The Prophecy

[Miss Wings]

I'm currently reading some Dobby and Harry stories right not and it got me thinking-

What if it wasn't Harry or Neville?

What if people thought that it was but it was actually someone/thing else?

Maybe a certain little elf was bought on the same day?

[Kitty279]

That prophecy is wide open to interpretation, and the longer I think about it, the less it makes sense to me. Besides, I find it strange that the two most powerful wizards of the time were so eager to believe it. At least of Dumbledore, I'd have expected better. And if he knew Voldemort believed in it, why not try to circumvent it, instead of helping him to fulfil it by setting a baby up as the one who has to do his dirty job? The prophecy was a convenient excuse not to take on Moldyshorts himself.

As for who was really meant, here are some of my thoughts about that prophecy. As you can see, I have my doubts as well if their interpretation was necessarily correct.

[Miss Wings]

Oops, didn't spot that thread. Sorry..

If you look on Portkey.Org there's some Dan/Emma H/Hr fics where Emma or Dan interprit(?) the prophecy as happening when Harry is 1. Another way of looking at it is the month of conception and not the birth.

[Kitty279]

No need to apologise, I had to go back several pages to find the old thread and only remembered it because I started it. Just linked to it because I was too lazy to repeat the arguments I made there.

Yeah, that's what I said in that post, too - it could easily be said that it was fulfilled on Halloween 1981, and snake-face and the old meddler could have saved everyone a lot of stress. But of course, where would the story be then?

Hm, conception? That's a new idea to me, but an interesting one. There are so many possibilities to look at that stupid thing differently, why do the two oh-so-powerful wizards not think about others? They just take one and then stubbornly go with that, no matter how much it makes sense. No logic and common sense, really. But then, they are wizards.

[Miss Wings]

just because a baby or unknown isn't actually born on that date doesn't mean that they weren't concieved. as for the wizards- when have they ever had common sence?

[Kitty279]

Technically, the Dark Lord doesn't even have to be Voldemort. It could apply to someone coming later - with the way they allow the bad guys to buy their way out of trouble, it's clear that the Brits will have another one sooner or later. Prophecies don't have to be fulfilled at once, after all.

[ayrine]

The prophecy is, IMO, the same paradox as the time travel paradox.

I mean, was the prophecy about Voldemort and Harry in the first place and consequently Voldemort only realized his fate?
Or was the fact that Voldemort chose to believe the prophecy (and believed Harry was his enemy) and then acted in a way that made it come true or at last made it fit their reality? => Like Oedipus's tragedy.

In comparison, did DD send Harry and Hermione to save Buck and Sirius because DD saw them doing it first few hours before (just before buck execution)?
Or did DD see Harry and Hermione to save Buck and Sirius because DD sent them to do it first?

It isn't about what is true but about what "one chooses to believe" as true (which vary from a person to another) concerning facts from the future (which make the whole affair really insure and murky), also the cause-to-effect concept applies differently, because the supposedly effect become the cause, and we have a paradox.

As for : why did Voldemort believe it and acted accordingly ?
It's because he is a paranoiac and a coward. He didn't want to take the risk of Harry growing and becoming stronger than him even if it was 1 in a trillion chance.
I think the prophecy was more about Snape + Lily + Harry + DD + Voldemort. DD hears the prophecy and Snape too (partially), then Snape tells Voldemort, Voldemort chooses Harry because he saw himself in him and that will kill Lily too, Snape asks Voldemort to spare her, Voldemort accepts because Snape gave him the prophecy, Lily is able to sacrifice her life because she alone is given the choice to live, Voldemort power is broken when he tries to kill Harry, DD interprets it as the prophecy possibly being partially fulfilled and while DD can't be sure it's Harry, DD can't just write it off as impossible, so DD protects Harry from Voldemort (just "in case" Harry is really the "Chosen One" and because Voldemort won't leave him alone anymore) and DD wait until Harry goes to Hogwarts, then DD tests Harry to see if he is the one able to fulfill the prophecy, Harry is up to the challenges, which convinces DD even more that Harry is the one who has to do it.

[ayrine]

Jan 4, 2013 13:35:02 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Technically, the Dark Lord doesn't even have to be Voldemort. It could apply to someone coming later - with the way they allow the bad guys to buy their way out of trouble, it's clear that the Brits will have another one sooner or later. Prophecies don't have to be fulfilled at once, after all.

I was just doing some homework and got this idea.

You know Lord Voldemort did make 6 (well 7) hoxcrux not only to insure his immortality but also to realize his ambition, to have an absolute and indisputable power, which mean that after taking over England, he would have extended his activity to other countries (by finding allies who have the same ideologies), and would be the supreme and eternal ruler of the world.

So someone like him wouldn't doubt he is the Dark Lord of the prophecy. Because otherwise, that would suppose :

1-he dies and there will be another Dark Lord, or;
2-he lives but he looses his power or he isn't the most powerful anymore, or;
3-he lives and he is (forcibly?) sharing his power with another Dark Lord.

But each of these options is incompatible with Lord Voldemort's Egocentric and Egomaniac tendencies and thinking's patterns, there would never be another Dark Lord after himself, he would make sure of it.



Then, you have to add :

1-the prophecy was made in England (which combine the space and time and include the solar calendar and the number of couples that defied Voldemort), even if it's a weak argument, it still does count, it's more logical to think it's about Voldemort who is growing more and more powerful than a hypothetical future Dark Lord. And the fact that he was growing more powerful limit the number of couple who could be identified, I mean it would be more and more difficult to survive his attacks.

2-the prophecy was overhead by his Death Eater, which was interpreted by Voldemort by a prophecy in his favor (that was made to prevent his destruction) and not against him.

