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Post by kumainpink on Jun 10, 2012 22:32:00 GMT -5
So many people have made rather valid points...about both Snape and Dumbledore. I tend to agree with his detractors, but those who support Dumbledore have made good points so far.  |
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 11, 2012 2:48:38 GMT -5
Warning – very long answer ahead, having to catch up after being away for days: I am right there with you, hon. And remember ... he had the Order guarding Harry. When Harry was supposedly protected by un-breachable blood wards. Which means that a) he lied about how impenetrable the wards were and/or b) some or all of the guards saw /exactly/ what the Dursleys did to Harry ... and let it happen. Probably on Dumbledore's 'don't you dare interfere' orders. I'll give Moody et all credit, they DID at least threaten Vernon and Petunia at the end of OotP, but ... yeah. That's always bugged me. Oh, don't get me started on these blood-wards. They were based on Lily's sacrifice – which in turn was based on her love for her son. So, how can they work properly in a house where everyone there hates said son? Wasn't it said somewhere that the wards hold up as long as Harry considers Privet Drive home? After he turned 11, he considered Hogwarts his home! Then there are the people who recognised him on the street long before that. They could just have grabbed him to apparate away. Either the wards only protected the house, then Dumbledore was an idiot who forgot that Harry won't stay in the house all his life, but had to go to school and elsewhere, and that the Dursleys couldn't protect him against wizards, even if they would. Or they were supposed to cover more than just the house, then they never worked to begin with. At least after the graveyard the wards should have crashed and burned. Voldemort couldn't touch Harry before, but he could after his resurrection. So, how were the wards supposed to protect Harry any longer? Over her eagerness to get that convoluted Hallows-Master of the Elder Wand-Sacrifice protection work, JKR overlooked a huge plothole in my eyes, and I never really understood how the protection was supposed to work after everything. Honestly, by the time he died, Dumbledore had a pretty damn good idea of what some of the Horcruxes were and where they were at. I'll give him leniency on the diadem ... there's no real way he could have suspected that one, without interrogating every single ghost in the castle ... and HE couldn't get to the cup, even if he knew it was there (though Sirius might have been able to, depending on how things worked) but that leaves Nagini, the locket, and Harry where they can be found and dealt with, with a bit of effort and thought. He couldn't have dealt with them himself? Really now! *nods vigorously* But that would have made it necessary that he got off his bony backside and did himself something more than pull the strings, and it wouldn't have left the Chosen one to do the whole job for himself. Please, where in the Prophecy was it said that Harry has to not only destroy Moldyshorts, but all the Horcruxes alone as well? Politics is a messy game. He could ask for Sirius to be tried, but why bother? Sirius was so set up to be a villain that no one questioned it. He'd already saved Snape which was questionable, and to go for Sirius when he himself didn't believe Sirius was innocent wasn't a good idea. Instead, as a leader and politician, it's smarter to save those favors for a different time. So you are saying that it would be asking for favours to do his own job properly? Oh please, then why have a Wizengamot at all? They are unnecessary, as politicians decide at will, and all laws are useless, as they are decoration only and not to be followed anyway. Besides, I see the chronology a bit different. Moldyshorts fell at Halloween, and Sirius was arrested maybe two or three days later, from the looks of it. Do you really think by then Dumbledore would have already used his influence to get his pet Death Eater off the hook? He would not have done it as long as Voldemort still lived, as it would compromising Snape's cover. So, do you think the moment the monster died, he raced to the Ministry to tell them how Snape was helping him? Before they even had time to round up the Death Eaters in the first place? No, I believe when he used his influence to get the greasy git off, Sirius was already thrown into prison for live without questioning and trial. So that argument doesn't convince me. Harry forgave him and said, yes, Dumbledore was right. Yes, and that was what killed the series once and for all in my eyes. JKR made one thing clear beyond any doubt: If you are used and abused, don't expect adults to help you. Just shut up about the abuse, no one is doing anything. Abuse is ok, as long as it is for the greater good. Just turn the other cheek to get more of the sort. And when all is said and done and you have