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Post by RandomPasserby on Aug 24, 2013 10:15:25 GMT -5
I've seen a lot of fics where Harry being put with the Dursleys is illegal because James & Lily's will said to put him anywhere else and Dumbledore ignored that.
Except that totally ignores the fact Dumbledore left a 15 month old child on a doorstep and apparently that was the end of it. I can see that working in the Wizarding World but the law doesn't work like that in the muggle world.
As far as I am aware, and I am not a lawyer so this may be quite wrong, even children whose parents have clearly designated guardians who are the closest relatives in the event of their deaths still have to go through the court system to ensure the safety and wellbeing of the child. If the relatives were to turn around and say they didn't want or couldn't look after the child, I believe they'd go into care pending finding any other family members.
Clearly none of that happened. Can you really picture the Dursleys' going to that kind of expense (monetary and effort wise) to get legal custody of a child they didn't even want in the first place? Do you think Vernon would be able to keep his mouth shut about 'freaks' for that long?
We don't even know if Harry has a muggle birth certificate, or if Lily's death was ever properly registered.
So either the Dursleys acted majorly out of character and did things properly, they were basically living with an illegal foster child or Dumbledore faked a whole mess of legal papers.
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Post by Kitty279 on Aug 27, 2013 15:48:10 GMT -5
That's something we have been wondering about, too. Even if you leave the question out of the equation how illegai it was to send Harry to the Dursleys in the first place, I doubt the Dursleys would do anything that would mean bother or expenses, just to get Harry's papers in order. Though, how did he go to school when he legally didn't exist, so to speak? The most logical idea would be that Dumbledore faked the papers but does he even know what was needed and how it would look like? Somehow I rather doubt it. Besides, when did he do it? He came, took the baby from Hagrid, put it on the doorstep and vanished until Harry got to Hogwarts. When did he take care of the paperwork? Save it was included with the letter, there can't have been any. And can you explain when he was putting up that questionable protection?
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Post by blackroses77 on Aug 27, 2013 17:19:34 GMT -5
I think there was a significant time gap (almost an entire day I think) between when Hagrid picked up Harry and then delivered him to the Dursley's according to canon that would give him time to forge the documents. I think the forging of papers by Dumbledore is the only logical explanation and given how intelligent and cunning Dumbledore is I think he would make it a point to keep up with what muggles are up to. Also I don't think it's much of a stretch to believe he acquired many muggle contacts throughout the years to help with the documents, especially since Fudge had him so involved with ministry affairs, which would include dealing with muggle government and agencies, and he did go to the orphanage to get Tom which probably wasn't the first or last time he had to deal with the muggle foster care system.
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Post by SkullAuror107 on Aug 27, 2013 20:45:51 GMT -5
I have absolutely no experience with Wills, but every time I see that I wonder if you're even allowed to add something like that.
He can probably be brought up on child endangerment charges at the very least.
I'm not sure if that's exactly true. I was raised by my grandparents and they never had to go through the court system to obtain custody. There was no formal paperwork drawn up either. When it came time to enroll me in school they had no issues in doing so and I imagine there would be if there was a problem with it. But it could vary based on jurisdiction.
I sort of can. The one thing they want more then anything is to be normal and it's only normal to want to take in your nephew. It would sort of be like cutting off their nose to spite their face. They may not want him but they want people to perceive them as normal so they take him anyway.
There's also the fact that they may have felt threatened by the Wizarding World and therefore decided to keep Harry out of fear of what would happen to them should they get rid of him.
I've always assumed that the Wizarding World had to inform the Muggle world of things like births and deaths. The two worlds were quite close before the Statute of Secrecy came into effect. It's not like once they separated the Muggle world completely forgot their existence and magicals need food just as much as everyone else. Some of it is probably outsourced to the Muggle world. Because of this the Wizarding World is most likely included in the Census, and if that's the case they would need birth and death certificates and probably marriage ones as well. I imagine that the Muggle Liaison Office is in charge of all these things.
