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Post by viralic1 on Jul 2, 2012 3:19:47 GMT -5
Wohoo! haha.
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jul 2, 2012 3:27:59 GMT -5
Exactly. Heck, wands themselves are a plot hole. Dobby snaps his fingers and gets Harry a warning for using magic outside of school, yet wands are supposedly traced. Petunia rants about Lily turning teacups into rats or whatever, which is illegal. JK seems to add unnecessary details that create plot holes. The entire thing with Dobby was unnecessary. To be completely fair, Petunia's complaint could have been an accidental magic episode. There's certainly been odder occurrences (turning a teddy bear into a spider, anyone?) And for the Dobby instance ... Dobby could have imitated Harry's wand-signature somehow. (yeah, ok, that was kinda lame) |
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Post by viralic1 on Jul 2, 2012 3:31:16 GMT -5
If it was as simple as a House Elf just snapping his fingers and imitating a wand signature, half of the student population would have been expelled because Lucy told Dobby to do that.
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jul 2, 2012 3:40:59 GMT -5
Lucy wouldn't have stooped to that.
For one, it's petty and childish. For two, it depends on a house elf. Lucius ... yeah. Not happening.
I grant it's rather stupid, though.
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Post by viralic1 on Jul 2, 2012 3:45:04 GMT -5
Really? He wouldn't stoop to that. Everything about Lucy is petty and childish. He tried to get an innocent creature killed, just because it attacked his child in a non-threatening manner after being provoked. He gave Ginny Weasley the horcrux to get a muggle-born protection act dismantled. The man is the epitome of childishness.
And I can see him doing it for a bit of a laugh. It's like screwing around with friends. If it works, awesome. If it doesn't work, oh well, no big loss.
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 2, 2012 6:14:18 GMT -5
The Trace works not by tracing the wand but by tracing the wizard and looking for any magic that happens around them. And as Harry is the only wizard that lives in Privet Drive all the magic that happens there is automatically attributed to him.
Which is why Dobby's hover charm seemed to be his fault. And I once read an exelent explanation for Hagrid's Wand still functioning. Dumbledore repaired it with his Elder Wand. Which is something that Dumbledore would do I think.
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Post by lucyolsen on Jul 2, 2012 6:15:04 GMT -5
There is no such thing as a wand signature. The trace was on Harry himself. Dobby imitated a wizard signature, and not even a specific one, which is more plausible to me than a specific wand.
The trace is activated any time that magic is done around underage wizards. If there are adult wizards living in the area, the ministry ignores the "offenses," because there is no way to tell who has actually done the magic. Muggleborns, and Harry, however, have no such luck, and so they are punished.
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 2, 2012 6:25:48 GMT -5
And another thing. Hermione did try out some spells too and wasn't punished. Therefore I think that the Trace is only activated after the kids go to Hogwarts for the first time.
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Post by lucyolsen on Jul 2, 2012 6:32:28 GMT -5
Or it could have been put on them as a baby, and anything done before Hogwarts is assumed to be accidental.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 2, 2012 6:45:23 GMT -5
If the trace is on the wizard, not on the wand, then when is it done? We don't learn about it being put on Harry, right? Which would mean it was done when he was a baby. But what about Muggleborn?
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Post by Ithiarel on Jul 2, 2012 6:55:09 GMT -5
Muggleborn, too, are registered at Hogwarts in some way. I imagine it is done at the same time.
Namely, whenever they first show a sign of magic.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 2, 2012 6:56:47 GMT -5
But how do you do that? Goes some Ministry official there and then obliviates everyone again of the knowledge, as Muggleborn obviously only find out when their Hogwarts letter comes? I find it hard to think the trace puts itself on any magical baby without someone doing it.
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Post by Ithiarel on Jul 2, 2012 7:13:15 GMT -5
Well, for one, we know that muggleborn know that something is different about them and that strange things happen around them. So, it's unlikely that the ministry goes around obliviating people. (Except maybe in cases were something becomes too obvious or public.)
Secondly, I imagine that somewhere in the Ministry there is a list that updates itself with the names of magical children. I can see a lot of the process being 'automated' and just occasionally checked on by a real person. I don't know how exactly it works, but Hogwarts has to get it's list with names and (ridiculously precise) addresses from somewhere. *shrugs*
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 2, 2012 7:33:21 GMT -5
And because I can't see anybody going around to muggle families the most logical explanation would be that the trace is put on every first year in hogwarts (possibly before the start of the feast)
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Post by Ithiarel on Jul 2, 2012 7:35:38 GMT -5
*nods*
Or maybe it's put on their letters of acceptance, and activates when the student sends their answering letter back...
