Your thoughts on Dumbledore....

[kumainpink]

When I first started reading the first book I'd come across, (Goblet of Fire), I really came to love Dumbledore. He was one of the coolest characters ever, and going through the earlier books seemed to cement this. That changed when I read through Order of the Phoenix.

The thing is, I know that no human is perfect. I understand that. But from Order of the Phoenix and onward, I started to become slowly disillusioned with the man. I truly loathed him by the end of Deathly Hallows.

What really cemented it for me was the sixth book. The way Dumbledore was using Harry bothered me a lot. I say that he should have taken the memory from Slughorn if he'd really wanted it. There was no need to make Harry do his dirty work.

What are your thoughts on him?

[RogueNya]

Well after the fact it is easy to see how he was not the Light Lord he wanted everyone to see, more so given how he manipulated the events that happened for a great number of years.

Though while reading them it is hard to see all that as you are wanting to see what happens next. So it is easy to not notice the chess board.

So while I like him as a person, I do not like him in general if that makes any sense.. I have wanted to tell him where to shove his "Greater Good" once I finished the books...

[kumainpink]

Jun 8, 2012 18:30:48 GMT -5 RogueNya said:

Well after the fact it is easy to see how he was not the Light Lord he wanted everyone to see, more so given how he manipulated the events that happened for a great number of years.

Though while reading them it is hard to see all that as you are wanting to see what happens next. So it is easy to not notice the chess board.

So while I like him as a person, I do not like him in general if that makes any sense.. I have wanted to tell him where to shove his "Greater Good" once I finished the books...

No, that makes perfect sense, RougeNya.

[RogueNya]

I am glad it did ^^

[G. Novella]

I think Dumbledore is such an amazing character. I do hate him for the way he manipulated people. However, it's like he said to Harry. His mistakes tend to larger than the average person's, and more costly. Besides, the betrayal of Grindelwald made him lose his faith in people, and thus, he became manipulative. In my eyes at least.

Dumbledore is the kind of guy that needed to do the harsher things to get the results. Manipulating people around him is part of his thing to get the results. Things like pushing Harry to get the memory was because he needed Harry to do something and get his mind of Draco. That's just one reason. Everything he did was for more than one reason.

I think if he hadn't been so manipulative, he'd never have achieved the best results. He was a leader, and more often than not, a good leader, is not a good man. I can name several real life examples, and fictional, if you'd like.

That being said, while I am against bashing, I don't mind Dumbledore bashings, but I prefer fics that lean away from Dumbledore or make him human. Not all out bashing. Just fics that make Harry aware and work around Dumbledore and make Dumbledore less manipulative after people stop listening to him, and make Dumbledore more trustworthy.

[viralic1]

I think he's manipulative, but I don't think he is evil. When I write my stories, he typically comes off in bashing as stupid, not evil. For example, if you check out my fic Harry Potter and the Power of Knowledge, in a recent chapter I had a team of soldiers from a company Harry owns in the story completely blow by the "traps" for the Philosophers stone. He's not evil, he just makes mistakes.

[sherza]

I hated Dumbledore from the first chapter of the first book, and had him pegged, pretty much instantly, as harmfully manipulative at the very least. Why?

He left an ambulatory 15 month old child on a doorstep. On November 1. With a letter.

My instantaneous reaction was 'W.T.F.'. Unless early November in England is body-temperature warm with no precipitation ... what Dumbledore did was literally criminal. Harry could have wandered off, been attacked by animals, been snatched up by Muggle passersby, gotten deathly sick or even died before he was found. He didn't even have the common human decency to speak to Petunia and Vernon directly, to explain what had happened etc.

After that, things just kept getting uglier and uglier. Traps a first year can get past, which a first year (Hermione) wonders if they weren't deliberately made that way ... WTH? Dumbledore never twigging to Quirrellmort. Never twigging to the diary, or that the monster was a basilisk, or, for goodness' sake, having the brains to talk to Myrtle about how and why she died. And then in third year we find out that Sirius was tossed in Azkaban without a trial ... and Dumbledore never did a thing about it ... and he had the power to. Double-doses of WTF on that one. And not recognizing that Moody wasn't Moody? GAH. AND we find out the ruddy old goat KNEW Harry was being neglected and abused. Quite frankly, at that point I was glad that Dumbledore wasn't actually real, because if he had been, I'dve been hard-pressed to keep from trying to kick his butt.