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Post by RandomPasserby on Aug 28, 2013 9:45:54 GMT -5
That's something we have been wondering about, too. Even if you leave the question out of the equation how illegai it was to send Harry to the Dursleys in the first place, I doubt the Dursleys would do anything that would mean bother or expenses, just to get Harry's papers in order. Though, how did he go to school when he legally didn't exist, so to speak? The most logical idea would be that Dumbledore faked the papers but does he even know what was needed and how it would look like? Somehow I rather doubt it. Besides, when did he do it? He came, took the baby from Hagrid, put it on the doorstep and vanished until Harry got to Hogwarts. When did he take care of the paperwork? Save it was included with the letter, there can't have been any. And can you explain when he was putting up that questionable protection? Most parents register their child with a primary school. That just requires a birth certificate, since the school would assume the Dursleys had him entirely legally if they could produce that. You can get a copy of a birth certificate from a registry office for under £10. The Dursleys would hate it, but they'd have to pay for it. (I'm assuming that Lily did actually register Harry for a muggle birth certificate, just because it's easier that way). Well that's just Crazy Prepared right there. Why would the headmaster of a school whose students attend it from 11 upwards and who can apparently be tracked down via magical GPS at any point need to know about the muggle paperwork needed for guardianship of a child in the event of the death of both parents? Because it's relevant to the plot, clearly. Parents requests as pertaining to guardianship do trump biological relation unless the guardian declines to or is unable to take the child. For the first 18 years of my life I was supposed to go to a family friend if my mum died, because that would mean I could stay where I was. I've never met my dad, so my mum wasn't about to send me there. I have one uncle who lives in France, another in New Zealand and because I'm the awkward in between child I was either much younger or much older than my second and third cousins who live in England. So, to my mum, me living with somebody who wasn't technically related to me but who let me stay in the same place, attending the same school and with the same friends was preferable to me living with people I'd never met but was related too, potentially having to move country. The statue of Secrecy came into effect in 1692. The first proper census wasn't taken until 1801 in the UK. National secular recording of births, deaths and marriages didn't start until 1837. That's long enough for all the muggles who remembered wizards and witches to die off, but not long enough for all the wizards to have. Muggles organising themselves and coming to wizard homes, wanting to know who was there. That sounds more like the sort of thing which would spark mass panic. Buying food from the muggle world doesn't automatically mean they're involved in the census. Especially for properties belonging to purebloods, who would probably have muggle repelling charms up (if not having the entire house unplottable a la Grimmauld Place). Some might, but those would be the ones living in muggle occupied areas which skews the entire thing. I don't doubt the wizarding world has its own kind of birth, death and marriage certificates, but I doubt they would be filed with the local Registry offices. Also, the going through court thing would be more likely in cases of suspicious deaths. What is more suspicious than dying with no apparent cause, a house spontaneously detroying itself (if that was what happened) and a baby somehow teleporting from the West Country to Surrey? That's pretty damned suspicous. |
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Post by Kitty279 on Aug 28, 2013 10:39:47 GMT -5
While I have no knowledge about how that is handled in Britain, I know that here blood relatives *can* get custody of an orphaned child, but they don not *have* to; sometimes the children go to someone else. The will of the parents should be taken at least into consideration and only ignored if whoever they chose is unable or unsuited to care for the child. Why would the headmaster of a school whose students attend it from 11 upwards and who can apparently be tracked down via magical GPS at any point need to know about the muggle paperwork needed for guardianship of a child in the event of the death of both parents? Because it's relevant to the plot, clearly. *snicker* Magical GPS? Love that! Am I the only one to wonder why Dumbledore should bother to make the Dursley's guardianship legal when he was ignoring their wishes anyway and controlling every aspect of the life of their ward? Your Mum made the right choice, IMO, btw. Sounds like you'd have been much happier with that friend than with any relatives you didn't know. As for the census - oh yes, I can just see a Muggle walking up to Malfoy Manor or a Lestrange property or Grimmauld Place and demand to know who lives there. (That's assuming they could even see the houses, which I doubt). They'd not survive that question! No, if the magical world is involved into any census, it would work differently, of that I am sure. Isn't there a magical quill which records the birth of every magical child? So, why not have a book somewhere where every magical citizen is listed? It would probably update itself automatically/magically with births and deaths. Don't forget, wizards are inherently lazy and do everything with magic. For them to have to go and register is too much of a bother, they'd prefer to have it done magically. As for going through the court - obviously, the Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot, Supreme Mugwump of the ICW and Hogwarts Headmaster is his own Child Welfare Service and has the right to decide over their fate and living arrangements, regardless of what every other person in their world wants. Who cares for courts that could thwart the Greater Good. |
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Post by RandomPasserby on Aug 28, 2013 11:53:12 GMT -5