3-the prophecy was made to Dumbledore, Voldemort archenemy and who he feared the most, even more so, Dumbledore knew all the prophecy (seen as a disadvantage by Voldemort), which probably pushed Voldemort to action because he feared that Dumbledore could use the prophecy and the Chosen One against him, well in addition to his cowardice.

4-Lord Voldemort's superstition (7 soul's parts) and paranoiac personality, someone who isn't sickly paranoiac would have made 1 hoxcrux (maybe two if he wanted to use one of them for something), but he did 6 and knowing the suffering that happen when you only make one, it means that his fear of death was unimaginably strong and he was doing his utmost to insure his surviving, it's also really obvious that he was waiting for the threat that someone would come and defy him (a threat he identified in Harry, the half blood baby boy, just like him).

All that explain why LV accepted the prophecy without doubt and attacked Harry Potter.

[Kitty279]

You're right, LV would have assumed it was him the prophecy was about. He can't have any other dark lord be any more powerful, after all!

Of course it makes sense when you put it like that. I was just saying that theoretically, it could have been a prophecy that was supposed to be fulfilled many years later. Look at Nostradamus, for instance. But with the two most powerful wizards at that time, it was inevitable that they tried to fulfill the prophecy. Sometimes I wonder how things would have tone if they had just laughed, said they don't believe in divination and ignored everything

[Miss Wings]

In other words the one shot where McG does the interview and totally ignores the Prophecy.

[ayrine]

Jan 28, 2013 12:11:59 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

You're right, LV would have assumed it was him the prophecy was about. He can't have any other dark lord be any more powerful, after all!

Of course it makes sense when you put it like that. I was just saying that theoretically, it could have been a prophecy that was supposed to be fulfilled many years later. Look at Nostradamus, for instance. But with the two most powerful wizards at that time, it was inevitable that they tried to fulfill the prophecy. Sometimes I wonder how things would have tone if they had just laughed, said they don't believe in divination and ignored everything

Well theoretically, if you strip the prophecy of any spatio-temporal context and examine it for the pleasure of it, well it's more of a series of words and strange sentences that make little sens (in particular the second part about : killing each others because neither can survive).

And if neither had believed it, IMO, probably Lord Voldemort would have taken over the world in a foreseeable future (all we know about the first war shows that the light side was loosing, and loosing hard, well that what I understood), and the good ones would probably die or be too afraid to fight until one day, something similar would happen (maybe not a prophecy, but a designed enemy who has "love" as power) and Lord Voldemort would make a mistake (underestimating him) and be vanquished hopefully.
Because, IMO, he is too strong (knew too much of Dark Magic) and paranoiac to be vanquished in the usual way, you wouldn't even be able to approach him or duel him.

[Kitty279]

IMO that part about 'neither can live while the other survives' fitted much better before Voldemort's rebirth. After that, both were very much alive, right?

Dumbledore was the only wizard Voldemort ever feared, because he was equally powerful. But he only sat on his bony arse and waited until his pawn was old enough to be sacrificed. Plus, he's giving the good guys umpteen second chances, making sure they get worse and worse. What if you take the prophecy away? Would the old man finally have gotten off his butt and used his power to end the threat? Or did he wait indefinitely for Voldemort to grow a conscience and turn into a good guy?

Personally, I never liked 'love' as the 'power he knows not' and still don't. It sounds way too much like you could hug and kiss a dark lord into destruction, which is laughable. Besides, it's cheesy. And the way Harry was raised, he doesn't really know love, so how is he supposed to defeat LV with it? Sure, he keeps endangering himself for his friends, but to me it always looked more like he doesn't value his own life enough and thinks his friends are more important because they have family that would miss them. For me, it lessened the end of the story. And who says it wasn't the Hallows? Or the wand allegiance? (Not that that was any better) For me the whole end is pretty dissatisfying.

[ayrine]

Jan 28, 2013 13:35:47 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

IMO that part about 'neither can live while the other survives' fitted much better before Voldemort's rebirth. After that, both were very much alive, right?

Yes and no, even if it fitted Voldemort more "properly" when he was a "vapor", it could also fit Harry and Voldemort "figuratively" in a way that neither had a real life but were surviving (here it's the quality of their existences that is meant not the fact that they do exist), Voldemort obsessing over Harry and forgetting the rest and Harry stalked by Voldemort and living in perpetual danger and couldn't see any future for himself.

Jan 28, 2013 13:35:47 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Dumbledore was the only wizard Voldemort ever feared, because he was equally powerful. But he only sat on his bony arse and waited until his pawn was old enough to be sacrificed. Plus, he's giving the good guys umpteen second chances, making sure they get worse and worse. What if you take the prophecy away? Would the old man finally have gotten off his butt and used his power to end the threat? Or did he wait indefinitely for Voldemort to grow a conscience and turn into a good guy?

As explained before, yes, Dumbledore was probably equally powerful to Voldemort, but Dumbledore couldn't vanquish Voldemort for some reasons, lets explore the events of the 1st and 2nd war and the periods before and between them:

1- Voldemort knew Dumbledore's power and feared him.

Here you have to take in consideration Voldemort's personality, we discussed it before in others threads. Voldemort didn't attack overtly most of the time. He used Guerrilla warfare en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare along with spies and treacheries.

It means that Voldemort never searched a confrontation with Dumbledore or let himself be caught in a vulnerable situation, it's seen all along the seven books, that Voldemort would never duel Dumbledore unless he is sure to win (which wouldn't save Harry either or anyone).

2- the first war started 11 years before the prophecy, which make it unlikely that he did nothing and waited for an hypothetical hero or pawn to save the day. He started the order which tried to fight Voldemort, but the members were dying ones after the others, like flies.

