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Post by anjafifi on Jul 15, 2012 15:04:10 GMT -5
Does anyone else see anything wrong with Dumbledore having the elderwand, when he tells Harry he couldn´t be trusted with power.
Isn´t the elderwand the most powerful wand out there?
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 15, 2012 15:05:46 GMT -5
I don't think he meant magical power. I think he was talking about how he couldn't trust himself with a lot of political power, which is a different kind of power than what the Elder Wand is associated with.
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Post by Ayrine Sun on Jul 15, 2012 15:21:31 GMT -5
Does anyone else see anything wrong with Dumbledore having the elderwand, when he tells Harry he couldn´t be trusted with power. Isn´t the elderwand the most powerful wand out there? He couldn't resist, he should have got rid of it. The only reason he wasn't killed because of it (like most owners) is that he was smart enough to keep quiet about it. He probably convinced himself that he was using it for the right and the justice and protecting it from Dark Lords so it was OK, so yes, the truth he was weak against It Power. The Wizarding World is just lucky that he could resist the temptation of becoming Minister. Which is impressing knowing his carved Power. |
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Post by Kaiserin on Jul 15, 2012 15:34:17 GMT -5
Head of ICW , Head of Wizengamont, head of biggest/only school in britain. and because he was not minister was able to fly below the radar most of the time. until fudge got a rat up his *** he had Dumbles advising him as well. with the elder wand and for 11 years the cloak too hem was in a fairly powerful place. so he had political and magical power for at least 14 years if not more, and he was the one to probably leak the information about the potters deaths.
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Post by unbeastly on Jul 15, 2012 16:11:47 GMT -5
His power was in essence advisory not actual. Though he advised the ministry the minister had the final say as is obvious GOB onwards. He may of been the Head of the wizengamot but was not the only member and proceedings were decided by vote and as for most of his other titles I belive they are really only ceremonial. The only real power he ever exercises is as headmaster everything else is through respect people have for him.
As for the Elder Wand he uses it no different to his original wand and in all honesty he was powerful enough to beat Grindelwald with his original wand that I truly don't believe it made much difference overall. I mean it's not as if it made him all powerful for gods sake Draco was able to disarm him easily enough.
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Post by anjafifi on Jul 15, 2012 16:13:50 GMT -5
But wasn´t Draco disarming him part of his masterplan.
He was going to die at that point.
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Post by mkatl1 on Jul 15, 2012 16:14:02 GMT -5
His power was in essence advisory not actual. Though he advised the ministry the minister had the final say as is obvious GOB onwards. He may of been the Head of the wizengamot but was not the only member and proceedings were decided by vote and as for most of his other titles I belive they are really only ceremonial. The only real power he ever exercises is as headmaster everything else is through respect people have for him. As for the Elder Wand he uses it no different to his original wand and in all honesty he was powerful enough to beat Grindelwald with his original wand that I truly don't believe it made much difference overall. I mean it's not as if it made him all powerful for gods sake Draco was able to disarm him easily enough. Yeah but he was dying anyway so he could of stopped Draco if he wanted to. |
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 15, 2012 16:14:25 GMT -5
Draco was only able to disarm Dumbledore because of the potion that weakened Dumbledore, as well as the curse on his hand from the ring Horcrux.
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Post by mkatl1 on Jul 15, 2012 16:14:58 GMT -5
Lol great minds think alike anjafifi ;D
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Post by anjafifi on Jul 15, 2012 16:18:01 GMT -5
Looks like it :-)
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Post by blackroses77 on Jul 15, 2012 19:02:32 GMT -5
I've never understood the whole elder wand thing. How did Harry become it's master, Harry didn't disarm Draco when he was using the elder wand he disarmed him when Draco was using his own wand. So shouldn't Harry have been the owner of Draco's wand only not the elder wand. Since the elder wand wasn't taken away from Draco it should still be Draco's.
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Post by mkatl1 on Jul 15, 2012 19:09:02 GMT -5
I've never understood the whole elder wand thing. How did Harry become it's master, Harry didn't disarm Draco when he was using the elder wand he disarmed him when Draco was using his own wand. So shouldn't Harry have been the owner of Draco's wand only not the elder wand. Since the elder wand wasn't taken away from Draco it should still be Draco's. That's actually a good point :/ . Draco should be the owner of the elder wand not Harry!!! |
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Post by blackroses77 on Jul 15, 2012 19:18:26 GMT -5
That's what I always thought. JKR made no sense with that whole plot point.
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Post by lucyolsen on Jul 15, 2012 19:29:54 GMT -5
Draco's original wand wasn't the type of wand to determine it's loyalties by how well its master could fight. Only a few wands do that, and the Elderwand is one of them. Draco was the master of the Elderwand. Draco got disarmed. Therefore, the Elderwand changed allegiances. It's not exactly a very loyal thing, and certainly you can't argue logic with this stick.
Now, the more pressing questions, is, how exactly did Voldemort expect that the Elderwand would change allegiances through death by snake? That didn't show his magical skill at all. It makes much less sense for Nagini killing Snape to change the allegiance of the Elderwand to Voldemort than it does from Draco to Harry just because Draco got disarmed while he wasn't actually using the Elderwand. At least Harry was doing the actual disarming.
