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Post by fantasy on May 3, 2014 2:44:27 GMT -5
When it comes to trials, if the Wizengamot wanted to know if the accuse was telling the truth, is there a Potion or spell they could use that is reliable? I know there is Veritaserum, but that can be resisted by taking its antidote and Occlumency.
So, is there anything that is more reliable for gaining the truth?
Are all Truth Serums like Veritaserum where it can be resisted?
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Post by melodypottersnape on May 3, 2014 15:45:12 GMT -5
I don't remember anywhere in the books where that is actually said and I think occlumency resistance is fanon. They could make a magical vow to tell the truth though.
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Post by fantasy on May 3, 2014 18:22:30 GMT -5
I don't remember anywhere in the books where that is actually said and I think occlumency resistance is fanon. The resistance thing is on Pottermore or something. J.K. also said something in an interview about it being able to be resisted through Occlumency and the antidote, hence why if Sirius had a trial, they would have never used it on him for he might have been able to resist it. . I guess they could. I mean, they've got the Unbreakable Vow, so what's stopping them from having a truth vow? |
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Post by RandomPasserby on May 4, 2014 12:52:22 GMT -5
I suppose it depends on what constitutes truth.
Which is a toughie.
I mean Veritaserum can also be defeated by opinion.
So, for example, if you were to use it on a member of the wizarding public just post Sirius Black's arrest and ask them 'Was Sirius Black the Potter's Secret Keeper' then they could still say 'yes' because they believed that to be true.
I'm also unsure of whether Veritaserum actually forces somebody to speak. What they say might be the truth but I wonder if you could start spouting random truths such as 'the United Kingdom is approximately 243,610 square kilometres', 'William Shakespeare was baptised on the 26th of April 1564', 'dogs cannot see the colours red or green'.
Which is possibly why it's best employed against people who are unsuspecting or otherwise vulnerable (concussed for example).
On the other hand, they could just chuck the person into Azkaban for a week or so. I would think that would wreck Occlumency pretty well and they wouldn't have a wand.
There are other Truth Potions but Veritaserum is canononically 'the best'.
I can't see that working. The consequence for breaking an Unbreakable Vow is death. Which would mean the vow you'd have to swear would need to be utterly airtight so you didn't accidentally break it and kill yourself. Frankly, the wizarding world's legal standard does not instil me with confidence that they could do that.
Also, I can't see the pro-Voldemort part of government being willing to institute any kind of unbreakable-style truth vow if only because they don't want to fall foul of it themselves.
And again, that depends on what you consider truth. If you said something that you believed to be true but was actually false would you die? If you accidentally got something wrong or not exactly right (like saying you killed somebody at 4pm but you actually killed them at 3:20pm) would that count as lying? If you said something that is widely believed to be true but is actually false would that count as lying? If you attributed motive to somebody else but they weren't actually motivated by that ('I saw Joe Brown take a load of washing to the laundrette ten minutes after Sally Smith was murdered to wash the blood out of the clothes he killed her in' but Joe actually just felt like doing some washing at that point) would that count as lying?
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Post by Kitty279 on May 4, 2014 13:29:45 GMT -5
The resistance thing is on Pottermore or something. J.K. also said something in an interview about it being able to be resisted through Occlumency and the antidote, hence why if Sirius had a trial, they would have never used it on him for he might have been able to resist it. Feels like another instance where she is trying to close all the many loopholes she left or justify the inactivity of any law enforcement staff and Dumbledore by way of Pottermore. Besides, what use is it to invent Veritaserum if they can only use it to force a teenager to tell a pink toad something, but not use it in court? And why is it so strictly Ministry regulated when it's so powerful? It worked rather well on Crouch jr, who was supposedly one of the best Death Eaters. Somehow that justification feels a bit contrived. Personally, I'd say, search all suspects down to the skin to make sure they don't have any antidote on them, keep them in jail for a while until Veritaserum antidotes/neutralizer have worn off and then feed them Veritaserum. Or, to pick up an often used fanfiction cliche, feed them some potion(s) that flush all residue of existing potions out. Beyond that, you just have to put the questions precise enough, if necessary reword them so the accussed can't be too creative in answering around the subject, that might at least be enough to find out if they were guilty. And I could imagine that, if they really wanted to, the Unspeakables should be able to concoct something to weaken Occlumency shields. Maybe some charm or potion which makes it harder to concentrate and weakens the Occlumency shields? |
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