3-Dumbledore died trying the vanquish Voldemort, he died trying to destroy the hoxcrux, he wasn't waiting on his "arse" that Harry kill Voldemort.

He did what he could. He stopped Voldemort to take over England and delayed his take over for years, but couldn't kill him, I don't see why it's impossible to conceive that raw power and encyclopedia acknowledge can't always save you. Even more when "magic" is involved.

4-It's all to his honor to give others second chances. He doesn't start firing avada, which Voldemort is more likely able to avoid. Police doesn't start firing on bad guys immediately, they give them a chance to come along without fighting.
It's not like he was saying, well, it's either you come along nicely or I let you do what you want.
It's was you can come nicely or it's a duel, which as I said firstly, Voldemort never accepted.



As for the prophecy never been made, Dumbledore would have tried to fight Voldemort (like he did), but because he is older and doesn't have hoxcrux, he would have died (see above) and Voldemort would have won.

Jan 28, 2013 13:35:47 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Personally, I never liked 'love' as the 'power he knows not' and still don't. It sounds way too much like you could hug and kiss a dark lord into destruction, which is laughable. Besides, it's cheesy. And the way Harry was raised, he doesn't really know love, so how is he supposed to defeat LV with it? Sure, he keeps endangering himself for his friends, but to me it always looked more like he doesn't value his own life enough and thinks his friends are more important because they have family that would miss them. For me, it lessened the end of the story. And who says it wasn't the Hallows? Or the wand allegiance? (Not that that was any better) For me the whole end is pretty dissatisfying.

When I was younger I laughed at Harry's carebear's power like. lol. so I can understand skeptical view.

But while it's not hug and kisses that vanquished Voldemort, "love" really vanquished Voldemort. It doesn't mean power in the same meaning of magical power.

I will try to make it as clear as possible:

1- Lily's love saved Harry, it's not a power that Harry's created, but it still lives in him so technically he has it. And it helped him more than once.

2-Harry was able to touch others hearts in a way Dumbledore never did, Dumbledore was admired and respected, Harry was loved.
Harry was able to unit his allies and give them hope when it seemed that all hope was lost. That's his power.

3-Harry's selflessness saved his fiends again and again, created ties nearly indestructible, even when in the end, everybody thought that Harry was dead, they didn't stop fighting, when Voldemort tried to lie about what happened and told them that Harry tried to abandon them, they didn't believe him.
I don't know if you realize the importance and the deepness of their friendship and the love and trust that they share. It's because Harry loved them and sacrificed for them, that they were able to the same for him in return.

Even his compassion toward his enemy saved him, Harry saved Draco, which resulted of Narcissa helping Harry. I mean, Narcissa didn't know that Harry saved Draco, but when she asked him, with Voldemort and all the DE watching, Harry wouldn't be able to lie quickly enough and Narcissa would have seen his hesitation or understood his lie. Nagini wouldn't have been destroyed because Voldemort would knew that Harry survived.

4-what I find ironical, is people saying that Harry thought others lives counted more than his, but the fact is, if Harry chooses to let them die and not do anything and not risk his life, doesn't that mean that Harry thinks that his life means more than others lives?
And if you think like me, that all lives are equals, then, if Harry choose to save his friends lives or if he risked his life is matter of trying to help other when they need him, even if it make him in danger. Like he hoped that others would do for him
Like Kingsly said "wizards first, is one step before pureblood first". It's incredibly selfish to think only about one safety and ignore others that you can help.

5-Harry was loved, by his friends and Sirius and a lot of people. To love someone and open to him is a choice. Everybody has it in him. It's true that past experiences influence your conception of life and love, but there is nothing that prove that abuse destroy a child's capacity to love. Human have also endurance and can grew stronger form the most difficult situations.

6-the hollows saved Harry, yes, but for Harry to master them, he needed first to have love as power and be selfless, to be the master of the hollows mean that you accept death and use them to help others.
It's because Dumbledore loved Harry and tried to protect him from the DE, that he was disarmed in the end of book 6, it's because Harry choose to come back and save the goblin and showed mercy and honor that he fought Draco, got the loyalty of the elder wand and the help of the goblin in return. One could say, it's coincidences. But I see it as Harry good choices with a little help from above.

[Kitty279]

Jan 28, 2013 15:38:30 GMT -5 ayrine said:

Jan 28, 2013 13:35:47 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

IYes and no, even if it fitted Voldemort more "properly" when he was a "vapor", it could also fit Harry and Voldemort "figuratively" in a way that neither had a real life but were surviving (here it's the quality of their existences that is meant not the fact that they do exist), Voldemort obsessing over Harry and forgetting the rest and Harry stalked by Voldemort and living in perpetual danger and couldn't see any future for himself.

Voldemort may have been fixated on Harry, but that didn't keep him from taking over the Ministry, from building up his forces and all that, right?

1- Voldemort knew Dumbledore's power and feared him.

Here you have to take in consideration Voldemort's personality, we discussed it before in others threads. Voldemort didn't attack overtly most of the time. He used Guerrilla warfare en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare along with spies and treacheries.

It means that Voldemort never searched a confrontation with Dumbledore or let himself be caught in a vulnerable situation, it's seen all along the seven books, that Voldemort would never duel Dumbledore unless he is sure to win (which wouldn't save Harry either or anyone).

Right, the coward avoided Dumbledore - but does that mean that Dumbledore can't try to find him?

2- the first war started 11 years before the prophecy, which make it unlikely that he did nothing and waited for an hypothetical hero or pawn to save the day. He started the order which tried to fight Voldemort, but the members were dying ones after the others, like flies.

I was talking about the second war - where he did pretty much nothing until *sixth* year.