lost nearly everyone you love, then go, worship the ones who caused you to suffer through a horrible childhood and everything is perfect. What is that for a message to send out to children? Besides, look at the way she killed off all these good guys, but had barely any bad guys die. Another great message: If you fight for what is right, then you are dispensable and get killed. If you murder, rape, main and torture, you deserve umpteen second chances and to get off scot-free, so you can go on to continue. And I am talking not only about the Death Eaters that got off after the first war, but about everyone else. The pink toad didn't get punished, Fudge was allowed to stay after allowing a dark lord to run roughshod over the society for a whole year, the Malfoys got off because lying once out of selfishness makes up for all the crimes they committed before. Frankly, JKR invented a wonderful world, but the way she handled some aspects of it make me furious. That's all for now – shutting up, at least for this post O:-) |
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Post by basketsarah120 on Jun 11, 2012 3:05:56 GMT -5
I hated Dumbledore from the first chapter of the first book, and had him pegged, pretty much instantly, as harmfully manipulative at the very least. Why? He left an ambulatory 15 month old child on a doorstep. On November 1. With a letter. My instantaneous reaction was 'W.T.F.'. Unless early November in England is body-temperature warm with no precipitation ... what Dumbledore did was literally criminal. Harry could have wandered off, been attacked by animals, been snatched up by Muggle passersby, gotten deathly sick or even died before he was found. He didn't even have the common human decency to speak to Petunia and Vernon directly, to explain what had happened etc. After that, things just kept getting uglier and uglier. Traps a first year can get past, which a first year (Hermione) wonders if they weren't deliberately made that way ... WTH? Dumbledore never twigging to Quirrellmort. Never twigging to the diary, or that the monster was a basilisk, or, for goodness' sake, having the brains to talk to Myrtle about how and why she died.  And then in third year we find out that Sirius was tossed in Azkaban without a trial ... and Dumbledore never did a thing about it ... and he had the power to. Double-doses of WTF on that one. And not recognizing that Moody wasn't Moody? GAH. AND we find out the ruddy old goat KNEW Harry was being neglected and abused. Quite frankly, at that point I was glad that Dumbledore wasn't actually real, because if he had been, I'dve been hard-pressed to keep from trying to kick his butt. Honestly, when you put everything together, Dumbledore truly does come off as evil ... just not in the same class of evil as Voldie. Lol, you made me laugh. Your comment has been one of the best I've read so far. I agree with all your points But I liked Dumbledore until I read DH. |
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Post by basketsarah120 on Jun 11, 2012 3:08:00 GMT -5
Dumbledore, to me, as always been a character who was too set in his ways. It didn't help that everyone revered him, which just made things worse. I thought a lot of the wizarding world was full of fools, which having magic to circumvent logic doesn't help. So here's a guy who has been given too much power/leeway to do things, and enables certain events to come true, simply because of how he sees things. Sadly, this leads to a great deal of problems, which includes letting Slytherin house get out of hand and ruining several lives through either inaction or neglect. Then there's Harry Potter. It also doesn't help that he has too many responsibilities, some foisted, others willingly taken on, to be able to give the appropiate attention and gravitas certain issues needed. I see too many things wrong with Albus and most of the rest of the wizarding world. But I at least know he is trying. Very trying. Dumbledore had too much power. And he let murders get away with too much. Especially Snape, since he was supposed to keep his cover as a spy. He did wrong by Harry too long. He had no right to ignore the Potter will. |
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sherza
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Post by sherza on Jun 11, 2012 3:17:43 GMT -5
Regarding Harry meeting wizards when out and about ... I got the impression that in each case, Harry was far from home ... at the grocer's or other such places. While I agree wholeheartedly that the blood wards are complete bunk, IF they had existed, they can't possibly be infinite in size, and probably only protected Privet Drive itself. Anything beyond that was probably fair game.
Which still makes Dumbledore unforgivably, criminally stupid, because as you noted, wizards ran across him and recognized him, and any one of them could have been Lucius Bloody Malfoy or any other free Death Eater and snatched the poor kid.
