? Would he have shown as much rage in Dumbledore's office if someone else had died? If they were the one's in Harry's vision then perhaps yes. If it was Arthur I'm sure Ron would have changed for the better but JK Rowling wanted him to stay the same. I'd also wager that that's what happened to James before 7th year. Losing a parent makes you grow up and gain a new perspective on life.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 28, 2012 1:06:33 GMT -5
Thanks! Will take care of that when I am back from work, ok?
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jun 28, 2012 1:34:43 GMT -5
I could have said that better. It sounded better in my head. Was Harry emotionally ready in 5th year to take Voldemort down for good? Before then he would do whatever he could to stay alive but be emotionally ready to take him down for good? I don't think so. Well the Dementors made Harry relive his parents deaths, 2 people he didn't know. Cedric he knew but not as well as Sirius. Would Harry have had the guts and determination to finish the war if he didn't lose Sirius who he saw as someone like a father/brother to him? Yes I know I'm using Dumbledore's words but my point stands at least it does to me. Harry was had his most emotional year in his life and he needed something to clear his head and focus himself. We all know Harry was messed up that year due to the connection. Would Arthur Weasley's or Remus' death effected Harry as much as Sirius' death did? Would he have shown as much rage in Dumbledore's office if someone else had died? If they were the one's in Harry's vision then perhaps yes. If it was Arthur I'm sure Ron would have changed for the better but JK Rowling wanted him to stay the same. I'd also wager that that's what happened to James before 7th year. Losing a parent makes you grow up and gain a new perspective on life. Yes, actually ... yes, Harry was ready, emotionally, to kick Voldemort's ass. He makes it quite clear when he's first brought to Grimmauld Place and finds out about the Order. What's his reaction? 'Good. I want to join.' Harry has been fighting Voldemort since he was 11. He KNOWS the stakes, damnit. He knows it's kill or be killed ... Voldemort's made that pretty damn clear by the end of fourth year. As for Harry having an emotional year? Who's fault is that? DUMBLEDORE'S. If Dumbledore had gotten off his ass, and said 'Look, Harry, I've got a bad feeling about that scar of yours, and I think maybe Voldie can see through your eyes as well as vice versa' ... instead of ignoring Harry and making Harry feel like he'd done something *wrong*, instead of hiding the existence of the prophecy and denying Harry ANY information of any kind, so that Harry felt he had to go to extreme measures just to know WTF was going on ... Harry wouldn't have been anywhere NEAR as 'emotional'. Grieving for Cedric still? Yes. Pissed off, reckless, and acting rashly? Not so much. EVERYTHING Harry did fifth year can be traced back to the fact that Dumbledore (and Molly) were treating him like he was 5, not the more-mature-than-his-years 15-year-old he actually was. There was no need for another death to 'motivate' Harry. He was already motivated. He already HAD a grown-up perspective on life, and anyone that says otherwise is ... completely blind. |
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 28, 2012 2:19:32 GMT -5
*nods in agreement*
It's really stupid - he has fought/encountered Voldemort how many times? Even if you don't count Halloween 1981, there was the first Quidditch match, the detention in the Forest, Quirrellmort, diary-Riddle, the graveyard ... and still, Molly thinks he's a baby that can't deal with anything? While she herself can't even hear the word Voldemort without flinching?
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jun 28, 2012 22:54:49 GMT -5
oh, tell me about it. That whole thing pisses me off greatly.
I mean, holy hell. Did everyone have amnesia fifth year, and forget exactly what Harry has done, has been through? 'He's just a child' my ASS. Harry was as far from being a child as it's possible to get.
Double -eff that to Dumbledore's so-called desire for Harry to have a normal childhood. What the ever freaking? First off, above and beyond anything else, Dumbledore KNEW the Dursleys treated him like shit. He admitted as much! How in the name of HELL is being forced to live through ten years solid of abuse, plus summers from age 11 on, a 'normal' childhood?
Secondly ... Voldemort *clearly* was not going to wait for Harry to be an adult, fully trained wizard. Voldemort was after Harry's ass from the second he stepped back into the wizarding world, and didn't stop. Yet Dumbledore thought it was a good idea to leave Harry ignorant and defenseless. Jesus H. Christ.
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Post by Kaiserin on Jun 28, 2012 23:39:07 GMT -5
JKR killed him off just so Harry would be a good little marrionette for Dumbledore. It was really Sirius' death that pushed Harry to allow himself to be killed. If he had Sirius, Harry wouldn't have idolized Dumbledore as much and would have had a reason for living.