Honestly, when you put everything together, Dumbledore truly does come off as evil ... just not in the same class of evil as Voldie.

[Trilonias]

Dumbledore, to me, as always been a character who was too set in his ways. It didn't help that everyone revered him, which just made things worse. I thought a lot of the wizarding world was full of fools, which having magic to circumvent logic doesn't help. So here's a guy who has been given too much power/leeway to do things, and enables certain events to come true, simply because of how he sees things. Sadly, this leads to a great deal of problems, which includes letting Slytherin house get out of hand and ruining several lives through either inaction or neglect. Then there's Harry Potter.

It also doesn't help that he has too many responsibilities, some foisted, others willingly taken on, to be able to give the appropiate attention and gravitas certain issues needed. I see too many things wrong with Albus and most of the rest of the wizarding world. But I at least know he is trying. Very trying.

[My-Rebel-Within]

I do not hate Dumbledore per say, but all the things he did for the 'greater good' in the end made him a bit of a dick. Who would have thought that in the end Snape was the one to really do everything in his power to help to save Harry (Snape was not a hero, but he was a truly brave man), and Dumbledore was the one leading him to Harry death. I know he loves Harry like a Grandson, and I do not think he knew the full extent of Harry childhood abuse. While I understand his actions were only meant to stop Tom M. Riddle, it was at the cost of Harry's childhood.

I respect Dumbledore for his power, his leadership, his ably to see ten moves ahead, and his love for harry (because in the end he loves Harry like a Grandfather would, and he was rightful ashamed of the harm his decisions have made). One of Dumbledore's fatal flaws are he put the needs of the many over the needs of the one (he knows best, and his orders should be followed because he is only doing what is best for everyone. *insert sarcasm here*) and his obsessions.

I do not hate him. He overall was a great man. He was a leader that won the war, a war hero, but wartime heroes are no always good men. He was a very flawed man as it is human nature to be flawed. He was beautiful written the good, the bad, and the ugly. (The complex) I think every time you read the series you find out more about his character.

PEACE&LOVE

[viralic1]

While I don't want to hijack the topic, what are your guys and girls thoughts on Snape? Personally, I don't like him. Yes, he was a spy in the end, but he was still a douchebag. He proved time and time again that he genuinely hated Harry, and wouldn't have minded seeing him dead. Prime example was third year, during the Shrieking Shack incident, where he was willing to have two innocent men kissed. Then he insinuated Harry deserved to die. He needlessly bullied Harry, Neville, Hermione, and many others time and time again. Hell, he made Hermione cry just because she was willing to answer a question that he asked, in a classroom setting. He wasn't a spy using a bully as a cover, he was a bully using a spy as a cover.

[kumainpink]

Jun 9, 2012 17:21:38 GMT -5 viralic1 said:

While I don't want to hijack the topic, what are your guys and girls thoughts on Snape? Personally, I don't like him. Yes, he was a spy in the end, but he was still a douchebag. He proved time and time again that he genuinely hated Harry, and wouldn't have minded seeing him dead. Prime example was third year, during the Shrieking Shack incident, where he was willing to have two innocent men kissed. Then he insinuated Harry deserved to die. He needlessly bullied Harry, Neville, Hermione, and many others time and time again. Hell, he made Hermione cry just because she was willing to answer a question that he asked, in a classroom setting. He wasn't a spy using a bully as a cover, he was a bully using a spy as a cover.

I'm torn between liking him and hating him. He's a horrible person, but it's clear to see that circumstances made him that way. I hate how he treats Harry, and pity him for the constant misery that haunts him.

[Silvertongue]

For Snape, I hate canon him but love fanfic him (mostly).

[viralic1]

I don't think circumstances made him that way. Harry had a worse life than Snape, plus he had no friends, and he turned out better. Snape had Lily, Harry had no one. Snape bullied Harry, as well as encouraged Malfoy to also bully him. Snape could retaliate to the Marauders, Harry couldn't retaliate to Snape. There are many ways in which Harry had it much worse than Snape, yet he turned out fine. Snape reminds me of the spoiled people who go through a bad thing, and then use it as an excuse to turn into a horrible person. They aren't that way because of circumstances, they are that way because they choose to be.