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 2, 2012 7:37:58 GMT -5
Yes but Hermione's attempts at magic would have been registered then.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 2, 2012 9:53:21 GMT -5
Then what happens when someone else is writing and sending the acceptance letter?  |
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 2, 2012 10:45:17 GMT -5
Oh even then the child would have read the letter. But I still think it is too early for the Trace to be put on the children.
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 2, 2012 10:59:59 GMT -5
I thought that the Trace was put on the children when they first arrived at Hogwarts, and that was why every group of first years went on the boats, while the rest went via the carriages.
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 2, 2012 11:00:48 GMT -5
I think so too. It would be a good reason to seperate them.
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Silvertongue
Headmaster/Headmistress
I've got Slytherin Pride
Posts: 1,595
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Post by Silvertongue on Jul 2, 2012 17:21:57 GMT -5
I thought the separate ways was just to give the first years the most awe-inspiring view of the castle. It would be a bit of a handful to put all the students in the boats and they'd be over the awe factor of the castle and the first years wouldn't see the outside of the school properly if they went in the carriages until they had a break or Herbology class.
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 2, 2012 17:27:04 GMT -5
Well that is the interpretation the movie gives us. But in the books they see the castle before they reach the boats.
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Silvertongue
Headmaster/Headmistress
I've got Slytherin Pride
Posts: 1,595
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Post by Silvertongue on Jul 2, 2012 17:28:12 GMT -5
*flicks through PS to right page quickly*
So it does! Hmm... In that case, I have no idea. *grins*
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 2, 2012 17:37:36 GMT -5
Unfortunately, in JK's wizarding world, a lot of things seem to be explained away by being tradition, so that might be another reason for the first years to be taken across the lakes.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 4, 2012 11:39:12 GMT -5
There is no such thing as a wand signature. The trace was on Harry himself. Dobby imitated a wizard signature, and not even a specific one, which is more plausible to me than a specific wand. The trace is activated any time that magic is done around underage wizards. If there are adult wizards living in the area, the ministry ignores the "offenses," because there is no way to tell who has actually done the magic. Muggleborns, and Harry, however, have no such luck, and so they are punished. Just remembered something. In GoF, Arthur used magic at Privet Drive, in OotP at least Tonks, but then there was no warning about underage magic. If the trace registers simply the magic around an underage wizard, why did it not pick that up? It wasn't a wizard area, so it wouldn't automatically be put down on the adult wizards around, and at least in the latter case I seriously doubt the Ministry would have been informed. And Dumbledore used magic in HBP, too. |
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Post by lucyolsen on Jul 4, 2012 11:51:13 GMT -5
I know that magic was done around Harry in those cases, but what I said about how the trace works is how it was explained in DH, and it fits with what happened with Dobby.
In the cases where magic was done around Harry by adult wizards, we can explain that by them notifying the ministry that they were going to be there ahead of time, even in OotP, where they weren't getting on too well with the government. Hell, in that case, not only did Tonks do magic around Harry, Moody did magic on Harry.
It is the only explanation that makes sense, given how we know the trace works based on what is actually stated in the books. Either that, or it is a plot hole.
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 4, 2012 11:52:26 GMT -5
Seems more like a plot hole to me.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 4, 2012 11:56:18 GMT -5
Plot hole seems more likely, yes. In GoF, I could understand, seeing as Arthur had to have them connect to the Floo Network anyway. But with the situation in OotP as it was, I can't imagine they'd tell the Ministry. Umbitch and Fudge would find a way to turn that against them, too, seeing that Arthur even used the tube to avoid any magic around Harry on the way to the hearing.
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Post by Miss Wings on Jul 4, 2012 12:57:41 GMT -5
If I remember correctly it does state in one of the books that any wizarding child with magical parents could perform magic and not be traced because the Ministry would assume that it was the parents..
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 4, 2012 13:04:44 GMT -5
Yes, but Harry's not having magical guardians. So, why was he punished for Dobby's hover charm, but not for the Order members using magic a few times? That's what I am wondering about.
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