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Post by moonlightfox143 on Sept 1, 2012 18:27:22 GMT -5
Okay, so when I first started writing my first Fanfiction, I was getting tons of reviews saying my character was a Mary-sue. Now at the time, I was just starting so I did take offense, but now I understand why they said what they did and have done my best to rectify it in my second one. Anyways, my point is, while I was getting all this hate mail about my character, I saw quiet a few stories where they made Harry, Hermione or some other canon character practically godlike with no faults. And these stories were getting only praise, with the odd critic here or there. And further more, has anyone noticed that Hermione, Harry and even Ginny a little bit, are all Mary-sues in canon? So, my question is; why is it okay for canon characters to be Mary-sues, but the moment you give an OC anything interesting, they get crucified? I don't mean for this to sound angry or anything or to offend anyone. I'm honestly curious and was wondering if anyone else had noticed this, too.  |
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Post by Kitty279 on Sept 2, 2012 0:48:40 GMT -5
That's what Wikipedia has to say about Mary Sue:
A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader. It is generally accepted as a character whose positive aspects overwhelm their other traits until they become one-dimensional. While the label "Mary Sue" itself originates from a parody of this type of character, most characters labelled "Mary Sues" by readers are not intended by authors as such. Male Mary Sues are often dubbed "Gary Stu", "Larry Stu", "Marty Stu", or similar names.
While the term is generally limited to fan-created characters, and its most common usage today occurs within the fan fiction community or in reference to fan fiction, original characters in role-playing games or literary canon are also sometimes criticized as being "Mary Sues" or "canon Sues" if they dominate the spotlight or are too unrealistic or unlikely in other ways. One example of this criticism is Wesley Crusher from Star Trek: The Next Generation. (bold by me)
So, I guess the canon characters aren't so much Mary Sues because usually it's your own OCs who are meant with that term.
As for the hate reviews ... I'm sorry you were attacked that way on your first attempt, but there are always some reviewers who spew hate everywhere. I've seen many reviews who were being very mean about stories I thought great. On the other hand, there are gushing reviews along the line of "best story ever" for stories that were so bad I didn't get even through the first chapter (I expect a modicum of plot, spelling and grammar!) Really, I don't understand some reviewers.
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Post by moonlightfox143 on Sept 2, 2012 17:16:30 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't really get some reviewers either.
But, I don't know, I just thought it was kind of ridiculous that fans are allowed to make the canon characters godlike but OC's aren't allowed to even be mildly interesting any more. It's sad, because I've seen this happen to a lot of good OC's, not just my own.
Oh, well. Society is what it is.
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Post by Kitty279 on Sept 3, 2012 0:10:33 GMT -5
It *is* ridiculous, yes. To me, OCs can, when done well, enhance a story quite a bit. In my other fandom (Tolkien), some authors have created OCs that grew so much on me and fit so well into the original world that I actually have problems to remember that they are only OCs.
OTOH, that tendency to make canon characters godlike isn't that great in my eyes, either. It's ok to have them a bit more powerful, but when they can do everything with no effort, the story gets boring very easily. For my taste, that's worse than a good OC.
Maybe the problem is which website you are on. That Tolkien archive where I hang out is usually more tolerant. FFN has a lot of people who only want canon, and every divergence is causing them to throw a fit. They don't appreciate a story for beign well-written, but complain about everything that's not just like in the original (or to their liking, for that matter). What's the use of fanfiction if you are only retelling the original books??
Sadly, you can't really do anything. Just try not to take them too seriously.
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Post by moonlightfox143 on Sept 3, 2012 12:45:16 GMT -5
Yeah, I was actually looking into other sites to post my story on, but I haven't found any good ones yet. Like a lot of the other HPFF sites are hard to navigate and some are really strict. So, I've pretty much learned to ignore anyone who doesn't give good reasons or help when flaming my story. (Most would just give a very unhelpful, "this is stupid". I want to know *what* makes it stupid, so I can fix it.) Though, I am happy to say that my second book hasn't gotten any bad reviews yet, so I must be doing something right, yeah?  Anyways, thanks for replying and the support |
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Post by viralic1 on Sept 3, 2012 21:22:07 GMT -5
It does suck when you get a review flaming you, or accusing you of making a mary sue, but sometimes the character you wrote isn't a mary-sue, sometimes the flaws just aren't right out in the open, and people can't be bothered to read into people a bit.