And I would be deeply, deeply surprised if Harry thought of Privet Drive as 'home' much past the age of five or six, given what he went through. He didn't have any other place to latch onto, unfortunately, which may have been the saving grace of the wards (again, if the things existed), but they *should* have collapsed like a house of cards once he got to Hogwarts and had a place to latch onto. And I agree that even if, for some unbelievable reason they *hadn't* collapsed before Voldie got a body, they'd have become utterly useless at that point, because as you pointed out ... he had Harry's blood! GAH.
You're right on the chronology ... Sirius didn't hand over the bike to Hagrid until a couple hours ... MAX ... before the book started. He couldn't possibly have successfully tracked the rat down before the next day, not when he had no clue as to where the craven coward had run off to. He probably had to track him as Padfoot!
Which, incidentally, brings up other issues I have with the chronology and events.
1) How in the name of HELL did Dumbledore have the *faintest* clue the Potters had been attacked?
2) HOW did Hagrid get to the house so fast?
3) What right, on god's green earth, did Dumbledore have to take Harry and control his placement?
And the prophecy only said Harry would have to make the killing shot ... it never said Harry had to face the bastard alone, nevermind do all the work himself (to answer that rhetorical question ;D )
Agreed on the abuse issues killing the series. Abuse in any form is ... something of a trigger of mine. I HATE it, and seeing it dealt with poorly makes me more than a bit ragey. *snerk*
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 11, 2012 3:31:46 GMT -5
Exactly, and then a wizard who could actually defend Harry if necessary would have been a better guardian than any wards. That man has not an ounce of logic whatsoever, really. You brought up another thing that has been bothering me. The only explanation would be that Dumbledore had put monitoring wards up - but if he wasn't in on the secret, how could he? Neither Dumbledore nor Hagrid were in on the Fidelius, so how did they not only know what happened, but get in at all? As Peter still lived, I don't see how the Fidelius could have been cancelled in the first place. And if they were in on the secret, then they would have known who was the real secret keeper. It doesn't fit with what we learn about the Fidelius later on. Why did Dumbledore send Hagrid, of all people??? Did he know there were no more Death Eaters around? Hagrid was expelled in his third year, for heavens sake, he was not a fully trained wizard and didn't have a wand. He'd be the absolutely last I'd send into a situation like that. Why did the oh so great Albus Dumbledore not go himself? Was he afraid to meet Voldemort or have to duel with some of his followers? Dumbledore had no right whatsoever to decide anything. He didn't even go to first check for a will or something, from the looks of it. He just played God as usual, as he thinks he can get away with anything - which he does. So, he can decide over the fate of the BWL, but not give a suspected criminal a trial? Again, where's the logic? While we are talking about that event - it doesn't even make chronologically sense. Sirius turned up just after it happened, from the looks of it. So, Hagrid picked the baby up at the end of October 31 or early November 1. But people had been celebrating all day, which had to be November 1. And Harry was abandoned there at the night from the First to the Second. So, how did Hagrid take a whole day to get the bit of way from Wales, where most place Godric's Hollow, to Surrey? What did they do with the baby during the day? How could Minerva wait there if she didn't know anything for sure? It just doesn't make sense to me. He wasn't a spy using a bully as a cover, he was a bully using a spy as a cover. Best description ever Now I am not a fan of espionage novels, but IMO a spy is supposed to blend in. But Snape stood out like a sore thumb. If nearly everyone save Dumbledore thought him to be still a Death Eater and only Dumbledore's word kept him where he was, he did a very poor job of acting the spy, to put it mildly. For me being a spy doesn't excuse his behaviour. I mean, from Voldy's POV Snape should convince Dumbledore that he's reformed. So, why does he need to bully and torture three quarters of the school and blatantly favourite the sons of Death Eaters? For me that screams "still a Death Eater", and I'd not trust him any further than I can throw him. If that's how a spy works, then they would be so easy to discover that they are pretty much useless. |
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Post by basketsarah120 on Jun 11, 2012 3:42:25 GMT -5
That would be where examining wands for spells, medical exams, and suchlike things came in, yes? In a logical system of any sort? Witnesses can and do prove their reliability as such via various means. Name me one thing ... just ONE ... that we see in OotP aside from Dumbledore's convo with Fudge during Harry's trial that showed Dumbledore attempting to defend himself and/or Harry from all the rumormongering and allegations. Dumbledore did NOT love Harry. Flat out, no. If he did, he wouldn't have left the kid ON A DOORSTEP. Or kept him pig-ignorant of everything. Or returned him to an abusive home that he damn well KNEW was abusive, via whatever means. Or completely ignored the kid without explaining jack all of fifth year, leaving said poor kid to come up with worst-case scenarios about it. There is no kindly, grandfatherly old man anywhere to be found, at all. Just a manipulative old coot. I agree that Dumbledore didn't love Harry. All he cared about was getting his way, and having Harry sacrifice himself. He didn't think, and Harry could've turned dark because of the Dursleys.. I kind of wish it did backfire on him. He would deserve it. I think he would've wanted the credit for defeating Voldemort, once Harry was "dead". |
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jun 11, 2012 3:51:53 GMT -5
Exactly ... how'd they know? Drives me batty.