[sherza]

Jun 9, 2012 17:21:38 GMT -5 viralic1 said:

While I don't want to hijack the topic, what are your guys and girls thoughts on Snape? Personally, I don't like him. Yes, he was a spy in the end, but he was still a douchebag. He proved time and time again that he genuinely hated Harry, and wouldn't have minded seeing him dead. Prime example was third year, during the Shrieking Shack incident, where he was willing to have two innocent men kissed. Then he insinuated Harry deserved to die. He needlessly bullied Harry, Neville, Hermione, and many others time and time again. Hell, he made Hermione cry just because she was willing to answer a question that he asked, in a classroom setting. He wasn't a spy using a bully as a cover, he was a bully using a spy as a cover.

Snape is ... complex. Yes, he was a douche to Harry, but it's debatable as to WHY. Because he resembled James? Possibly/probably. Because he was a spy, and had to appear 'bad' in the eyes of children incapable of perceiving more subtle signs of 'badness'? Possible. Because he was (understandably) bitter about losing Lily to his childhood rival and tormentor, and felt that Harry really ought to be *his* kid? Again, possible. Among other possibilities.

I honestly don't think that much of anything we see regarding Snape is cut-and-dried. We never once see things from his POV, see his thought-patterns or what have you. We only ever see them through the eyes of a child, a manipulative old goat, and his rivals. Even the memories he gives Harry are unclear as to his *true* motives ... simply because he might have, probably had, filtered the memories to be what was required to get Harry to do what needed to be done.

I don't entirely blame Snape for his reaction during the Shrieking Shack incident. You have to understand that he's dealing with a person who literally tried to send Snape to his death (Black) and the instrument of that possible death (Lupin) ... on a full moon night when he *knows* Lupin hasn't taken his wolfsbane. And they're in the same place that the murder attempt took place in! I'd have hexed the crap out of the pair of them myself, to be honest, nevermind mouthing off about having both of them Kissed. There's no proof that Snape would actually have done it ... he just *said* it. Was he a bit over the top? Yeah. But I really can't find it in my heart to blame the guy, given the circumstances.

[isk2837]

Jun 9, 2012 17:21:38 GMT -5 viralic1 said:

While I don't want to hijack the topic, what are your guys and girls thoughts on Snape? Personally, I don't like him. Yes, he was a spy in the end, but he was still a douchebag. He proved time and time again that he genuinely hated Harry, and wouldn't have minded seeing him dead. Prime example was third year, during the Shrieking Shack incident, where he was willing to have two innocent men kissed. Then he insinuated Harry deserved to die. He needlessly bullied Harry, Neville, Hermione, and many others time and time again. Hell, he made Hermione cry just because she was willing to answer a question that he asked, in a classroom setting. He wasn't a spy using a bully as a cover, he was a bully using a spy as a cover.

I completely agree with you. Snape might have been on the right side in the end, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a horrible person. I've always found it ironic that Snape hates the Marauders so much for bullying him, yet became a much worse bully than they ever were without seeming to realise it. The worst the Marauders are ever seen doing is picking on a student of their own age. Snape picks on children while an adult, which is far worse in my opinion.

Jun 9, 2012 17:34:08 GMT -5 sherza said:

I don't entirely blame Snape for his reaction during the Shrieking Shack incident. You have to understand that he's dealing with a person who literally tried to send Snape to his death (Black) and the instrument of that possible death (Lupin) ... on a full moon night when he *knows* Lupin hasn't taken his wolfsbane. And they're in the same place that the murder attempt took place in! I'd have hexed the crap out of the pair of them myself, to be honest, nevermind mouthing off about having both of them Kissed. There's no proof that Snape would actually have done it ... he just *said* it. Was he a bit over the top? Yeah. But I really can't find it in my heart to blame the guy, given the circumstances.

Regarding Snape's behaviour in the Shrieking Shack, I read a Reading the Books fic once (can't remember which one now) which made an excellent point regarding Snape's actions there - namely, that when he showed up there Snape didn't (as far as we know) know that it wasn't Sirius who betrayed the Potters, and thus fully believed that Sirius was the traitor who betrayed Lily, and that Remus was the guy who was helping him.

