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Post by eskimoRock on Aug 21, 2012 11:06:37 GMT -5
Dumbledores an idiot, what can I say?  |
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Post by Kitty279 on Aug 21, 2012 11:41:23 GMT -5
Nothing. You expressed it very well in these few words  |
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Post by melissar2 on Aug 21, 2012 12:30:56 GMT -5
Sure, but I still think he should have tried to find a better way to deal with the connection in the first place. Just because Dumbledore didn't know a way that doesn't mean there is none. And even without that, Voldemort knew about the prophecy, or rather, part of it. Would it have been so bad to tell Harry that there was one, and the part Voldemort knew and tell him that for security reasons because of the connection, they don't want to tell him the rest? And that they fear the connection could be used both ways? That would not have given Voldemort any new information, but it would have saved Harry all the anger and frustration about being treated like a child that can't be trusted with anything even after everything, it would have prevented him from trying to find out more (Dumbledore of all people should have known since first year that Harry would try to find out!!) and he would have been warned that Voldemort could have used the connection to lay a trap. In other words, it would have prevented the whole mess. Agree with this. Why does Dumbledore think it's a good idea that Voldemort knows about the prophecy, even know part of the prophecy, but Harry isn't told anything? Other than Dumbledore being an idiot, I mean. Slightly off-topic, but brought up by Dumbledore knowing that Harry would try to find things out... I've read a couple fics where Snape is called out for leaving the pensieve out on his desk when he leaves, because he KNOWS how curious Harry is and knows Harry would look. I'm leaning slightly towards it being a set-up myself. It just seems fishy that Dumbledore leaves (is kicked out of depending on your view) and not long afterwards Snape calls off the lessons due to Harry invading his privacy. |
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Post by Kitty279 on Aug 21, 2012 12:41:50 GMT -5
The cynic in me said that he didn't want to ever tell Harry before he sent him to commit suicide ...
Hm, that's a new one to me, but one that makes sense (not a Snape fan here). Add to that the long time Snape needed to get the Order to the DoM - he could just send a Patronus, for heavens sake, and the kids needed hours to get to London, so that appears fishy to me, too.
Plus, I always thought that Snape wasn't really teaching Harry anything, that sounded more like mind-rape than Occlumency. It seems obvious that you need trust between people doing this to teach it, and anyone believing that Harry and Snape trusted each other is dumber than a troll.
In consequence, I suspect Snape was still playing both sides, so he came out on top no matter who won in the end.
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Post by werewulfking on Aug 21, 2012 20:42:53 GMT -5
Wow good thought Kitty. I normally like to think that Snape was totally loyal to Lily's memory and to a lesser extent Dumbledore and that the explanation for Harry's inability to learn Occlumency is
1.: Snape is a bad teacher at anything that he does teach
2.: Harry is not suited for Occlumency as it means getting control over all of your emotions and he acts very impulsively
3.: the soul to soul connection can only be blocked by the feeling of love as it did in DH and in OOTP because only then Voldemort can not stand to join Harry's mind and the souls get a greater "distance" between them
And while I understand many things JKR wrote in her books and also like most of it the importance of the prophecy for Voldemort is something I can't explain. I too don't know why it was so important to keep the prophecy from him. Would it have told him something about Harry or their connection? - No. Would it have told him what powers Harry has? - No. So why guard it at all?
That Dumbledore distanced himself from Harry I can understand but why not start trying to close any and all connection to Voldemort in the summer and while being at it why not tell Harry a bit about the efforts of the OOTP during it?
Well in the end the fifth book is probably one of the weaker parts in the series but still a very good read.
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Post by dracosfairmaiden on Aug 21, 2012 21:44:04 GMT -5
Agreed about Snape's pensive question. I felt like he was just setting Harry up since he knows how curious he is.
OOP was in the middle for me. I didn't hate or love it. The one thing I loved about it was the DA. It let the more minor characters in the series have a more central role. It was probably the only source of house unity in the entire series. Other than that, it felt weaker than the other books. It's not my least favorite, but it's not my favorite.