Regarding sending Hagrid ... just remember what happened in OotP, when the Aurors came for him. Four men, raining spells down on Hagrid, and he shook them off like water off a duck's back. He might not be able to cast spells, but he's nigh-invulnerable to magic, and hella strong. NOT someone I'd want to cross, under any circumstances. In that and that alone, Harry was in fairly good hands. Not the best, because as you pointed out, Dumbledore could have gone, but it's better than many other choices Dumbles could have made.
Regarding the timing, I think it works out thusly, starting very late Halloween night
Hour 1: Pettigrew goes to Voldie and tattles on the Potters.
Hour 1.25: Voldie goes and kills the Potters. Dumbledore somehow knows this.
Hour 1.5: Black goes to check on Pettigrew, finds him missing, and immediately heads for the Potters. Finds and retrieves Harry.
Hour 2: Hagrid arrives and takes Harry and the bike from Sirius.
Hour ?: McGonagall arrives at Privet Drive to observe the Dursleys for god-knows-what reason, given she didn't know the Potters were dead.
Hour 20+: Dumbledore and Hagrid arrive at Privet Drive. (based on McGonagall having observed them for a day).
The time it takes for Hagrid to get to Privet Drive makes NO sense, given it takes roughly seven to eight hours to get from London to Hogwarts in the Scotland Highlands (which is pretty close to being the entire length of the UK). At most, you can add two, maybe three hours of travel time to get from the furthest point to furthest point, which Hagrid clearly didn't have to do.
The only possible explanation is Hagrid taking Harry to Hogwarts for Pomphrey to heal him, in which case we have quadruple doses of fail going on, because surely Harry could have stayed there a day or two? The kids wouldn't exactly have been attending classes, surely, not with the celebratory atmosphere ... any teacher worth their salt would know better than to try under those circumstances. And if Harry WAS brought to Pomphrey to heal ... surely she noticed *something* freaky about the scar? And if she couldn't figure it out, surely she'dve had the wit to ask a more trained Healer from St. Mungo's to take a look? Which, if THAT happened, means that Dumbledore knew from the start that Harry was a 'crux, which abruptly makes *everything* he did that night and later make sense, if you run on the 'Dumbledore is evil' theory (which I at least partially subsrcibe to, certainly!)
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Post by vlcrawford on Jun 11, 2012 3:54:33 GMT -5
I want to know why the old coot waited till Harry's six years to even start searching for the way Voldy kept himself alive. I mean those memories he had for decades so why didn't the old fool do something so that even if Harry had to defeat Voldy he could have done it like when Quirrel was possessed as far as Dumbles knew. Unless he knew from the very beginning that Harry was a horcrux and if he did why didn't he try to use the supposedly brains to find a way to get rid of it while Voldy was weak and defenseless. And if he knew Harry would survive being hit after the graveyard why didn't he let the AK hit in in the Ministry and have it out of the way?