[viralic1]

And does he really love Lily? He called her a mudblood. Yes, it was in anger, but he still said it, after she helped him out. And he joined the Death Eaters, a group determined to murder, torturing, and slaughtering people exactly like Lily. Then, he even admits later he doesn't care how sad or in pain she is in, as long as he has her. He would have her child and husband in front of her eyes, but as long as she belongs to him, then it doesn't matter. He doesn't love her, he just wants her.

[sherza]

Jun 9, 2012 17:41:11 GMT -5 viralic1 said:

And does he really love Lily? He called her a mudblood. Yes, it was in anger, but he still said it, after she helped him out. And he joined the Death Eaters, a group determined to murder, torturing, and slaughtering people exactly like Lily. Then, he even admits later he doesn't care how sad or in pain she is in, as long as he has her. He would have her child and husband in front of her eyes, but as long as she belongs to him, then it doesn't matter. He doesn't love her, he just wants her.

While it does look bad, here again there are mitigating factors.

You have to remember that Snape was a friendless halfblood in a houseful of purebloods with a vicious agenda. Whatever his true thoughts on the matter, it would have been necessary for Snape to mimic the power-holders in the House in order to have half a chance of surviving amongst such ruthless individuals. He probably learned to use the word 'mudblood' and act Dark within his first month for those reasons. Whether or not he actually believed in all of it at the time of the incident, I've no clue ... but he was a teenage boy who'd been completely humiliated and then rescued by a GIRL. Some sort of lash-out was inevitable at that point.

As for whether or not he loved her ... honestly? Probably not. He loved the *idea* of her, certainly, and from what little we see, put her on a heck of a pedestal. He certainly remained devoted to her for his entire life, but whether that was obsession or something else, I've no clue.

[Animikokala]

Jun 8, 2012 22:29:06 GMT -5 Trilonias said:

Dumbledore, to me, as always been a character who was too set in his ways. It didn't help that everyone revered him, which just made things worse. I thought a lot of the wizarding world was full of fools, which having magic to circumvent logic doesn't help. So here's a guy who has been given too much power/leeway to do things, and enables certain events to come true, simply because of how he sees things. Sadly, this leads to a great deal of problems, which includes letting Slytherin house get out of hand and ruining several lives through either inaction or neglect. Then there's Harry Potter.

It also doesn't help that he has too many responsibilities, some foisted, others willingly taken on, to be able to give the appropiate attention and gravitas certain issues needed. I see too many things wrong with Albus and most of the rest of the wizarding world. But I at least know he is trying. Very trying.

I agree. Dumbledore was definitely too set in his ways; too used to keeping things to himself and disregarding other peoples' opinions. He certainly left an awful lot to chance in the end.

And some things he didn't do did not make sense: if he suspected that the diary was a horcrux back in Harry's second year, he should have begun searching for the other horcruxes once he believed there were more before Voldemort was resurrected.

[Animikokala]

While we're at it, I'm going to point out why nearly everybody in the Harry Potter books is a douchebag (in honor of one of my younger brothers who ranted for 20 minutes why Dumbledore was a douchebag after having read all the books).

Dumbledore - manipulative and secretive douchebag

Snape - bitter, bullying douchebag

Minerva - "enabling" douchebag - gives token protests but follows Dumbledore anyways, doesn't listen to the students or protect them (forbidden forest detention at night for a bunch of 11 year olds?!)

Tom Riddle - psychopathic douchebag

Draco - spoiled douchebag

Harry - malleable douchebag - spends most of the books being told what to do all the time by Hermione/Dumbledore/etc

Hermione - bossy, know it all douchebag - seriously, I love learning and all, but even I would have either strangled her or slapped her silly if I had to dorm with a girl like that for 7 years

Ron - "fair weather friend" douchebag - even if he always comes back, he shouldn't keep leaving in the first place

Sirius - bullying douchebag

Remus - "woe is me" douchebag

Molly - overbearing douchebag

Arthur - ignorant douchebag - if he really cared about muggles and muggle culture so much, he'd actually take the time to truly learn about them instead of just tinkering with things

Peter - backstabbing douchebag

There's so many more, I'll just end with those that I can think of offhand that don't appear to be douchebags.

Neville and Luna (and possibly) Ginny are the only major characters I can think of that don't have some major flaw that makes you want to do this: (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

TLDR: Wizards and Witches appear to be major douchebags, and should probably seek professional help.