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Silvertongue
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Post by Silvertongue on Jun 29, 2012 7:40:08 GMT -5
for this point, I think the only people who know EXACTLY what Harry has been through are Harry and Dumbledore (I personally don't think Harry would have told Hermione and Ron about being tortured in the graveyard when he didn't tell them about being bitten by the basilisk). I reackong Ron and Hermione know nearly as much as them and then Snape would probably have been told an awful lot about it by Dumbledore but probably downplays the difficulties in his mind. I doubt Molly and Sirius even knew half of what Harry had been though up to that point. Not that that makes how they treat him okay. I still think Molly was an idiot on that point.
For everything else you said, I agree.
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Post by G. Novella on Jun 29, 2012 14:54:37 GMT -5
Um, so, I guess the best way for me to start this is to say I do love Sirius. Don't get me wrong. BUT I do not think that his survival in OOTP would have led to him immediately being able to help Harry kick-ass, for multiple reasons. a) He's spent the last year as an alcoholic I think Sirius's alcoholism brought him down in my eyes. I've seen what alcoholics can do just by drinking. They're not healthy people. They are not good for children. They don't have to be abusive to make life hell for the people around them. Sirius's alcoholism was similar to an uncle of mine. He went through really happy periods where he'd drink to celebrate (like Sirius did in OOTP during Arthur's recovery and Christmas) and really low periods (Sirius on his own). In Sirius's situation, the low periods would end up getting so bad that even the high periods wouldn't be enjoyable for anyone. Harry especially. Harry shouldn't have had to deal with helping Sirius recover from that while training to fight a war, and while Sirius may impart some good tips, I don't think Harry would be able to handle Sirius on his own and absorb the good tips. And I say on his own because then he'd be alone with Sirius because they'd be living together. Remus would go underground with the wolves. Sure the Weasleys would be a floo away, but what happens in someone's house is always a private thing, and no matter how close you are to someone, you'll never be able to know exactly what's going on in the house. b) Grief The entire stint in Azkaban has messed psychologically with Sirius. He's not emotionally stable yet. He's never had proper time to really get over what happened that Halloween night. Harry's never had time to get over the graveyard. The two aren't the type to hug each other and open their fears to one another. Harry tries to protect Sirius and Sirius tries to protect Harry. I can see them hiding their worst fears from each other instead of confiding to one another. Remus would be underground, and I doubt Sirius had anyone to really tell his feelings to. While Harry had Ron and Hermione, Sirius was totally alone, especially without Remus. He'd get more miserable and drink more. Harry would put his grief aside to help with Sirius and thus avoid his own problems. c) Pressure (Not the best title but roll with it, I can't think of a better word) While Hermione wasn't entirely right in OOTP, she wasn't entirely wrong either in that Sirius was trying to recreate his glory days through Harry and reliving life through Harry. It wasn't so much trying to recreate his life as it was clinging to James. Sirius loved Harry as Harry, it's undeniable. But thirteen years later, he sees Harry all grown up, identical to his best friend, and his mind and memories are messed up by Azkaban. He needed proper time to sort his memories out on his own, get mentally stable after everything. Dealing with Harry, who looks exactly like James did when Sirius was at the best point in his life, it's not a good mix. He'd keep telling Harry stories about James, pointing out similarities between James and Harry, and generally searching for that link to James. Inadvertently Harry would begin trying to act more like James, do more pranks, be more reckless, brash, confident, etc. Sirius wouldn't be trying to change Harry, but Harry's most impressionable in front of Sirius. It's not the argument that Sirius would raise a mini-James, it's the argument of Harry trying to please Sirius by being James. Harry's own desperation for affection from the last adult he can really trust would make him more impressionable. d) "I'm fine" Both Sirius and Harry have that line as their mantra. I've mentioned it before, but it really deserves it's own point. The two would try and push off their own struggles as being alright, put on a brave face, and generally discourage the other's attempts to care for them whilst trying to care for each other. They'd work through it eventually, but for that they'd need time. They wouldn't get their time to help each other in what, three months? The two summer month holidays and Christmas break. Not to mention the whole war thing is raging and letters and mirror communication can only go so far. Those are really my main points for why Sirius wasn't ready for the responsibility of parenting after OOTP. By the time Sirius would have worked through his problems, been stable, we can safely assume Harry's of age at seventeen since Sirius would work through everything in sixth year, and then Harry'd run off Horcrux hunting to protect Sirius and wouldn't take the mirror as a way of deterring Sirius. Sirius would chase after Harry and things would be messy. IMO that's why it's easier to kill Sirius off  I don't want Sirius dead, don't get me wrong. I think they're plenty of routes to go that would avoid that, like you could have Sirius step back and instead try and do things on the side to help Harry out after sixth year. But I still don't think Sirius was going to be Harry's savior in sixth year. Nor he could he really take Dumbledore out (He's not stable, Dumbledore whatever said and done is a pretty damn powerful wizard who's got the entire wizarding community regarding him as a hero...I think you can figure out why that wouldn't work) |