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Post by moonlightfox143 on Sept 3, 2012 21:31:50 GMT -5
Exactly. If they had just read a few more chapters in, they would have seen her faults start to pop up, not blatantly, but they were there. Plus the whole story hints towards her actually being unhinged. But they just read the first chapter and decide she's a Mary-sue.
Oh, well. I've done what I can to fix it in my second story and I've even started going back over my first to fix things there, so hopefully I wont get another Mary-sue review.
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Post by Kitty279 on Sept 3, 2012 23:51:33 GMT -5
*shakes head* I've stopped reading in the first chapter when the spelling and grammar were too atrocious, because that usually doesn't really change, but I'd not judge the whole story plot by one chapter. Oh well, some people ... Anyway, you are welcome! And it sounds as if you are really trying to learn how to do it better, so you seem to be doing just fine now |
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Post by G. Novella on Sept 4, 2012 17:26:15 GMT -5
I find OCs are always great to help explain why characters do things and such. They can provide excellent little nudges, and make for good entertainment. However, it's difficult to write an OC as a well-placed character without sounding cheesy. It's all about how involved they are at the end of the day.
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Post by jaffaninja on Sept 4, 2012 23:53:05 GMT -5
For me, it all depends on how well the OC is written. Yes, a lot of OCs are Mary-Sues, but they don't have to be, even if they're a central character. For example, there's a fanfiction series called the Dangerverse on FFN (first story Living With Danger) and one of the central characters IS an OC. However, they're a really well developed OC, with flaws and with personality, and it makes the whole story better.
It's all down to whether or not they're an actual character, not a cardboard cut-out. Cut-outs make for awful stories, but a well written character can actually enhance the writing. That's my opinion anyway.
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Post by roarke on Sept 5, 2012 10:14:15 GMT -5
I agree that there's a lot of published books that have Mary Sues, and Gary Stus as well, as protagonists (Twilight, Fallen, Evermore, Marked, well, most of books with a female protagonist and a supernatural plot). But I don't think Harry Potter is one of those.
Harry has a somewhat ugly temper, disregard for rules and authority, a hero complex and is too proud and stubborn to ask for his friends help. Hermione is bossy and somewhat arrogant and condescending. Ron doesn't think before talking, being hurtful a lot of times, he is kind of lazy, jealous and has an inferiority complex.
And that's just the Golden Trio. So no, I don't think JK wrote Mary Sues.
And about OC's, well, to be fair, most of OC's in fics I've read were Mary Sues. Most, but not all of them. I myself am not to fond of OCs, but yes, I think they can contribute to some stories, if well-written.
But writing a canon-character as godlike is far more unforgivable than writing an Mary Sue OC. I simply hate fics where they make Harry super-powerful, super-smart and super-friendly. It's just terrible.
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Post by moonlightfox143 on Sept 5, 2012 18:32:07 GMT -5
I agree that there are far more Mary-sue OC's out there then good ones, but I just can't stand how they read the first chapter and decided it's horrible. I mean, I'll do that once in a while, too, but that's because, like Kitty said, the spelling and grammar were completely atrocious or the characters were so OOC.
(I once read a story were in the first chapter, it shows Remus, Sirius and an OC showing up at Godric's Hollow after Lily and James were killed and they spent maybe two sentences on grief and then suddenly it was declarations of love and tears of happiness.)
I get that at the moment, what I have posted isn't that great, but I'm working on fixing it and it really isn't as bad as they try to make it out to be. I don't know, I guess I posted it to get some honest opinions,(since I don't really trust that my friends and family would tell the whole truth) and to get practice for the future, and all I seemed to get at first were people who wouldn't even tell me why she was a Mary-Sue or why they thought the story was stupid.
Maybe, I'm just overreacting.
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Post by teflonbilly on Sept 5, 2012 18:39:50 GMT -5
Something that authors might try to do to help reduce their OC going down the Mary Sue lane is writing an OC that is not their own gender. PROVIDED IT ISN'T SLASH!
It will force the author to think outside of their own box.
If you are thinking of adding a new child for a canon character and your first impulse is for them to have a daughter, make it a son. If you want to introduce a new male co-worker for Hermione, Ron, or Harry, make it a girl, etc...
TB
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