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 11, 2012 3:55:25 GMT -5
Dumbledore knew how Riddle, who grew up unloved, turned against the ones who made his childhood bad. So, why did he send Harry to the Dursleys in the first place? Did he really not know how they were? What he said in OotP implies otherwise. And later on, he must have known a lot - how Harry was rescued in CoS, the Marge incident ... and still, he sent him back, trusting that he would still turn out the meek sacrificial lamb? Did he never expect that there could be a breaking point where Harry would stop being just that and turn against all the people who made his life hell? Particularly knowing how he was ostracized at school, too? Either the man has no psychological knowledge, or he's basing the fate of the wizarding world on the outcome of Russian Roulette.
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Post by basketsarah120 on Jun 11, 2012 3:57:35 GMT -5
Warning – very long answer ahead, having to catch up after being away for days: I am right there with you, hon. And remember ... he had the Order guarding Harry. When Harry was supposedly protected by un-breachable blood wards. Which means that a) he lied about how impenetrable the wards were and/or b) some or all of the guards saw /exactly/ what the Dursleys did to Harry ... and let it happen. Probably on Dumbledore's 'don't you dare interfere' orders. I'll give Moody et all credit, they DID at least threaten Vernon and Petunia at the end of OotP, but ... yeah. That's always bugged me. Oh, don't get me started on these blood-wards. They were based on Lily's sacrifice – which in turn was based on her love for her son. So, how can they work properly in a house where everyone there hates said son? Wasn't it said somewhere that the wards hold up as long as Harry considers Privet Drive home? After he turned 11, he considered Hogwarts his home! Then there are the people who recognised him on the street long before that. They could just have grabbed him to apparate away. Either the wards only protected the house, then Dumbledore was an idiot who forgot that Harry won't stay in the house all his life, but had to go to school and elsewhere, and that the Dursleys couldn't protect him against wizards, even if they would. Or they were supposed to cover more than just the house, then they never worked to begin with. At least after the graveyard the wards should have crashed and burned. Voldemort couldn't touch Harry before, but he could after his resurrection. So, how were the wards supposed to protect Harry any longer? Over her eagerness to get that convoluted Hallows-Master of the Elder Wand-Sacrifice protection work, JKR overlooked a huge plothole in my eyes, and I never really understood how the protection was supposed to work after everything. *nods vigorously* But that would have made it necessary that he got off his bony backside and did himself something more than pull the strings, and it wouldn't have left the Chosen one to do the whole job for himself. Please, where in the Prophecy was it said that Harry has to not only destroy Moldyshorts, but all the Horcruxes alone as well? So you are saying that it would be asking for favours to do his own job properly? Oh please, then why have a Wizengamot at all? They are unnecessary, as politicians decide at will, and all laws are useless, as they are decoration only and not to be followed anyway. Besides, I see the chronology a bit different. Moldyshorts fell at Halloween, and Sirius was arrested maybe two or three days later, from the looks of it. Do you really think by then Dumbledore would have already used his influence to get his pet Death Eater off the hook? He would not have done it as long as Voldemort still lived, as it would compromising Snape's cover. So, do you think the moment the monster died, he raced to the Ministry to tell them how Snape was helping him? Before they even had time to round up the Death Eaters in the first place? No, I believe when he used his influence to get the greasy git off, Sirius was already thrown into prison for live without questioning and trial. So that argument doesn't convince me. Besides, look at the way she killed off all these good guys, but had barely any bad guys die. Another great message: If you fight for what is right, then you are dispensable and get killed. If you murder, rape, main and torture, you deserve umpteen second chances and to get off scot-free, so you can go on to continue. And I am talking not only about the Death Eaters that got off after the first war, but about everyone else. The pink toad didn't get punished, Fudge was allowed to stay after allowing a dark lord to run roughshod over the society for a whole year, the Malfoys got off because lying once out of selfishness makes up for all the crimes they committed before. Frankly, JKR invented a wonderful world, but the way she handled some aspects of it make me furious. That's all for now – shutting up, at least for this post O:-) Lol, the blood-wards are stupid and didn't work. We agree on many things about the plot hole where JKR is concerned. And totally agree with the Malfoy point, and what JKR tried to say and the message. But we've talked about this many times. Hi buddy |
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jun 11, 2012 4:00:26 GMT -5
I agree with both of you wholeheartedly. ;D
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 11, 2012 4:03:49 GMT -5
Hm, yes, Hagrid could take a bit more than the average wizard, but even he could be outnumbered. And the Death Eaters would not bother with stunners, they would send an Avada Kedavra. I doubt Hagrid would be immune to it. So, still not a good choice.