3-Dumbledore died trying the vanquish Voldemort, he died trying to destroy the hoxcrux, he wasn't waiting on his "arse" that Harry kill Voldemort.

So what? He suspected Voldemort was not gone for good in 1981 already, he knew about the Horcruxes since early summer 1993, but instead of using his Order to find the things, he kept everything top secret, and he himself did make his first attempt in 1996, so three more years where nothing happened. Even when he was dying, he didn't use the Order, but wasted time with storytelling instead of putting it all together and then train Harry, teach him to detect curses and the like. And he kept the most important stuff to himself which Harry only learned about by way of the most contrived coincidence you can think of. It was beyond irresponsible for me to never tell anyone. If Harry hadn't gone to look for the snake at that moment, Snape would have died without telling him and everything would have been for nothing.

He did what he could. He stopped Voldemort to take over England and delayed his take over for years, but couldn't kill him, I don't see why it's impossible to conceive that raw power and encyclopedia acknowledge can't always save you. Even more when "magic" is involved.

What exactly did Dumbledore do, save being there and waiting for Harry to grow up?

4-It's all to his honor to give others second chances. He doesn't start firing avada, which Voldemort is more likely able to avoid. Police doesn't start firing on bad guys immediately, they give them a chance to come along without fighting.
It's not like he was saying, well, it's either you come along nicely or I let you do what you want.
It's was you can come nicely or it's a duel, which as I said firstly, Voldemort never accepted.

What you missed is that I'm not talking about Moldyshorts here.
Second chances to murderers, yes. The good guys don't get second chances, they get killed. Look how he kept giving Malfoy free rein to try to kill him, it doesn't matter if some students (nearly) die in the process. We need to save that little brat at all costs, no matter how many lives it costs.

As for the prophecy never been made, Dumbledore would have tried to fight Voldemort (like he did), but because he is older and doesn't have hoxcrux, he would have died (see above) and Voldemort would have won.

I don't know ... if he had acted earlier, he'd not have been that old. Besides, if he can keep up with three important jobs at the same time, he's not *that* old! And the Horcrux doesn't make sense to me. He could have destroyed him the same way as before, and then gone Horcrux hunting if he had noticed he wasn't gone for good.

When I was younger I laughed at Harry's carebear's power like. lol. so I can understand skeptical view.

But while it's not hug and kisses that vanquished Voldemort, "love" really vanquished Voldemort. It doesn't mean power in the same meaning of magical power.

I will try to make it as clear as possible:

1- Lily's love saved Harry, it's not a power that Harry's created, but it still lives in him so technically he has it. And it helped him more than once.

And it's something which, according to the end of GoF, Voldemort now has, too, so how was that supposed to be a protection? JKR was so obsessed with it being an anchor to bring him back after that last sacrifice that she overlooked that Voldemort now could touch Harry. So for me it was just a plothole.

2-Harry was able to touch others hearts in a way Dumbledore never did, Dumbledore was admired and respected, Harry was loved.
Harry was able to unit his allies and give them hope when it seemed that all hope was lost. That's his power.

Sorry, but here I don't really agree. Harry may have been loved by a few, but by the vast majority, he was hated or vilified at every turn. To me the whole thing was beyond annoying - one moment he's the next Dark Lord, the next moment they expect him to save their necks. Only then they turned to him.

3-Harry's selflessness saved his fiends again and again, created ties nearly indestructible, even when in the end, everybody thought that Harry was dead, they didn't stop fighting, when Voldemort tried to lie about what happened and told them that Harry tried to abandon them, they didn't believe him.
I don't know if you realize the importance and the deepness of their friendship and the love and trust that they share. It's because Harry loved them and sacrificed for them, that they were able to the same for him in return.

I know that's what JKR meant, but remember - they had basically the choice to keep fighting or being slaughtered without resistance. So I wouldn't put that down to Harry alone.

Even his compassion toward his enemy saved him, Harry saved Draco, which resulted of Narcissa helping Harry. I mean, Narcissa didn't know that Harry saved Draco, but when she asked him, with Voldemort and all the DE watching, Harry wouldn't be able to lie quickly enough and Narcissa would have seen his hesitation or understood his lie. Nagini wouldn't have been destroyed because Voldemort would knew that Harry survived.

Always only saw that as a worried mother wanting to know if her baby was still alive - she'd have asked anyone. Can't completely follow your argument that Harry couldn't have lied so quick - it's just the difference between yes and no, or don't know. Besides, Voldemort then removed the protection around the snake, but we don't know if that would have been that impenetrable. The sword of Gryffindor could destroy Horcruxes, what about that protection?

4-what I find ironical, is people saying that Harry thought others lives counted more than his, but the fact is, if Harry chooses to let them die and not do anything and not risk his life, doesn't that mean that Harry thinks that his life means more than others lives?
And if you think like me, that all lives are equals, then, if Harry choose to save his friends lives or if he risked his life is matter of trying to help other when they need him, even if it make him in danger. Like he hoped that others would do for him
Like Kingsly said "wizards first, is one step before pureblood first". It's incredibly selfish to think only about one safety and ignore others that you can help.

*sigh* My argument wasn't if this view is right or wrong, but that it sounds more likely than love, considering he never knew love himself. You need to experience it to really understand it, and he never got a real chance for that, IMO. So to me the worth of others lives seems to make more sense as his motivation.

5-Harry was loved, by his friends and Sirius and a lot of people. To love someone and open to him is a choice. Everybody has it in him. It's true that past experiences influence your conception of life and love, but there is nothing that prove that abuse destroy a child's capacity to love. Human have also endurance and can grew stronger form the most difficult situations.

