James' Parents

[Nahara46]

Who do you think they are? I'm led to believe they are not Charlus Potter and Dorea Black due to the fact that we are told that James' parents were old and died of old age between 1978 and 1981, and Dorea died 1977 at the age of 57, not of old age. (Considering Dumbledore died around 115)

[Miss Wings]

Thats a mystery as J.K admitted that Math's wasn't her strong point and so a long of inconsistensies are in the books.

[Nahara46]

Which is why I wanted to discuss it and try and come up with a canonical and logical answer.

[Miss Wings]

So if I search for him I might get James & Lily?

[Nahara46]

Er... What?

[Miss Wings]

I'm joking. I found the name and thought I'd show proof of an actual HJP. There's also a James Alfred Potter.

[Miss Wings]

OMG!! It turns out that there's a LOT of fake HP trees on Ancestry lol..

[Nahara46]

I figured at much.

Seriously though, what do you all think? Maybe Charlus is in fact James' half-brother? Perhaps a man with the surname Potter had a son- Charlus when he was around 20 (Putting his birth at around 1900, About when he died) Then the mother left, and the man did not have another child/take another wife for years to come. Then he had James when he was 60 with another older woman, when he died about 20 years later, he would be 80. Which is kind of 'old', while still young enough to have had a child only 20 years previously. I'm guessing the mother was a good 10 years younger, about 50 when she gave birth- a late birth, as described. I would guess that the father died earlier in the 1978-1981 window, and then the mother followed a year or two after. (Those whose partners die do have an increased likelihood of soon following)

I think this because it is said James' was a single child, and he could be described as such if discounting half-siblings. This would also explain why the surname 'Potter' appears with Charlus. Also, this would place Petunia as a closer relative to and giving her more legal guardianship over Harry.

[Miss Wings]

Half siblings are never classed as brothers or sister. Mum's cerainly aren't, they are just the other children that Nanna had before she married Granddad so the same could have been said in the HP world, expecially when you think about the time- B----ard children and so forth. Maybe Charlus was an Uncle of James?

There's another tree on Mundia.
www.mundia.com/gb/Tree/Family/41909771/19695716317

[Nahara46]

(BTW, yes I am rambling. That's how I work things out )

Yes, Uncle is a possibility, However, I am thinking that '80' and '70' is a bit young to be classified as " She was elderly, even by wizarding standards, and died from a wizarding illness." I think that 100 would be a more "Elderly, even by Wizarding Standards" in HP. Albus lived until 115-ish, and we can assume he was older then normal, a he was a great wizard,

So, we need a birth date closer to 1880. 20 years more. Maybe the fertility window is bigger for Wizards, but I can't find any good references for such... Even so, that would put James' mother at giving birth to him around 70-80, which just seems waaaaay to old to have children, even for a wizard. Anyways, that would also make James' father at about 40 to have his first child, which seems a bit late for the time period to get married and have a kid. (Especially considering he was part of a long, prestigious family that was expected to carry on. Why wait so long? He'd have connections and money already, due to the family line, so there is no need for him to take so long to build a career...)

[Miss Wings]

The only way that we'll ever tryuly find out is if JK does another book focusing on the Grindleward war.

[Kitty279]

Nahara, I came to the same conclusion that the ages in the family tree don't fit what JKR said, even considering her absolute inability when it comes to maths.

The other reason why I have discounted Charlus and Dorea is the chapter in OotP where Sirius and Harry were looking at the family tree tapestry. IF they had been Harry's grandparents, then Sirius would have said something or Harry seen it, and even if James had been blasted off, too, there would have been the hole to show that.

[Miss Wings]

Which would also mean that it can't have been James' half sibling as it would have had Charlus' parents wouldn't it? Or was it just those that married into the Blacks?

[Nahara46]

Kitty, I do agree that in reality it's probably just he fault of numbers in the series. However, this is my attempt to rationalize it without changing facts in the book .