That chronology makes sense, but it still doesn't explain where Harry was all the time, yes. You are right about Poppy Pomfrey, too. Btw, if Harry was brought there, why did Minerva not know what happened?
And that's why it is so easy to see Dumbledore as manipulative to the point of being evil. Some of his actions are just too questionable to see him as a good guy.
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Post by vlcrawford on Jun 11, 2012 4:06:13 GMT -5
And as for Snape the man wasn't brave but a sneaky coward. He was bowing to two masters so he would come out on top no matter what. He was just stupid enough to trust to mean even more sneaky and even heartless than him and they both betrayed him, which he deserved after being the cause of two families being destroyed andleaving two babies to be raised in abusive households without their parents. And that bull malarky about him loving Lily was the biggest pile of dragon shite I ever heard. If you had loved somebody enough to vow to do anything to protect her than you wouldn't do everything in your power to verbally abuse the one person she loved enough to sacrifice her life for. You would want to help that child and not like he did in the book. Really what sacrifices did the man make to protect him. He mumbled a counter- curse why he sat on his bacside. Woowee! He put a sword in a frozen lake. Oh Merlin the dangers he faced! And even only told Harrythe supposedly big thing he was suppose to after he was dying. I mean the man ran or flew away with his tail between his legs when he knew Harry was in the castle. Oh I could go on for chapters on my hatred of Snape.
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Post by basketsarah120 on Jun 11, 2012 4:08:11 GMT -5
I agree where was Harry during that time?
Snape I hate with a passion. He got away with way too much, and became a worse bully then the Marauders. I think a reason Snape picked on Neville too is because in some way, shape, or form, he blamed Neville for Voldemort killing Lily. I know it doesn't make sense why in a way he would blame Neville. I see it as he thinks Voldemort should've gone after Neville instead of the Potters. When the blame should go on him for telling the prophecy to Voldemort in the first place. He hates Harry, because he blames him for getting Lily killed. To him if Harry hadn't been born Lily would still be alive.
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jun 11, 2012 4:08:54 GMT -5
Well, McGonagall could have already left Hogwarts to go spy on the Dursleys before Hagrid arrived, depending on how far away from the school Godric's Hollow is ... after all, it only takes about ten minutes to walk out of the school, versus any number of hours to fly there from ... whereever.
But that brings us back to why in the name of god she went to spy on the Dursleys.
Having thought about it for a minute, it's entirely possible, given that Bellatrix went after the Longbottoms very shortly after Voldie went caput, and McGonagall knew Petunia was Lily's sister, that she actually went there to try to protect them, in case more DE's decided to go and give the Dursleys a poke or three for being related to the Potters. So that at least expains that to my satisfaction.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 11, 2012 4:10:58 GMT -5
Ok. Then Minerva actually knew where Lily's sister lived? How many others did know that, too? How many family friends could have taken Harry away?
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jun 11, 2012 4:19:41 GMT -5
McGonagall would probably have gotten close to Lily ... she was a prefect and eventually Head Girl, which meant they would have spent time together in the execution of Lily's duties. Eventually, Petunia would have come up, possibly even where she lived etc. Either that or Dumbledore had a record somewhere, given she was Lily's only living family and would need to be contacted if Lily kicked it.
Alot of other people probably knew of Petunia's existence, but relatively few would have known an exact address, I'm sure ... it's not like most of them would have a need to know it.
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Post by basketsarah120 on Jun 11, 2012 4:20:25 GMT -5
That's a scary thought.. And I bet it wouldn't have been too hard for Malfoy to get where Harry lived. I mean Umbridge was able to.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 11, 2012 4:24:41 GMT -5
Hm, possible. Which still leaves the question how many knew that Petunia was horrible to Lily - and why no one protested Harry's placement with the person who hated his mother already for being a freak? And would the Ministry not have had records on where Harry was placed? They seem to have records on any magical person, when you consider that they noticed Arabella wasn't on them. We know that Lucius could have gotten pretty much everywhere, so why not others, too? From both sides?