Again, you need to experience it to understand it, and his friends didn't exactly show love, more friendship to me. Sirius never got the chance, thanks to the idiots who imprisoned him, to Dumbledore who gave evidence against him without even hearing him and never tried to get him a trial, to Molly who kept the kids slaving away all summer - we never hear that Sirius and Harry got some alone-time to just talk. So I don't know how loved Harry would feel. Considering his insecurities, I have my doubts.

6-the hollows saved Harry, yes, but for Harry to master them, he needed first to have love as power and be selfless, to be the master of the hollows mean that you accept death and use them to help others.
It's because Dumbledore loved Harry and tried to protect him from the DE, that he was disarmed in the end of book 6, it's because Harry choose to come back and save the goblin and showed mercy and honor that he fought Draco, got the loyalty of the elder wand and the help of the goblin in return. One could say, it's coincidences. But I see it as Harry good choices with a little help from above.

To be honest, I thought it the height of idiocy to keep Harry in a body bind with all the Death Eaters coming. What if he had been hit by a stray curse? He couldn't do anything, not dodge, not defend himself. And the whole Elder Wand stuff was way too contrived. Besides, the whole concept completely disregards the rest of the books. If disarming changes the wand's allegiance, then barely anyone in the school would be able to use their own wand after learning 'Expelliarmus'. Add to that the Aurors and others who fight on a regular basis and it makes even less sense. Or that the EW was rendered harmless if Harry died undefeated - how likely is it that he's not going to be disarmed during the next 80 or so years?

Well, I guess part of the problem is that you accept how JKR wanted you to see it, while I tend to be more cynical and sceptical.

[ayrine]

Because there is too much quotes I will answer as I can:

1- Voldemort takes over England, and what he does?
he let his goons rule while he goes searching for a legendary magic stick to get back at Harry. Even with all his power that he is building he still obsesses on Harry, it consumes nearly every thought he has. He isn't free to live yet, it's like I see it.

2-Well, it's not like they can find him in phone directory, if it was that easy, the ministry and everybody could have found him. He can hide himself too.
Then again Dumbledore could abandon everything else to track Voldemort, and find him, then Voldemort would run away again or trick him into a trap. We don't knew if DD tried to do it before and failed (well we don't know if he didn't too). So I can't judge on this and I give him the benefice of the doubt as I can't prove that he did nothing. What I know and understand is that Voldemort acted cowardly and was always prudent enough to not make himself vulnerable.

3- 2nd war started 1 year before 6th year. He couldn't do much more than try to convince a maximum of people that Voldemort was back (so they could protect themselves) and search for the hoxcrux himself (tracking the persons who knew Voldemort, convincing them to him).

4- We discussed this part a lot, really a lot before, so I will just say, Dumbledore was flawed, is flaw was distrust, he didn't trust the order with this really important secret, no need to repeat it all (why he chose Harry and why he trusted him).
As for the hoxcrux search, it was delayed because Sirius escape (he was needed in Hogwarts) and the triwizard thingy (Harry needed him too), so he just didn't have time then, and he hoped that he would have more time to search for them in the future before Voldemort return.
Then he started the research in 5th year and told Harry in the 6th.
Why he didn't train Harry? No idea. Did he think that Snape teaching would be enough? Did he think that he would have few more weeks to explain more? Was he physically able to train anyone or did the ring's curse weaken him too much?

5-A lot of thing that we don't know about (not wrote in the books, Harry didn't keep tabs on Dumbldore's schedule) or else Voldemort wouldn't hate him or fear him so much and he wouldn't ask his DE to kill him.
If you want specific things then I suppose he opposed any DE move to take over the ministry. The fact is that Dumbledore's continual presence in the ministry would have stopped Yaxley's (it's him?) scheme. He would have several and repeated meetings with the ministry's worker. He would have unmasked the imperiosed minister and department's heads and stopped Umbridge's persecution, even if he has to duel the minister himself and wouldn't have let it pass without denouncing it.
Also with Snape's information, he probably was able to coordinate the Order and with the help of the Aurors, so they could protects some of Voldemort known targets and try to stop his acts of sabotage.
For the rest, he did what a man with limited power (he was in discord with the minister) can do to protect his school, insure that the ministry isn't run by Voldemort and search for clues about the hoxcrux.

6-Everybody got second chances depending on who is giving them (I only knew about Dumbledore), good guys dies, bad guys dies too. Everybody dies.
Draco was a student above all. A lot of students who were good guys got 2nd chances after big mistakes, students who nearly killed other persons too (we spoke about this too, as we spoke about Sirius case).
Because Voldemort is a prick, should we be like him? then what the difference between the two sides.

7-I don't agree, I said he was older, but I meant, in a world where there is no prophecy, Voldemort never disappeared in 1981 and he continued to be more and more powerful and would have eventually won. And no, Dumbledore wouldn't know about the hoxcrux.

8-plot hole or not I don't really care, if one can discard what he doesn't like, than it becomes fanon. Maybe it's awkward and not fully and clearly explained, and it seems contradictory, but it happened. I am not saying I understand it or it's perfect, but I can't say well, that not logical to me so I will ignore it and do like it never happened.

9- well, 3/4 of the students decided to protect him, when they could have given him up to Voldemort and saved their lives, after all they hated him and vilified him, how strange?
I am not saying that they never judged him wrongly or made mistakes, but you can't resent them eternally for things they did when they were young and stupid and overlook that they really were united in the end and tried to save him. You don't do that for someone you don't care about.

10- they could also save their lives. they could stop fighting and save their friends, family lives (except for the muggleborns and then I can see Voldemort accepting someone as smart as Hermione, he accepted Greyback, so why not Hermione if it's in his best interest?). They had a 3rd choice.