[sherza]

I have to say, you do have a point. And Ginny is a stupid douchebag, if you want to go there ... she's a pureblood, knows better, and STILL wrote in the diary. WTH.

The only ones I'll argue with a bit are Remus and Sirius. Sirius' is mostly based on his past. He WAS a bully as a kid, no two ways about it, and he was still very contentious with Snape, but Snape wasn't exactly helping matters. Post-escape, though, he redeemed himself somewhat by trying to come rescue Harry from Pettigrew and championing Harry as best he could (wanting to tell Harry WTH was going on early in OotP, for instance).

From what we saw, Remus had a darn good reason to be all 'woe is me', but oddly, for the most part, he wasn't. Getting wolfed as a kid, and not being able to hold a job long/well enough to afford basic necessities like clothing that's in good repair, not to mention constantly having to be aware of where he's going to be around the moon, so as to not infect someone, and dealing with (from the sounds of it) mass amounts of prejudice from all and sundry would not make for a happy person. Yet the only time we really see him freaking the heck out was when Tonks first started chasing him, and then later when she got pregnant. He didn't really react appropriately, but freaking out about your kid possibly being born a werewolf is completely understandable. The rest of the time he seemed to just soldier on.

[Animikokala]

Jun 9, 2012 19:31:07 GMT -5 sherza said:

I have to say, you do have a point. And Ginny is a stupid douchebag, if you want to go there ... she's a pureblood, knows better, and STILL wrote in the diary. WTH.

The only ones I'll argue with a bit are Remus and Sirius. Sirius' is mostly based on his past. He WAS a bully as a kid, no two ways about it, and he was still very contentious with Snape, but Snape wasn't exactly helping matters. Post-escape, though, he redeemed himself somewhat by trying to come rescue Harry from Pettigrew and championing Harry as best he could (wanting to tell Harry WTH was going on early in OotP, for instance).

From what we saw, Remus had a darn good reason to be all 'woe is me', but oddly, for the most part, he wasn't. Getting wolfed as a kid, and not being able to hold a job long/well enough to afford basic necessities like clothing that's in good repair, not to mention constantly having to be aware of where he's going to be around the moon, so as to not infect someone, and dealing with (from the sounds of it) mass amounts of prejudice from all and sundry would not make for a happy person. Yet the only time we really see him freaking the heck out was when Tonks first started chasing him, and then later when she got pregnant. He didn't really react appropriately, but freaking out about your kid possibly being born a werewolf is completely understandable. The rest of the time he seemed to just soldier on.

For Ginny, I let the diary thing slide: after all, she was eleven. I know I certainly did dangerous things I was told not to do when I was a preteen and a teenager. Not listening to parents seems to be hardwired into a child's brain at some point while growing up. In addition, all Mr. Weasley said was that they shouldn't mess with something if they don't know where it keeps its brain: an eleven year old might believe they "know" where the brain of their new magic talking diary is. But yeah, I'm willing to think that she was at least a gullible douchebag when she was younger.

With Sirius, his bullying douchebaggery comes from the fact that he won't let his schoolboy rivalry with Severus go, not even for Harry's sake. He could take the high road and treat Severus civilly even if Severus doesn't do so.

And for poor Remus, while I do agree that he got a bad deal in life, there are multiple times in the books where he lets that drag him down despite the fact that other people value him. In addition, he makes no effort to actually get to know Harry; he could have made contact with him once he was eleven and made sure he was doing well. He's so afraid of rejection he doesn't even try. People have to come to him or get so in his face he can't ignore it.

[Point Given]

Jun 9, 2012 19:20:15 GMT -5 Animikokala said:

TLDR: Wizards and Witches appear to be major douchebags, and should probably seek professional help.

I prefer my characters with a reasonable dose of flaws. Hell, I could think of reasons why all my friends and family are "douchebags" if I were to nitpick their flaws, but I recognize they're only human.

As for Dumbledore, I never saw the reason why people think he shouldn't be Machiavellian in nature. I don't want some goody two shoes leading the fight; I want someone who can think on their feet and is ready to make the tough choices.

[sherza]

There's a difference between a leader being Machiavellian/ a tough bastard who can think on their feet and make hard calls ... and Dumbledore.