Also, they fact that James' blast mark was not there could follow my theory. As well as how Sirius doesn't mention it- perhaps he never knew James' had a half-brother. After all, Charlus would be about 40 years older then James (of course, this is assuming there isn't a large age difference between him and Dorea), and maybe James' dad didn't have a strong bond with his first son- maybe bad memories from his first wife, so maybe James himself never knew, or it wasn't something he considered relevant.

This would lead to the question as too why neither Sirius or Harry mentioned the fact that the surname 'Potter' appeared on the tapestry, though this could be answered by how Sirius knew the complexities of Pureblood families- this Charlus could be a distant relative for all he knew, and not relevant. This can be further supported by how Charlus has no birth or death date, so Sirius could have assumed he was still living, which meant he was a distant enough relative that he had no contact or guardianship over Harry, or that he was long dead and no longer mattered. Harry wouldn't have noticed as he was engrossed in what Sirius was saying and too focused on the fact that Sirius was related to Bellatrix and the Malfoy's.

[Miss Wings]

Or it was a muggle Potter and the Black's didn't realize lol

[Nahara46]

Wings, I don't think that Charlus' parents would have been listed. After-all, Violetta Bulstrode's parents aren't, Herbert Burke's aren't. I'm assuming only those connected by marriage were added.

[physicssquid]

That would be interesting.

And as JK said, maths is not her strong point, so what if we discount the dates of birth of everybody except the main characters, i.e. Harry, Ron, Hermione, Dumbledore, James & Lily?

There are a lot of inconsistencies in the HP books as well as the HP Wiki, so I have been ignoring the information the Wiki gives, to make up my own headcanon.
In my Headcanon, Charlus and Dorea are James' parents, being about 39/40 when he's born, because they decided to wait until they were settled in their jobs before starting a family.

I have also wondered why wizards would not live as long as muggles, because they seem to have better healthcare than muggles, and their magic protects them from injuries better. I cannot see why a wizard would die of old age in their sixties or seventies, when there are plenty of muggles in their eighties and nineties. My great-great-aunt was born in 1904 and she lived until she was 103, so why wouldn't a wizard, other than the Dumbledore brothers and Grindelwald, live as long or longer?

[Nahara46]

Well, the blacks had pretty short life-spans, but that could be attributed to their use of the dark-arts and the never-ending incest.

And again, I agree it's probably that there is just a bunch of inconsistencies and that Dorea and Charlus were meant as James' parents. Doesn't stop me from putting logic to the test and attempting to make it all work out!

[physicssquid]

I don't think it would. The HP Wiki states that Bellatrix, Andromeda and Narcissa were born in 1951, 1952 and 1955 respectively, which does make sense, as does the fact that it states that their father, Cygnus Black II, was born in 1929, which would make him 22 when Bellatrix was born. Then it goes weird, and states that Cygnus' wife, Druella Rosier, wasn't born until sometime in the 50s, which would mean that she couldn't be their mother.

It also states that Pollux Black, Dorea Black's brother, was born in 1912, which would make him 13 when his oldest child, Walburga, was born, in 1925.

JK admits that she can't do maths, but honestly, I'm sure she could work out that no one wants to become a parent at 13.

[Nahara46]

You don't think what wouldn't? (Sorry, not following here.)

Maybe Cygnus married another woman first, and Druella was a trophy wife later on? Also, where are you getting the information on Druella's birth?

I do admit that the Pollux Black being Walburga's father is weird. He has another kid at only 17, fresh out of hogwarts... (And who knows when that third kid was born, what with them being blasted!) If I had to explain that, I'd say he was a horrible boy who went and raped a girl at only 13, but got out of it because of his money and status. Later he married and had two kids, but was forced to take the Walburga in when the mother died or something.... Would explain Walburga's huge issues.