While I have no knowledge about how that is handled in Britain, I know that here blood relatives *can* get custody of an orphaned child, but they don not *have* to; sometimes the children go to someone else. The will of the parents should be taken at least into consideration and only ignored if whoever they chose is unable or unsuited to care for the child. Why would the headmaster of a school whose students attend it from 11 upwards and who can apparently be tracked down via magical GPS at any point need to know about the muggle paperwork needed for guardianship of a child in the event of the death of both parents? Because it's relevant to the plot, clearly. *snicker* Magical GPS? Love that! Am I the only one to wonder why Dumbledore should bother to make the Dursley's guardianship legal when he was ignoring their wishes anyway and controlling every aspect of the life of their ward? Your Mum made the right choice, IMO, btw. Sounds like you'd have been much happier with that friend than with any relatives you didn't know. As for the census - oh yes, I can just see a Muggle walking up to Malfoy Manor or a Lestrange property or Grimmauld Place and demand to know who lives there. (That's assuming they could even see the houses, which I doubt). They'd not survive that question! No, if the magical world is involved into any census, it would work differently, of that I am sure. Isn't there a magical quill which records the birth of every magical child? So, why not have a book somewhere where every magical citizen is listed? It would probably update itself automatically/magically with births and deaths. Don't forget, wizards are inherently lazy and do everything with magic. For them to have to go and register is too much of a bother, they'd prefer to have it done magically. As for going through the court - obviously, the Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot, Supreme Mugwump of the ICW and Hogwarts Headmaster is his own Child Welfare Service and has the right to decide over their fate and living arrangements, regardless of what every other person in their world wants. Who cares for courts that could thwart the Greater Good. I'm fairly sure it's something like that in the UK, except that if there's a guardian they have first refusal, then it goes to blood relatives. Magical GPS is the only way I can justify the wizarding world being able to use owls as postal workers. How is an owl supposed to know where 'Number 4, Privet Drive, Surrey' is? If you can send somebody something by owl then you can track them down. That's what I said when I found out. Fortunately my mum is still alive and I'm over 18 now so all I have to do is call people. They probably do have one of those books. It makes more sense (especially since it's much easier to get rid of a body magically). Also we don't know if home births are a thing of it they go to St. Mungo's (which would then issue a birth certificate). I was mostly referring to a muggle court, which would have happened if the Dursleys had actually tried to gain custody of Harry. They would want to know where Harry's parents were. Who cares about proper legal process or the fact that the child in question is going to be abused. I was quite young when I first read PS and, in the manner of most fairytales, Harry being left on a doorstep made sense and Dumbledore seemed amazing. By OOtP I was older, more cynical and I'd had an abusive teacher. Leaving a child in an abusive environment for eleven years, even if every other action in the books had been absolutely unquestionably good, flipped my view of Dumbledore 180. I won't write him the way some authors do, as unrepentantly evil. I think he genuinely believes he's doing the right thing, it's just that he screws people over in the race for the nebulous greater good. |
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Post by Kitty279 on Aug 28, 2013 12:48:06 GMT -5
Actually, the owls seem to be drawn to the person, not the address, or how did Hedwig find Sirius after his escape in PoA? Harry didn't know his address, but his letters got to Sirius. So I guess the name is doing the trick. And what you said made sense, it's just the name that left me snickering. How many purebloods would even know what GPS is?  On the other hand, if it is that easy, how could the Ministry never track any of the bad guys down after they escaped from Azkaban? The more you think about the series, the less some things make sense. Same here. Though I was much older when I did read it the first time, at first I didn't question Dumbledore. But the longer I thought about the series, and the more my view of the old man changed, the less I liked what he did. Remember what he said at the end of OotP and beginning of HBP - he knew from the beginning that Harry would be mistreated, if not downright abused, but that was apparently in his eyes perfectly acceptable as long as he could keep his sacrificial lamb alive until he could send him to be killed. That, together with ignoring Harry in OotP and keeping him in the dark, costing him Sirius' life, was what turned the table for me. Not to mention his questionable 'training' in HBP - storytelling while witholding too many much needed facts (like the question how to destroy Horcruxes or how to check the ones they found for curses), but no combat training. After all, there were no Death Eaters around Voldemort who could injure or even kill Harry, even if Voldemort wanted to do it himself, right? And why should Harry learn to defend himself better, obviously hugging and kissing Snake-face to death was how it was supoosed to end. That annoyed the heck out of me. The old man had found *one* Horcrux and was already dying from it, and he still didn't think to teach Harry - or the trio - how to check for and maybe dispel some curses! How stupid can one person be? What if they had been killed by the first Horcrux? His secrecy made sure that no one save these three even knew that Horcruxes existed. Had the trio died, then Britain would have been lost. So, in the end, it was not just dumping Harry on the zoo in Privet Drive, but the sum of his actions (or inactions) that turned me against the old codger. He didn't care for the persons, only for his greater good. |
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Post by blackroses77 on Aug 28, 2013 16:31:51 GMT -5
What does being able to track them down have to do with them needing legal muggle documentation in order to go to school, doctors or get a job? And if Dumbles was a normal headmaster then no he probably wouldn't know about such things but he isn't a normal headmaster, the books made it clear that he had his fingers in many different pies one of them being the puppet master for Fudge, meaning he would make it a point to know about every branch in the ministry including the ones that deal with muggles, and as I said he is cunning and manipulative enough to make sure he had contacts in both the wizard and muggle world even before Harry showed up on his radar. Also given that there were large numbers of deaths in the first war and that Dumbles would have felt he had a right or duty to involve himself in everything he would have come across situations such as:
A) Muggle marries wizard, wizard has no other family so when both muggle and wizard die their child is given to muggle relatives, that child now needs legal documentation such as birth certificate and vaccine records regardless of age since they would spend the summers in muggle world, falsified school records if child is not yet old enough to attend Hogwarts.