There is no reason on god's green earth for him to have done what he did to Harry in the first chapter of PS. Just ... none. Harry needed to be retrieved and kept safe? Fine! I get that, and yeah, it's really important ... but if Dumbledore could wait 24 hours to bring Harry to Privet Drive, surely he could have had Harry brought to Hogwarts ... supposedly the safest place in Britain aside from Gringotts ... long enough for him to 1) Deal with the Sirius situation and/or 2) SPEAK to the Dursleys himself. Rather than, you know, leaving a kid on a doorstep. On November 1. In England. The heck!

And maybe, yes, Harry needed to be raised/trained in such a way as to facilitate him dealing with Voldie when the idiot came out from under his rock again. Fine and dandy, you do what you have to do when war's at your door. BUT ... what Dumbledore did wasn't training Harry in any way, shape, or form. It was, as Snape so succinctly put it, raising a pig for slaughter. Dumbledore had NO proof whatever that 'love' was the 'weapon Voldie doesn't know'. None! He had NO proof that Harry *had* to sacrifice himself to end it all ... for all we know, there might, somewhere, have been a way to rid Harry of the Horcrux without the shenanigans Dumbledore pulled. Heck, if Harry HAD to die to get rid of the 'crux ... take him down via Muggle medical means (I've seen that avenue explored in fics), wait for the 'crux to bail, then bring the kid back. No need to have Harry being all martyrish.

Not to mention that Dumbledore ran a HUGE risk of getting a Harry that wouldn't fit into his plans. Harry could have ended up all a quivering wreck thanks to the abuse, or even worse ... gone Dark. Or just become an exceedingly stubborn, wary, mistrustful person that refused to do anything suggested by authority figures.

[Animikokala]

Jun 10, 2012 0:05:04 GMT -5 Point Given said:

Jun 9, 2012 19:20:15 GMT -5 Animikokala said:

TLDR: Wizards and Witches appear to be major douchebags, and should probably seek professional help.

I prefer my characters with a reasonable dose of flaws. Hell, I could think of reasons why all my friends and family are "douchebags" if I were to nitpick their flaws, but I recognize they're only human.

I agree on having flaws, but some of them are excessive. For example, Harry seems to barely think for himself at times; his personality is just so blah most of the time. Characters (especially the main character) in a book should be interesting; Harry's just not interesting except for in very specific situations.

And the douchebag part was in jest, but I figured since a couple of characters were being analyzed, they all should be

However, I definitely was not joking about the professional help part. Eleven year old boy ends up killing a teacher and faces the wraith version of his parents' murderer? He's fine, shouldn't need to talk about it at all. Eleven year old girl possessed by a horcrux for the better part of a year and forced to attempt to murder fellow students and others? Naaaaaaaaaah she'll be good! Students being forced to confront their worst memories by soul sucking creatures that are used as punishments for prisoners whenever they come near enough? It's okay, the students can't possibly have any particularly unpleasant memories.....

[Ericus]

Jun 10, 2012 8:35:55 GMT -5 Animikokala said:

Jun 10, 2012 0:05:04 GMT -5 Point Given said:

I prefer my characters with a reasonable dose of flaws. Hell, I could think of reasons why all my friends and family are "douchebags" if I were to nitpick their flaws, but I recognize they're only human.

I agree on having flaws, but some of them are excessive. For example, Harry seems to barely think for himself at times; his personality is just so blah most of the time. Characters (especially the main character) in a book should be interesting; Harry's just not interesting except for in very specific situations.

And the douchebag part was in jest, but I figured since a couple of characters were being analyzed, they all should be

However, I definitely was not joking about the professional help part. Eleven year old boy ends up killing a teacher and faces the wraith version of his parents' murderer? He's fine, shouldn't need to talk about it at all. Eleven year old girl possessed by a horcrux for the better part of a year and forced to attempt to murder fellow students and others? Naaaaaaaaaah she'll be good! Students being forced to confront their worst memories by soul sucking creatures that are used as punishments for prisoners whenever they come near enough? It's okay, the students can't possibly have any particularly unpleasant memories.....

Ginny visited hospital wing. and madam Pomfrey perhaps have education in psycology

Harry, is written as, that he is a small god thetefore hi isn't have that problem.

A usually boy/girl like you or me should be destroyed of it, but not OUR Harry.

[lrthunder]

Regarding Snape, does anybody else think the reason Snape treats Hermione the way he does is because she reminds him of Lily and how their friendship ended?