[physicssquid]

Mar 25, 2013 18:05:04 GMT -5 Nahara46 said:

You don't think what wouldn't? (Sorry, not following here.)

Maybe Cygnus married another woman first, and Druella was a trophy wife later on? Also, where are you getting the information on Druella's birth?

I do admit that the Pollux Black being Walburga's father is weird. He has another kid at only 17, fresh out of hogwarts... (And who knows when that third kid was born, what with them being blasted!) If I had to explain that, I'd say he was a horrible boy who went and raped a girl at only 13, but got out of it because of his money and status. Later he married and had two kids, but was forced to take the Walburga in when the mother died or something.... Would explain Walburga's huge issues.

I meant that I didn't think logic would work, not with the figures that are given.

The HP Wiki is where I got my information about Druella. It seems to have been editted since I last looked at the page about her, so what is there now is not what I read originally.

As for Walburga. I cannot see a 13 yr old boy, in the 1920s, raping someone, but that is one possibility, though there is another. How closely related do we think Pollux and his wife Irma Crabbe were? I know, from looking at the family tree on the HP Wiki, that Walburga and Orion were second cousins, which is a bit squicky, but because there is no mention of Irma's parents, there is the possibility that Irma and Pollux were second cousins as well, maybe even first cousins.

[Nahara46]

Logic may or may not work, but I'm stubborn as mule and like to try the impossible

On Druella- unless there's reason, or a citation on her birth, I don't count it as a 'fact' that I'm trying to make sense of.

Yes, I supposed Irma and Pollux could have been related. But that doesn't really change the fact that we have to somehow explain Walburga's early birth. It didn't have to be rape, maybe he was just stupid and had sex too young and without proper protection, however I'm leaning toward the rape theory, because he was a Black and was probably educated young and had strict rules- such as don't be stupid. So when he got a bit hormonal, he raped a poor girl and threatened her with his power so that she wouldn't tell. Later he go stuck with a kid he didn't want, and the kid didn't grow up very well-ergo, her absolute horrid personality.

[Nahara46]

Here's a nice fanfiction that explored the Irma and Pollux debacle, and it seems like a pretty good idea.

www.fanfiction.net/s/8658951/1/Consequences-of-His-Foolishness

[Kitty279]

You know what I don not understand? As far as I can tell, this family tree wasn't something JKR made up on the fly in front of a camera (like she did, as I believe, with the Weasley family tree). So, even someone with her poor mathematical abilities should have noticed that these dates don't make any sense? I mean, I was horrible at maths, and even for me it's obvious after one look that these dates just don't fit, or they make some things even squickier than they already were.

Mar 25, 2013 17:37:53 GMT -5 Nahara46 said:

Also, they fact that James' blast mark was not there could follow my theory. As well as how Sirius doesn't mention it- perhaps he never knew James' had a half-brother. After all, Charlus would be about 40 years older then James (of course, this is assuming there isn't a large age difference between him and Dorea), and maybe James' dad didn't have a strong bond with his first son- maybe bad memories from his first wife, so maybe James himself never knew, or it wasn't something he considered relevant.

With the obsession the purebloods have about their families, I find it hard to believe Harry having an uncle wouldn't be relevant, even if the Potters weren't blood purists. Besides, why point out that he's related to the Malfoys and Lestranges, but not that he's related to Sirius as well?

This would lead to the question as too why neither Sirius or Harry mentioned the fact that the surname 'Potter' appeared on the tapestry, though this could be answered by how Sirius knew the complexities of Pureblood families- this Charlus could be a distant relative for all he knew, and not relevant. This can be further supported by how Charlus has no birth or death date, so Sirius could have assumed he was still living, which meant he was a distant enough relative that he had no contact or guardianship over Harry, or that he was long dead and no longer mattered. Harry wouldn't have noticed as he was engrossed in what Sirius was saying and too focused on the fact that Sirius was related to Bellatrix and the Malfoy's.[/quote]

In the whole family tree, only the Blacks by birth have birth and death dates, the married in people don't have any. So that doesn't say much about Charlus.
Don't you think if Charlus and Dorea were James' parents, Sirius would have used that to distract Harry from the Death Eaters? No, I don't think they are Harry's grandparents, but rather Charlus was some more distant cousin of James.