11- I don't think the sword would have been able to do it (why putting a protection then?), so was the protection just against curses but not against solid material or Venom? Voldemort is too paranoiac and cowardly to leave such an opening.
Narcissa could have asked anyone, but she asked Harry. The fact is Harry was in a situation where he needed Narcissa's help, and the fact that he helped Draco, made it easier for him to get her help. It's a matter of yes, no or I don't know, OK, but in a situation of stress and fear, it isn't easy to lie, and he would have had to lie, if he had let Draco die burning alive or killed by a DE.

12- I don't agree, for me Harry experienced love, maybe not at 4 or 8, but from 11, he was loved and he loved. I also think that friendship is a form of love, it's love (which it seems that we disagree about loo) and Sirius and Harry had deep bound even if they didn't spend a lot of time together.
More than insecurities, he was too independent. He doesn't want to ask for help. He want to prove himself.
And I just think Harry treats other like he want to be treated, he save other like he want to be saved. I don't believe he doesn't see his value or anything like that.

13- to be hit by a stray curse means there will be a battle and two sides fighting, but Dumbledore wasn't going to fight back. He made the best decision in that time. Harry would have fought and maybe got killed trying to protect Dumbledore who was weakened. It wasn't an idiotic move when you think about Harry's personality.

If Harry is defeated, he still doesn't use the Elder wand.
So even if he looses, the opponent won't have it too (it's still hidden), and if he is defeated in turn, and then the last one is defeated too etc. the track of the master of the Elder wand would disappear completely. So even if Harry doesn't die undefeated, it doesn't mean that it would turn badly.

Well, I guess part of the problem is that you accept how JKR wanted you to see it, while I tend to be more cynical and sceptical.

Well, you accepted that people ran around with wood-sticks and changed people into cats, dogs and pigs, but you can't accept that love can be a power and save people.

For me, there is no difference between the two, so I just accept it, yes, it's not like I can prove JKR wrong on her imagination or knew her character's personalities better than her. The most I can do is to ask her why there is things that are not adding up (I admit there is a lot and it's good to ask about them) and wait for her explanation (I won't go bending the story to my liking, unless I am writing a Fanfiction).

[physicssquid]

I agree and have a couple of things to add.
Regarding the Never can live while the other survives line - I totally agree that it isn't about them being able to exist, but about their ability to lead their lives without thinking of the other.
and
Regarding Dumbledore keeping the Horcruxes secret - it wasn't just that he didn't trust the Order, he didn't completely trust himself. Plus there was the fact that Voldemort was skilled in torturing people, how would anyone be able to hide their knowledge of something that important when they're being tortured, or if they've been dosed with Veritaserum, or having Voldemort rifling through their minds with Legilimency? He had said, at the beginning of the first lesson he gave Harry, that the fewer people who knew about the Horcruxes, the fewer chances there were of the information leaking. As for when Dumbledore was searching for the Horcruxes, he didn't know how many Voldemort had made, so he had to find people who knew Tom Riddle to try and find that out. It wasn't until Harry got the memory from Slughorn that they had a definitive clue as to how many there were, and most of the rest was just guesswork, plus for the several years between the proof that Voldemort had made Horcruxes being found and the answer to the question of the number of them, he had way too much on his plate to be able to dedicate a good portion of his time to searching. As ayrine said, in third year, Sirius escaped, causing panic, in fourth year, the tournament was going on, with Dumbledore as one of the judges, and in fifth year, he was busy trying to convince people that Voldemort had returned, plus figuratively, fighting the Ministry for control of Hogwarts, so the only time he would have been able to relly search would have been in the months between Umbridge getting him out of the school, and the battle in the DoM; the summer after that year; and in Harry's sixth year. I'm not sure how he could have done any more searching, and when he made the mistake of putting the ring on, he knew that his time was almost up, so he did the best he could to give Harry the knowledge he needed.

[ayrine]

I agree with above. It could explain some of the events.

As for the wands changing masters, that not so terrible because:

1-It only happens when you disarm others, and while not everybody is a good duelist and they can be defeated, most wizards try to keeps their wands until the end.

2-For the school's homework / Auror's training disarming, most of it was made between peers, which mean they took turn disarming each other and taking back and forth the mastership of their wands. Probably cancel the whole thing.

3-the change of mastership doesn't mean that the previous master can't use his wand, he only doesn't have 100 percent of its power anymore, but even 70 percent can suffice in most times, or he can't use it efficiently against the new master (the real disadvantage). Like Voldemort could use the Elder Wand to do his usual magic, he sure wasn't invincible, but it wasn't useless.

4-If one looses the mastership of his wand to a mortal enemy, he either will be killed immediately (no need to add anything to that) or he will be able to escape by overpowering his enemy (so he got the mastership back) or escape without his wand (he can't really ask for it back), and then he would need another one anyway.

5-There is another factor that enter in the equation too, the compatibility between wands and wizards isn't only based on the defeating. The wand chooses the wizard before he even uses it. So even if say Harry is disarmed and lose the mastership of his wand but still kept it, he still could use it at 80 or 70 percent of its power.

So really the issue of the mastership of a wand isn't really that important in most situations, it's matter only if it's used against its master. Other than that, it's just a little less effective wand.
And if like you suggest everybody lost the mastership of their wand once in while, then they are all equally disadvantaged.

[Kitty279]

Jan 28, 2013 18:07:48 GMT -5 ayrine said:

Then again Dumbledore could abandon everything else to track Voldemort, and find him, then Voldemort would run away again or trick him into a trap. We don't knew if DD tried to do it before and failed (well we don't know if he didn't too). So I can't judge on this and I give him the benefice of the doubt as I can't prove that he did nothing. What I know and understand is that Voldemort acted cowardly and was always prudent enough to not make himself vulnerable.