Finding out about his old friendship with Lily and how it ended did shed certain light on his treatment of Hermione.

[isk2837]

So Snape bullied Hermione, called her a know-it-all and made her feel bad for being knowledgeable and eager to demonstrate that...because she reminded him of Lily? Snape treating Harry badly despite his ties to Lily at least makes some sense, because Harry also has ties to James, and could be said to be a living reminder of James/Lily with his features that are a blending of the two (Which isn't to say that he was right to treat Harry that way, I'm just saying that I can understand what might be going on in his mind). But Snape treating Hermione badly because she reminds him of Lily doesn't make sense to me. If anything I'd expect it to have the opposite effect, since she doesn't have the ties to James that Harry does to get in the way.

[katiecleary1991]

Jun 10, 2012 13:48:52 GMT -5 isk2837 said:

So Snape bullied Hermione, called her a know-it-all and made her feel bad for being knowledgeable and eager to demonstrate that...because she reminded him of Lily? Snape treating Harry badly despite his ties to Lily at least makes some sense, because Harry also has ties to James, and could be said to be a living reminder of James/Lily with his features that are a blending of the two (Which isn't to say that he was right to treat Harry that way, I'm just saying that I can understand what might be going on in his mind). But Snape treating Hermione badly because she reminds him of Lily doesn't make sense to me. If anything I'd expect it to have the opposite effect, since she doesn't have the ties to James that Harry does to get in the way.

He probbly feels very gulity that he lost his bes friend that he could have avoided losing. When Hermione reminds him of Lily, he feels so guity that he could take it out on Hermione so he does not feel the guilt anymore. For Harry He could bully him for the same reason and becuse of James.

[biakit]

I don't like Snape, I don't care about his sacrifice and him saving Harry. For me he hold a lot o grudges against Harry and only saw James in him and not Lily so he treat him badly. Yes, Harry is James and Lily's son and yes James bullied Snape during school, but as Snape is the adult and Harry knows nothing about his parents (when he has his first class with Snape) I think that he should treat him just like he treats every other Gryffindor after all Harry didn't do anything to Snape. And Snape bulling Hermione makes me want to punch him! She didn't do anything so he could treat her like that! She has no relation with the ones he hates, so bulling her shows me that he somehow was treating her the same way he treated the Marauders treated him so I think wasn't only bullied by the Marauders, to me whatever the Marauders did to him he always retorted (I don't know if this word is right, I just googled it), so he wasn't a victim himself.

[isk2837]

Jun 10, 2012 14:06:52 GMT -5 katiecleary1991 said:

Jun 10, 2012 13:48:52 GMT -5 isk2837 said:

So Snape bullied Hermione, called her a know-it-all and made her feel bad for being knowledgeable and eager to demonstrate that...because she reminded him of Lily? Snape treating Harry badly despite his ties to Lily at least makes some sense, because Harry also has ties to James, and could be said to be a living reminder of James/Lily with his features that are a blending of the two (Which isn't to say that he was right to treat Harry that way, I'm just saying that I can understand what might be going on in his mind). But Snape treating Hermione badly because she reminds him of Lily doesn't make sense to me. If anything I'd expect it to have the opposite effect, since she doesn't have the ties to James that Harry does to get in the way.

He probbly feels very gulity that he lost his bes friend that he could have avoided losing. When Hermione reminds him of Lily, he feels so guity that he could take it out on Hermione so he does not feel the guilt anymore. For Harry He could bully him for the same reason and becuse of James.

Snape feels guilty...so he treats Hermione badly. I just don't see the connection. I don't see how feelings of guilt about losing Lily would cause him to bully someone who reminds him of her. If he's feeling guilt and wants someone to take it out on, then I'd expect him to focus even more on Harry, or on others like Neville, rather than bully the one who reminds him of Lily. I mean, wouldn't that just produce more guilt, to be upsetting a girl who reminds him of Lily, bringing back memories of when he upset Lily?

If Snape wanted to cope with his guilt, then I think it would make more sense for him to be trying to make up for his guilt by treating Hermione better than the other Gryffindors, or at least neutrally if he can't manage to be nice, than to go out of his way to make this girl who reminds him of Lily upset with him. I'd think that seeing someone who reminds him of Lily upset because of him would make him feel worse rather than better.