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sherza
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Post by sherza on Jun 29, 2012 17:39:30 GMT -5
for this point, I think the only people who know EXACTLY what Harry has been through are Harry and Dumbledore (I personally don't think Harry would have told Hermione and Ron about being tortured in the graveyard when he didn't tell them about being bitten by the basilisk). I reackong Ron and Hermione know nearly as much as them and then Snape would probably have been told an awful lot about it by Dumbledore but probably downplays the difficulties in his mind. I doubt Molly and Sirius even knew half of what Harry had been though up to that point. Not that that makes how they treat him okay. I still think Molly was an idiot on that point. For everything else you said, I agree. Molly knows most of it. She'd know about the Troll, because do you *really* think Ron would be able to keep his mouth shut about that? Really? She would also know a good chunk about the traps that year as well, because again, Ron was present. She'd also know about the adventure with acromantulas, and the basilisk mess. She'd also know at least the basics of what happened fourth year and at the third task ... Dumbledore at the very least told the Order 'Voldemort's back, and Harry saw him resurrect'. So Molly has, while not total knowledge of everything, more than enough information to realize that Harry has been through the wringer multiple times and survived, and is by no means a child anymore thanks to those experiences. I don't much care about the bulk of the Order ... they mostly didn't interact with Harry. But Dumbledore and Molly needed to get their heads out of their asses in regards to the way they were treating Harry because they damn well knew better! |
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Post by physicssquid on Jun 29, 2012 17:43:19 GMT -5
I don't much care about the bulk of the Order ... they mostly didn't interact with Harry. But Dumbledore and Molly needed to get their heads out of their asses in regards to the way they were treating Harry because they damn well knew better! Would Dumbledore really know better, or was he so enamoured with his own fame that he thought he knew best? |
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sherza
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Post by sherza on Jun 29, 2012 17:44:22 GMT -5
gnovella, you do have some points, I will admit, but I will say this.
By the end of OotP, Sirius was beginning to get himself together a bit. Yeah, he was fucked up ... he has a right to be! But if he had survived OotP, and *especially* if he had been cleared of wrongdoing in the aftermath of him fighting with the Order against the Death Eaters, and gotten the help he so desperately needed, He'dve been a hell of a force to reckon with on Harry's behalf. Even hamstrung by being a wanted criminal, he had done everything he could up to that point to help Harry and be there for him.
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Post by physicssquid on Jun 29, 2012 17:46:39 GMT -5
gnovella, you do have some points, I will admit, but I will say this. By the end of OotP, Sirius was beginning to get himself together a bit. Yeah, he was fucked up ... he has a right to be! But if he had survived OotP, and *especially* if he had been cleared of wrongdoing in the aftermath of him fighting with the Order against the Death Eaters, and gotten the help he so desperately needed, He'dve been a hell of a force to reckon with on Harry's behalf. Even hamstrung by being a wanted criminal, he had done everything he could up to that point to help Harry and be there for him. I agree completely, plus he would have been able to show Harry that he could train properly and still have fun while doing it. I always thought of Sirius as the cool older-brother type with a bit of laid-back father in there as well. |
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Post by G. Novella on Jun 29, 2012 18:04:55 GMT -5
But by the time he was a force, the war would be over and Dumbledore dead. Or at least Dumbledore dead and the war going haywire.
On the note of Molly knowing everything, I don't think that's true. She'd have a general idea of the traps, but not just how dangerous they are or the injuries sustained. As well, I doubt Ron said anything about the acromantula mess because of a) forgetting in regards to Ginny, and b) he wouldn't want to freak her out/get her worried and yelling. She has no idea about third year at all, and again just the basic Skeeter version of fourth.
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Post by G. Novella on Jun 29, 2012 18:05:46 GMT -5
And harry running after horcruxes after avoiding telling Sirius anything in general.
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fino
Squib
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Post by fino on Jun 29, 2012 22:21:07 GMT -5
gnovella does have a point, but I just think it won't take Sirius for a whole year to recover. IMO a couple of months should be enough for Sirius since I remember in GOF when Sirius had to eat rats to survive he was still quite subtle and was able to think logically. And he did tell Harry "But you’re not to go leaving Hogwarts without permission", which just proved he took his role as Harry's godfather seriously and as long as he could gain some freedom to adjust himself, he could do just fine.
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Post by G. Novella on Jun 29, 2012 22:24:56 GMT -5
I think it would take longer since he's spent the last year suffering as an alcoholic, and immediately after the war would be going on as well as he'd be under the public eye.
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