B) Muggleborn student who's parents both die and is put in a muggle orphanage would need legal documents proving vaccination etc. and schooling records to satisfy muggle agencies housing them for the summer and false records stating the boarding school they go to the rest of the time, since I don't think Dumbles little trick with the papers in HBP was anything more then a temporary fix, it's just not feasible on a long term basis or for the number of cases, which again because of the war, was most likely a lot.
C) Muggle and wizard get married then separate for whatever reason and muggle takes children back into the muggle world with them, the child will now need a birth certificate, social security number, or whatever the British equivalent is (add this to point A), vaccination record etc.
All of these examples, and probably more that I didn't think of, means that there is most likely a department in the ministry specifically to deal with providing false muggle legal documents. Which brings it full circle to Dumbles knowing about which muggle documents Harry would need and using either a contact in the ministry (most likely) or a contact in the muggle world (still plausible) in order to get said documents.
And as for how it's relevant to the plot, well it's about as relevant as the original question.
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Post by ayrine_sun on Sept 15, 2013 14:03:52 GMT -5
hello, it's been a while, I hope to find you all well and healthy. I will try to add my two cents.
Ah, the legality of Harry living with the Dursley? it is IMO the same problematic as the legality of the whole MOM, I mean it's one country, two elected governments, one doesn't know about the other (for the most parts) and the second completely ignoring the first. It would mean that any dealing with the muggle government or it's officials, might be needing either forged document or temporary bewitchment. I imagine it's what Kingsley did when he became the 1st minister bodyguard, has an entire CV forged to pass the security of 1st minister cabinet.
Well, I don't see the problem with the forged documents, not if it's tolerated that the magical world is still hidden from 99 percent of the population and you can't do that without forging documents. you can't present authentic documents with the MOM sign in them, can you?
As for Dumbledore's, he took the only option he had,IMO, Dumbledore options were :
1- give Harry to the Dursley, which, yeah, he didn't have too.
2- let the ministry and in this case Crouch place Harry, while Crouch and most officials listen to Dumbledore, but it's only when it doesn't come against their own interests, and I am sure that Crouch would have wanted Harry in his home, it would have boosted his popularity to become the 1st minister. But Crouch own son, unknowingly to everybody else was one of most dangerous, crazy and faithful death eater Voldemort ever had. I don't believe Harry would have ended better than Frank and Alice Longbottoms.
That what pushed Dumbledore to do what he did, and I can say honestly, that while his dealing with the Dursleys left place to improvement, it was at that time (the panic that followed Voldemort first fall)the best decision.
Also, Kitty, for months now I have been thinking about what you said before. you know about the 3 questions:
1-why did Dumbledore let Harry do those dangerous things that involved Voldemort while he was a kid?
2-why didn't he involve the OotP in the Huxcruxes chase?
3-why didn't he train Harry for his dangerous mission?
After reflexion, IMHO, I believe that the 3 are related.
1-let start with why he didn't gave Harry a training?
well, if you go back and think about Voldemort life and his path in life, you see first that he is a manipulative, ambitious, egocentric, power hungry, coward. well, I have said before, how afraid he was of death, to the point to inflict himself the worst sufferance not only once, but 6 times.