If anything, Nagini killing Snape means that the Elderwand now belongs to Nagini (and therefore it now belongs to Neville).
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Post by mkatl1 on Jul 15, 2012 19:38:44 GMT -5
Okay now I'm even more confused lol :/ ... And am I the only one who thinks its ridiculas that Harry killed voldemort with an expelliramus ? While voldemort threw an Arvada kadava lol
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 15, 2012 19:44:58 GMT -5
It is utterly ridiculous, but I almost expected it to happen, especially after Remus said in the chapter where they found out that Mody was dead, that Harry shouldn't let Expelliarmus become his signature move, and that there was no way he could win the war with such a simple spell.
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Post by blackroses77 on Jul 15, 2012 19:46:59 GMT -5
If anything, Nagini killing Snape means that the Elderwand now belongs to Nagini (and therefore it now belongs to Neville). *snerk* Now that is a hilarious thought. And by the same token Voldie is pretty stupid for not figuring out that Draco was the owner and not Snape to begin with. But I still don't think it makes sense how Harry became the owner of the elder wand. Actually nothing about wands are consistant in the books. The wand chooses the wizard and no wizard is supposed to be able to work as well with a wand that isn't their own, but Hermione used Harry's wand in PS to open the door, Harry uses Draco's wand just fine and Ron is capable of using Charlie's old wand that is actually damaged as shown in PS when he says the unicorn hair is poking out. And for as many times as all of them have been disarmed throughout the books their wands are still considered theirs. |
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Post by mkatl1 on Jul 15, 2012 19:47:22 GMT -5
Okay glad Im not the only one lol ...
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Post by G. Novella on Jul 16, 2012 3:38:03 GMT -5
Snape probably shielded Draco's involvement though, so Voldie probably thought Snape did everything.
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 16, 2012 3:40:00 GMT -5
*sniff sniff* What's that I smell? More deliciously bad plot holes?  |
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Post by G. Novella on Jul 16, 2012 3:41:26 GMT -5
*grabs the pitchforks* Dig in Kuma!
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 16, 2012 3:48:36 GMT -5
*grabs one* With pleasure! My take on all this, (with lots of Dumbles-bashing, because hey, everything is good with it): First of all, I highly doubt Dumbledore actually dislikes power. In fact, I think he enjoys lording it over others. As to not wanting to be minister, he probably sees it as a boring job, and just pretends to be. So having a supposedly unstoppable wand? Yeah, that's right up his alley. Secondly, what is the freaking point of the Elderwand? It just seems to be put in there because it's cool. At least the ring and the cloak have some sort of purpose! Yes, the Elderwand is powerful, but power like that doesn't mean anything if the wand can be swayed easily. Yes, it led to Voldemort's defeat, but the whole thing bothered me from the get-go. It just seems to contrived... And the whole process of Harry gaining the wand was a convoluted mess. *shakes head and sighs* |
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Post by Ayrine Sun on Jul 16, 2012 4:53:00 GMT -5
Worst, if Voldemort wanted to take the wand allegiance using his horcrux, because he has a part of his soul in Nagini, that would mean Harry and Voldemort are Co-Masters of the Elderwand because Harry is an Horcrux too.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 16, 2012 9:48:10 GMT -5
That whole wand master stuff doesn't make much sense. The end of the book sometimes sounds as if JKR couldn't decide if Lily's protection was supposed to defeat Voldemort or the Hallows or what and then just meshed everything together.
Besides the points already made - at the end it's said that the Elder Wand would be made ineffective if Harry died a natural death after hiding it. But please, he's working as an Auror. The moment he gets disarmed in practice, the wand would change allegiance, right? Sooo - how was that going to work? That doesn't fit at all with what was said during Harry's duell with Voldemort. The whole idea was rather poorly thought out.
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 16, 2012 9:49:34 GMT -5
Agreed, Kitty. Very much so.
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 16, 2012 9:59:19 GMT -5
One thing JK never put in any of her books, but we can all infer from some of the things the characters said, was that intent is everything, so I would assume that whenever Harry was disarmed in practice, the intent was only for him to learn, and therefore the wand's allegiance wouldn't change. That's my take on it.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 16, 2012 10:07:19 GMT -5
That may be, but Aurors get into real duels, too, and then it's certainly the intent of the caster to disarm Harry. Then what?
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Post by Ayrine Sun on Jul 16, 2012 10:20:53 GMT -5
True, but if he doesn't use it and get disarmed, his opponent will never know that he got the wand allegiance and if he is disarmed himself and so on, the trace of the successive masters has great chance to disappear and eventually one of them will die by natural death.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 16, 2012 10:32:56 GMT -5
Seeing that Harry announced to the whole Hall that he has the Elder Wand, I can see people hunting for that one, though. There would be people who thought to use it for their own ends and would've hunted it down. The most safe option would have been to destroy it.
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Post by Ayrine Sun on Jul 16, 2012 10:35:29 GMT -5
if it's possible to destroy it, then yes, that's the best option.
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