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Post by Kitty279 on Aug 22, 2012 4:57:39 GMT -5
Wow good thought Kitty. I normally like to think that Snape was totally loyal to Lily's memory and to a lesser extent Dumbledore and that the explanation for Harry's inability to learn Occlumency is 1.: Snape is a bad teacher at anything that he does teach 2.: Harry is not suited for Occlumency as it means getting control over all of your emotions and he acts very impulsively 3.: the soul to soul connection can only be blocked by the feeling of love as it did in DH and in OOTP because only then Voldemort can not stand to join Harry's mind and the souls get a greater "distance" between them Glad we agree on something for once 1) is absolutely true - the man may be a Potions Master, but he can't teach to save his life. 2) I can imagine that for emotional people it's harder, but shouldn't there be a different way for them to learn? Of course, Snape wouldn't know it (or not use it); he's too cold and unemotional to even understand the problem. Plus, he kept baiting Harry all the time, making it harder for him. 3) interesting thought. But if it were true, then Dumbledore once again messed up - if love is the only way to block it, then sending Harry back to his abusive relatives and keep him from everyone he loves won't help. Exactly. The one part Moldyshorts didn't know yet was the 'marked him as his equal', right? And that was only relevant *before* the attack on Halloween 1981. Afterwards, what would change? He was already out for Harry's blood, so what difference does it make if he knows the whole prophecy or not? These guard shifts at the Ministry did endanger many of the Order and nearly cost Arthur's life, but for what? Keeping the knowledge from Voldemort that he shouldn't have attacked Harry 14 years ago?? They could have used the Order members for more important things. *nods* Yeah, why not start on Occlumency right at the beginning of the summer holidays, instead of isolating Harry? And there has to be someone else in the Order who could have taught Harry for two months or so - very likely with more success. Plus, if they had told Harry the truth, he'd have understood the importance. So he only knew that the connection saved Arthur's life ... With the huge exception of her killing Sirius off *growls at JKR* |
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Post by physicssquid on Aug 22, 2012 7:47:40 GMT -5
Exactly. The one part Moldyshorts didn't know yet was the 'marked him as his equal', right?. I don't think Mouldywarts knew the bit about 'neither can live while the other survives' either. I don't know whether that would have affected anything or not, but I would guess that he would realise that he had accidentally turned Harry into a Horcrux, and do somethign different. |
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Post by Kitty279 on Aug 22, 2012 7:57:46 GMT -5
Ah yes, that part was probably the rest of what Snape didn't hear. Hm ... *if* Voldemort realised that Harry was a Horcrux ... wouldn't it be in his own best interest to stop his attacks on Harry? It's another soul anchor for him?
On the other hand, that 'neither can live while the other survives' never made much sense to me. After fourth year, both are very much alive, so can someone explain to me what it is supposed to mean?
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Post by unbeastly on Aug 22, 2012 9:15:52 GMT -5
That as long as the other lives they will be stuck in an endless cycle of Voldermort trying to kill Harry and Harry foiling his plans. Only with the death of the other will they be able to break the cycle
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Post by physicssquid on Aug 22, 2012 9:22:12 GMT -5
That as long as the other lives they will be stuck in an endless cycle of Voldermort trying to kill Harry and Harry foiling his plans. Only with the death of the other will they be able to break the cycle That makes sense. Harry can't have a proper life with Voldemort endessly trying to kill him, and Voldemort can't continue working towards his goal of having the entire wizarding world under his control with Harry alive and working to destroy him. |
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Post by Kitty279 on Aug 22, 2012 10:01:49 GMT -5
Hm, that's one way to explain it that appears to at least make some sense, yes.
Though I don't see why that had to be kept a secret from Voldemort, as knowing it or not would not make any difference; he still would try to kill Harry.
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Post by unbeastly on Aug 22, 2012 12:09:27 GMT -5
I think part of keeping it from Voldermort was to keep him guessing. It was probably hoped to keep him wary not to mention he spent much of his time and resources in trying to get to it rather than on anything else so it worked as a good distraction.
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Post by Kitty279 on Aug 22, 2012 12:24:54 GMT -5
At what cost? Sturgis in Azkaban, Arthur nearly killed, Sirius died, Harry had to pay the price in more than one regard ... all to distract a mass murderer? No, that plan would be crazy. On the other hand, seeing it came from Dumbledore ...
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Post by unbeastly on Aug 22, 2012 12:31:39 GMT -5
I don't think the plan was to distract him I just think it was an added benefit.
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Post by Kitty279 on Aug 22, 2012 13:08:34 GMT -5
For Dumbledore, maybe, but others paid the price, and the entirely wrong people at that.
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Post by unbeastly on Aug 22, 2012 13:35:17 GMT -5
I know but at the same time they did voluntarily join the order and the fight. They knew there was a chance they could get hurt after all war isn't safe.
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Chameleon
Headmaster/Headmistress
Call me Headmistress Chams.
Posts: 1,873
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Post by Chameleon on Aug 22, 2012 14:46:09 GMT -5
Exactly. Dumbledore did a lot of mistakes, but he was the one who needed to make the decisions. He needed to try to protect the people. We can't fault Dumbledore for every death in the war, as the most of them were adults and knew the risk, that they could die. If Arthur hadn't got bitten by the snake, he could have been killed on a other way, or... There's many possibilities, but there's always causalities.