Also, I believe, that Grindwald defeat at the hand of Dumbledore has marked him beyond anything in his life. he saw what was considered at that time the darkest lord, the one who was sweeping all the resistance in Europe and conquering country after the other, who seemed unstoppable, he saw that man, who was at 2 inches of the total and complete victory loose everything because he made the mistake to make himself vulnerable, he dueled another wizard and lost and spent the rest of his life in the prison he had built for his opponents.
that what made Voldemort we know, someone who will never take a chance and let someone approach him. It's clearly paint in the way he murdered Snape and ordered Dumbledore's,also, it's obvious from the end of his duel with Dumbledore in the end of the 5th book, how he only fought Dumbledore when he has the advantage, he nearly killed Dumbledore, and only failed because of Fawkes.
Now, you can see that if Voldemort believe that someone is a danger, than this person hasn't a chance to get to him, but then you have Harry, Harry who seems ordinary, talentless, who survives because other sacrifice their lives for him or because he is lucky, here the magic word is "Seems", and why Dumbledore never trained Harry, well he never did to the point where his potential would shine.
So, the only way for Voldemort to admit that Harry could be a danger is to acknowledge Love and its magic as a real weapon, but that would also mean that Voldemort choices and beliefs were wrong from the 1st go, that "good and evil does exist, that power isn't everything". That something Voldemort Ego would never accept.
and the truth is that no amount of training would suffice Harry to catch up with Voldemore, hundreds of wizards and witch, talented and powerful were decimated, mad eye, Amelia bones are example.
So Dumbledore was tethering in the edge of a fragile balance, teaching Harry enough to survive without really showing his potential and putting Voldemort on it guard.
And for the rest he trusted Hermione to help him whwn in need, in a way, it has always worked.
2-then why didn't he let the Order in the secret of the Hoxcuxes, well apart of the obvious not wanting to put all his eggs in the same basket and not in all the baskets, it clear that Dumbledore had to chose someone or few people,the less people aware of the Hoxcruxes, the less chances Voldemort has to learn about it. he choose Harry for reason I cited before.
but why he didn't choose the order, while I believe that the Order is composed of courageous and noble people, they lack of something really important, something that Harry has, the capacity of taking initiatives.
some examples, randomly taken:
1-Fudge and the whole ministry, McGo, Snape, the Weasleys and more people know that Voldemort is gone for good. how many people tried to understand and searched for the reasons? especially after the 2nd book, they had enough proof that not only tom's diary possessed Ginny but also was stealing her life, Harry said it int Mc Go and the Weasleys and surely Snape heard of it, but did they bother find a solution? even after Voldemort return, and the acknowledge of the connexion with Nagini, does any one try to pierce the mystery? well why would they, they have Dumbledore to save the day.
2- Sirius situation at Grimmauld, I am sorry, I disagree with most people here, yes Dumbledore didn't want Sirius to leave the house and didn't want to give him a mission, but who would blame him? not me. the most researched man in all England, he is more of a liability, so in his conscience he couldn't use him, it's his prerogative as a leader.
secondly what everyone seem to overlook (and see Sirius as dumb puppet who can't say no to Dumbledore) is that Sirius was aware of everything in the Order and was alone for most time. So let say Sirius was so sure of himself that he could do the Order's missions, why didn't he take the initiative? most work was spaying and collecting information on death eaters, apart of guarding the prophecy. He knew the target and knew as much as any other member did,why didn't he disguise himself and proved to Dumbledore that he was wrong? it's what Harry has been doing from 1st year?
3-again you could see they were all enchanted by Dumbledore. roll eyes. OK I will add this, after Dumbledore's death and Voldemort taking of power, the fall of Hogwarts and the MoM at the hands of death eaters, the Muggleborns persecution, the murders of hundreds of innocent and the imprisonment of the other. what did the order do? they hide and animated a radio's show lol. No plan to take the ministry back to stop Umbridge muggle persecution.
then Harry shows at Hogwarts and they are all, Harry what happening? what do we do? Hello, he is 17.
They just replaced Dumbledore with Harry.
that why Dumbledore didn't choose the order, he needed people who didn't hesitate on taking decision that won't back out while facing a danger and who would go to the end, he needed a leader and only found Harry.
3-why he let Harry go to his adventures. well apart of Harry needing to learn as much as he could about Voldemort, Dumbledore wished that Harry retain his ability to take initiatives, stopping him would squash it and he will be no different from the others.
In a way they got what they deserved, the intolerance and prejudice helped Voldemort.
they incapacity to act for themselves, got Dumbledore take all the decisions for them and as he is just a man, he made mistakes.
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Post by 19811945 on Oct 20, 2013 7:41:13 GMT -5
Since Dumbledore already knew of the prophecy, he could have already drew up the papers - just in case something like this happened to Harry's parents. So on this day, he could have pushed them through both muggle and magical governments as such.
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