I don't know ... the way he keeps bragging how he's the best and greatest Dark Lord ever and wanted to prove it came over as overconfidence to me. And overconfident people make mistakes.

3- 2nd war started 1 year before 6th year. He couldn't do much more than try to convince a maximum of people that Voldemort was back (so they could protect themselves) and search for the hoxcrux himself (tracking the persons who knew Voldemort, convincing them to him).

And Dumbledore knew that was coming since 1981. I always wonder if he actually needed so much time or if he just waited for Harry to grow up before doing much.

4- We discussed this part a lot, really a lot before, so I will just say, Dumbledore was flawed, is flaw was distrust, he didn't trust the order with this really important secret, no need to repeat it all (why he chose Harry and why he trusted him).
As for the hoxcrux search, it was delayed because Sirius escape (he was needed in Hogwarts) and the triwizard thingy (Harry needed him too), so he just didn't have time then, and he hoped that he would have more time to search for them in the future before Voldemort return.
Then he started the research in 5th year and told Harry in the 6th.

And here the problem starts for me. Because he doesn't trust anyone, he delays the research for years and in consequence, it took too long to get it done.
Besides - you say he couldn't trust the Order enough to use them in the search. But the only one he trusts enough to tell him was the one at the very top of Voldemort's hit list and the most likely to be killed. I am sure to you that makes perfect sense, to me it doesn't.

Why he didn't train Harry? No idea. Did he think that Snape teaching would be enough? Did he think that he would have few more weeks to explain more? Was he physically able to train anyone or did the ring's curse weaken him too much?

Few more weeks? He had nearly a whole school year and managed what - three or so evenings to tell Harry stories? He could have condensed that to one or two days during a weekend and then taught Harry, if not combat, then at least how to detect curses around an object? Dumbledore found *one* Horcrux and got that deathly curse, was dying after that. Still, he didn't bother to tell him how to destroy these things, how to protect himself, and sent him on that hunt when he hadn't even graduated. For me that was irresponsible. What if the first Horcrux they found was even better protected and killed all three of them? You could consider that dying by Voldemort's hand, right? Then the prophecy would have been fulfilled and Voldemort would have free rein to take over the world.

6-Everybody got second chances depending on who is giving them (I only knew about Dumbledore), good guys dies, bad guys dies too. Everybody dies.
Draco was a student above all. A lot of students who were good guys got 2nd chances after big mistakes, students who nearly killed other persons too (we spoke about this too, as we spoke about Sirius case).
Because Voldemort is a prick, should we be like him? then what the difference between the two sides.

What has that to do with Voldemort? After two nearly killed students any normal student would have been expelled. You don't need to stoop to murder to draw a line what's acceptable.
Remember what Umbitch did? I'd very much like to know how much Dumbledore knew about detentions, searched post, attempted Cruciatus and all that. But still, nothing happened to the toad. But that's my problem with the whole series, everyone is allowed to do what they please. Harry gets high point deductions and a life-threatening detention for just being out after curfew, but what did Draco get for all his actions? Nothing. Draco was the bully, but Harry was the one being threatened with expulsion at every turn. So excuse me when I don't feel that they do their job properly there.

8-plot hole or not I don't really care, if one can discard what he doesn't like, than it becomes fanon. Maybe it's awkward and not fully and clearly explained, and it seems contradictory, but it happened. I am not saying I understand it or it's perfect, but I can't say well, that not logical to me so I will ignore it and do like it never happened.

So you are saying I have to take everything any author writes and accept it like the good sheeple of the wizarding world accept the rubbish the Prophet was printing, even if it's illogical? Any attempt to question something that feels wrong from a moral POV, that doesn't work for me or I see as a plothole makes the part I question fanfiction just because I think it would make more sense to do it differently? You seem to confuse 'discarding' something altogether and 'question the sense' here. I never said it didn't happen, I say it doesn't make sense to me! Besides, if I can't question something, then I don't need a discussion forum.

9- well, 3/4 of the students decided to protect him, when they could have given him up to Voldemort and saved their lives, after all they hated him and vilified him, how strange?
I am not saying that they never judged him wrongly or made mistakes, but you can't resent them eternally for things they did when they were young and stupid and overlook that they really were united in the end and tried to save him. You don't do that for someone you don't care about.

Well, its's been Harry who saved their necks every time, so they are used to that and would expect him to find a way out of it. I always wondered how many would have turned on him again if something came up afterwards that showed him slightly negative again ...

10- they could also save their lives. they could stop fighting and save their friends, family lives (except for the muggleborns and then I can see Voldemort accepting someone as smart as Hermione, he accepted Greyback, so why not Hermione if it's in his best interest?). They had a 3rd choice.

And you would expect them to trust that megalomanic mass murderer's promises? Hm.

11- I don't think the sword would have been able to do it (why putting a protection then?), so was the protection just against curses but not against solid material or Venom? Voldemort is too paranoiac and cowardly to leave such an opening.

Not sure myself, but remember, it was soaked in basilisk venom, and Voldemort didn't really know anything about it, right? I could imagine him protect his snake against a lot of curses, but why would he expect a poisonous sword? It could have been interesting.

Narcissa could have asked anyone, but she asked Harry. The fact is Harry was in a situation where he needed Narcissa's help, and the fact that he helped Draco, made it easier for him to get her help. It's a matter of yes, no or I don't know, OK, but in a situation of stress and fear, it isn't easy to lie, and he would have had to lie, if he had let Draco die burning alive or killed by a DE.

Besides Harry there were only Death Eaters, and I doubt they'd have told her, they'd have laughed at her predicament. Or worse, tattled to their Master.

More than insecurities, he was too independent. He doesn't want to ask for help. He want to prove himself.
And I just think Harry treats other like he want to be treated, he save other like he want to be saved. I don't believe he doesn't see his value or anything like that.