Another thing I find strange is that the Blacks nearly all have such short lifespans in this family tree, while I otherwise rather got the impression that wizards normally life longer than muggles. Minerva was about mid-60 when Harry started school, as well as Voldemort and Hagrid. Dumbledore was well over 100 and still not as old as a muggle of the same age would be.

This family tree causes more confusion than it tells us something. Am I the only one suspecting that JKR didn't write that promised lexicon so far because she realised how much she contradicted herself all over the series and the different chats and interviews and that it's nearly impossible to solve these inconsistencies without rewriting the series first?

[Miss Wings]

There's also a nice fic that explores the possibility of Charlus being James' brother. Is of to find it...

[B]

Just a tip - never trust the wiki. They like to incorporate movie canon as well as baseless opinion (especially in the physical descriptions of characters) and generally can't be relied upon.
I wish Jo would put back up her site, or a compilation of canon given in interviews.

[Nahara46]

I assure you I do not rely on the Wiki, while I do reference the Lexicon, I do check the sources.

Mar 26, 2013 1:13:44 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

With the obsession the purebloods have about their families, I find it hard to believe Harry having an uncle wouldn't be relevant, even if the Potters weren't blood purists. Besides, why point out that he's related to the Malfoys and Lestranges, but not that he's related to Sirius as well?

Well, Half-Uncle. Again, I doubt Sirius would be aware of the fact due to the large age difference between James and Charlus, and the lack of them sharing a mother- especially when James' dad may have not been close to Charlus, who could have been a reminder of his dead first wife. (Yes, I know, a lot of 'if's and assumptions. But that's all I got right now )

I don't think Sirius pointed out the fact that the Potter were there because Harry was already worked up about how Sirius was related to the Malfoys and Lestrange, how would Harry react when he learned he himself was related to such despicable people? It wasn't important, and would only make Harry brood and become upset, ergo Sirius didn't mention it. Also, the Black Tree we have isn't a full copy (Kreacher did say it went back seven centuries!), so maybe Sirius didn't even notice the lone Potter among hundreds of names.

Another thing I find strange is that the Blacks nearly all have such short lifespans in this family tree, while I otherwise rather got the impression that wizards normally life longer than muggles. Minerva was about mid-60 when Harry started school, as well as Voldemort and Hagrid. Dumbledore was well over 100 and still not as old as a muggle of the same age would be.

As I said, I believe that the continuous incest in the Black family as well as the dark magic use could attribute to their early deaths. Of course, that would imply Voldie should have died years ago, but there is that pesky fact that he does all he can to avoid dead.

[physicssquid]

Mar 26, 2013 17:59:44 GMT -5 Nahara46 said:

I don't think Sirius pointed out the fact that the Potter were there because Harry was already worked up about how Sirius was related to the Malfoys and Lestrange, how would Harry react when he learned he himself was related to such despicable people? It wasn't important, and would only make Harry brood and become upset, ergo Sirius didn't mention it. Also, the Black Tree we have isn't a full copy (Kreacher did say it went back seven centuries!), so maybe Sirius didn't even notice the lone Potter among hundreds of names.

I like that explanation.

But I still like the idea of Charlus and Dorea being Harry's grandparents, which is why, in the story I've already started uploading;

www.fanfiction.net/s/9105538/1/Hogwarts-Reads-Book-Seven,

I've chosen to go that route. I created, in OpenOffice Calc, a whole list of characters with birthdates and dates of death, plus a sort of tree, which makes sense to me but probably won't to anyone else, given that it's not actually a proper tree with dates or anything. It's just a mess.