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Post by viralic1 on Aug 22, 2012 14:48:51 GMT -5
But Arthur being bitten was ENTIRELY unnecessary. We know that there are protections on the prophecy was protected by magical protections, and only Harry or Voldemort could get it. Was Arthur supposed to fight off voldemort if he showed up?
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Post by moonlightfox143 on Sept 1, 2012 19:09:58 GMT -5
Chamber of Secrets is one of my least favorites because it seems so slow to me. It doesn't help that I think the trio was stupid for the whole Polyjuice Potion plan. They didn't even know where the Slytherin common room was before they took the potion. I mean, come on. And them only being twelve then isn't an excuse, because I read that book when I was around twelve or thirteen and still thought they planned that horribly.
Deathly Hallows is the other one I didn't like because it felt to me like J.K. was running out of ideas and decided to just start throwing random things in. But that's just my opinion.
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Post by Kitty279 on Sept 2, 2012 0:35:43 GMT -5
The most interesting part of that Polyjuice plan is that it was from Hermione, who is always shown as such a know-it-all and who bullied the boys into it. You'd think she had planned further ahead, seeing how she always needs to know every detail. It wasn't that well thought out, after all, and that despite the fact that she had a whole month to think about it while they brewed the potion; it wasn't a spur of the moment idea.
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Post by moonlightfox143 on Sept 2, 2012 17:11:03 GMT -5
Yeah, I think J.K. really messed up there. If Hermione was as smart as the books make her out to be, then how could she come up with such a ridiculous plan?
Not only were they unprepared, but didn't the book say at some point that the Polyjuice was really complicated and could kill you if you got something wrong? I mean if she had at least had some practice making it then I could understand, but that was her first time. It just seemed completely irresponsible and unrealistic to think she would get the potion right the first time.
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Post by readingdeatheater on Sept 2, 2012 17:26:28 GMT -5
Hermione is book smart so she would be able to make the potion however you have to understand that they were twelve years old so her logical knowledge is not going to be the best.
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Post by brokenquill92 on Sept 2, 2012 19:29:49 GMT -5
Well I suppose her lion recklessness had to show at some point or else she'd be a Ravenclaw
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Post by moonlightfox143 on Sept 2, 2012 21:41:27 GMT -5
Hermione is book smart so she would be able to make the potion. I can honestly say I don't agree with that. Reading about something and doing it are two completely different things. You can read all about making a computer, but does that really mean you can put it together and have it work on the first try without any help from someone who has made one? I don't know, I just don't buy it. But, whatever, to each his own, yeah? |
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Post by Kitty279 on Sept 3, 2012 0:16:10 GMT -5
Somehow I find it funny how she thought she can make such a complicated potion, but at the same time freaks out about a first year exam and thinks she has to start revising months earlier to be prepared. If she is so confident about her own abilities to brew, why has she no confidence at all when it comes to tests?
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Post by brokenquill92 on Sept 3, 2012 1:12:47 GMT -5
Somehow I find it funny how she thought she can make such a complicated potion, but at the same time freaks out about a first year exam and thinks she has to start revising months earlier to be prepared. If she is so confident about her own abilities to brew, why has she no confidence at all when it comes to tests? A lot of people get like that I know I do |
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Post by viralic1 on Sept 3, 2012 21:10:09 GMT -5
It's just tests. Mainly, it's teachers fault, because they place so much importance on tests, but in reality it's rather easy. Heck, just look at Florida's testing. There is SO much stress pressed on the FCATs, it's ridiculous. You get two hours to take a 50 problem test, and if you speak one word, or even sneeze, you get kicked out and your test invalidated. The teachers make it seem like the FCAT alone decides your future and fate, yet in reality it affects literally nothing. All it does is tell government officials what students are doing well in what subject.
Even if it is unimportant, people get so stressed when it comes time for FCATs. Heck, last year three kids had nervous breakdowns, just from the idea of the test.
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Post by Kitty279 on Sept 3, 2012 23:45:53 GMT -5
That's really stupid. Why all that stress for nothing?
Besides, with my chronic cold, I'd never get through that test because I can't go 2 hours without sneezing. That wouldn't even be possible here.
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Chameleon
Headmaster/Headmistress
Call me Headmistress Chams.
Posts: 1,873
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Post by Chameleon on Sept 4, 2012 5:35:43 GMT -5
Ooh! That's ridicilous! Makes me happy that I wasn't in that kind of test. We've got an PISA test... Can't remember if it's second every year, or third for ninth grades. Which means that I've not been tested there. But that's all about showing how great the schools in country are. And we've been stressing for a few years how badly we do, in comparison to the other countries, like Finland, they're in the top. I think there was 67 countries attending last time.
But that test I'm about taking. It's kind of a tough situation for me. If I don't pass, well then I'm kicked out of my school, because I don't live up to the qualifies they demand of the students.
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