Doesn't ask for help because he is too independent, or because he has learned from an early age that adults are useless? His experiences at Hogwarts are the same - teachers or other adults won't help him, so he has to do it himself.

13- to be hit by a stray curse means there will be a battle and two sides fighting, but Dumbledore wasn't going to fight back. He made the best decision in that time. Harry would have fought and maybe got killed trying to protect Dumbledore who was weakened. It wasn't an idiotic move when you think about Harry's personality.

You would be right if Dumbledore could have been 100% sure that only DE's were coming. What if his watchdogs from the Order came running behind them and a fight broke out? What then? Curses flying everywhere and Harry in the middle of it, immobile? Then it's of no use if Dumbledore went down without defending himself.

If Harry is defeated, he still doesn't use the Elder wand.
So even if he looses, the opponent won't have it too (it's still hidden), and if he is defeated in turn, and then the last one is defeated too etc. the track of the master of the Elder wand would disappear completely. So even if Harry doesn't die undefeated, it doesn't mean that it would turn badly.

Remember, Harry talked about the Elder Wand in the middle of the fight, with hundreds of witnesses. And people knew the wand was buried with Dumbledore. What if one checked if it was put back there? Or found out somehow by watching Harry all the time that he put it back there? Voldemort obviously won its allegiance just by stealing it. That alone would have worked, too.

Well, you accepted that people ran around with wood-sticks and changed people into cats, dogs and pigs, but you can't accept that love can be a power and save people.

Oh, it can, but I have my doubts in this particular case

For me, there is no difference between the two, so I just accept it, yes, it's not like I can prove JKR wrong on her imagination or knew her character's personalities better than her. The most I can do is to ask her why there is things that are not adding up (I admit there is a lot and it's good to ask about them) and wait for her explanation (I won't go bending the story to my liking, unless I am writing a Fanfiction).

Then I am allowed to question the parts that don't make sense to me. But I'd like her to explain her way out of the contradictions she wrote - she probably won't be able without opening a few more cans of worms and making things worse.

As for the whole wand allegiance problem - don't you feel that JKR introduced that way too late in the last book, and disregarded too much of what was said before? The way she wrote it in DH, it's way too complicated, coincidental and unreliable to make really sense, wih or without magic involved. Either all wands are the same, or the Elder wand ist the exception to the rule - but it wasn't exactly said so. This whole mess with when it works how and why, together with the blood protection and the Hallows, made the end too much of a Deus ex machina for my taste. I always got the feeling JKR couldn't decide between these three and then just used all of them. Then add to that the way how they got Snape's memories and all that, and it gets a bit too much.

[ayrine]

Of course you can question things, never meant to turn you into a sheep , it's clear that there is a lot of errors, but they are in fact, only errors.
They don't change the message of the book thought. That what I meant. And using JKR laziness and twisting her mistakes into changing her plot and characters when knowing that she never meant it, is the fanon's plots I was speaking about.

1- Why would Voldemort risk it when he can can exhaust his enemies and take over them after? He didn't lunch a mega battle against the ministry, showing off that he was the best one in the playground, he used his spies and didn't even show himself after he got the ministry.
Like I said before he only made mistakes with Harry because he underestimate him, he doesn't underestimate the ones he fears.

2-Well, other than going to Albania with a magical vacuum and aspirate the forest clean from Voldemort, I don't see what he could have done. But go ahead tell me what he could have done to find and destroy a vapor who was hiding from him without knowing how he did survive in the first place.

3-Make sens if you are Dumbledore and you have the life he has. If you are Ketty or Ayrine, then you will think differently.

4-Probably was going to show him how to destroy it that night and experience it first hand what he was going to face. For the rest, ask JKR, I have no idea.

5-Nope, Dumbledore gave a second chance to Sirius when he was at Hogwarts, he never punished Ginny for the Basilisk's attacks, he let Harry got away with septum sumpra, like it or not, he didn't just protect Draco and we talked about this one too, I better stop here.

6-Well as it's impossible to read their mind unless I know ligilimency, I will give them the benefice of doubt and think that they were really with him. If you can prove the contrary, I will gladly give you the point.

7-You would be surprised of humans mind and the Length it would go to survive, if believing a killer can give them hope, it will do. (Stockholm syndrome, anyone?)

8-Well, he knows that his hexcrux are in danger and as there aren't that much ways to destroy them, not protecting them from the fire thingy or the Basilisk's venom is counter productive.

9-Didn't understand the answer, sorry. You mean that the DE wouldn't tell Narcissa that they killed her son? so what? Harry has 1 second to answer her question and I am glad he didn't have to lie and be discovered there.

10-We are influenced by our experience, so Harry is too independent because he always has to do things himself, doesn't discard my point.

11-Then he would have positioned himself between the curse and Harry. And after his death, Harry would be free from his bounds.

12-Well, people would assume that Harry keeps it and hides it with him and wouldn't search for it in Dumbledore's grave. Power-hungry people (the ones after it) wouldn't understand Harry's wise choice. Plus most of them would be too afraid tho fight Voldemort's conqueror and the boy/man-who-lived-twice.

13-To be honest I have more difficulty to accept and have more doubt about the whole magic stick / Latin incantations concept than the Love's power.

14-The truth is she didn't say anything from book one to book seven about the wands except "wands choose the wizards", and even if it seems rushed (I don't see the problem with being complicated, what do you mean?) it doesn't mean that it's more unbelievable than the rest of the unbelievable things in the books. Why should she choose only one of them? Why not the two in the same time? There isn't always a "One Sentence Answer". I find it more believable than Harry turning into Merlin reincarnated by the way and dueling Voldemort.