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jun 11, 2012 4:26:03 GMT -5
Exactly. It's more than a little scary, and makes for a good reason for McGonagall to have gone there.
And yet another very, painfully, criminally stupid reason for Dumbledore to have placed Harry there. Even if Lucius et al would not lower themselves to searching Muggle areas for Petunia if they themselves didn't know the address, it would have been a very simple thing to capture someone who would know, or later on, who had spotted Harry, and then just lie in wait. Easiest child-snatch in history.
Kitty ... I doubt many knew Petunia was an ass. Severus knew, but he wasn't exactly on chatty terms with anyone at the time. The Marauders probably knew, but they were dead or imprisoned or just plain unreachable. McGonagall figured it out, and did protest, but Dumbledore ignored her. I doubt the Ministry had Petunia's address ... they don't concern themselves with Muggles, after all. Dumbledore might have had it because she was part of the Order and all that.
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Post by basketsarah120 on Jun 11, 2012 4:28:08 GMT -5
And the Dursleys wouldn't have even reported it. They wouldn't care at all.. How easily Harry could've died as a kid. *shakes head*
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Post by vlcrawford on Jun 11, 2012 4:31:05 GMT -5
Sherza. I am not for sure how to put my answer with yours but where you talked about the timeline It wasn't that late on Halloween night with the attack took place because the kids were still out trick or treating and baby Harry was still up playing with his Dad as pointed out in DH when Harry saw what happened through Voldy's eyes.
Also In the first chapter if Harry had been at Hogwarts Dumbles would surely have seen him, but Hagrid was telling him there was no trouble getting him out of the house before the muggles came. Like he had went straight there. Which doesn't make sense because he either didn't go straight there or Sirius would have had time to take harry as he was suppose to have gotten to Godric's Hollow right after it happened, so Hagrid had to be there or he wouldn't have had to ask Hagrid to give him his Godson as he would have had him.
Plus when pray tell did Dumbles set up the blood wards as it never mentioned a wand being used, plus he never showed up for the app. 16 hours McGonagall sat watching the house.
How could Hagrid have found the house in the first place unless The rat told him? Argh I could bash Dumbles forever for all of his idiotic doings. For supposedly being the greatest wizard Merlin who knew everything he was dumber than a box of rocks and evidently only powerful because of the elder wand or he would have killed off Riddle himself. He was so worried about Draco's soul if he killed but didn't give two figs about Harry's. Like he said in HBP that prophecy might not have meant anything only Voldy believing it made it work, but actually Dumbles not taking care of the job or even having the Order do it, but put it on Harry is what made it be real. Dumbles stupidity caused it all, because he knew Snape heard the prophecy so why didn't he confund him immediately when he was found eavesdropping?
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 11, 2012 4:37:45 GMT -5
Indeed, the possibility was very real, that's why I don't see why Dumbledore could put so much stock into the wards. And as was said before, if they were that great, why the guards in OotP in the first place? Nothing really fits there.
I was thinking along the lines of the Ministry knowing where Harry was placed - or do you think they never knew? From the warnings he got, they seem to have been able to find him quite easily. So, was Harry listed in the register as living there? Then Lucius could have gotten a look on it. Or actually anyone. Even if they didn't know how Petunia was, did really no one even try to contact Harry?
(And btw, sometimes I wonder - there had to be tons of fanpost sent. If Dumbledore made sure it was redirected, how many letters of good family friends were among them, who would have given Harry at least the knowledge that someone cared for him?)
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jun 11, 2012 4:40:17 GMT -5
Sherza. I am not for sure how to put my answer with yours but where you talked about the timeline It wasn't that late on Halloween night with the attack took place because the kids were still out trick or treating and baby Harry was still up playing with his Dad as pointed out in DH when Harry saw what happened through Voldy's eyes. Also In the first chapter if Harry had been at Hogwarts Dumbles would surely have seen him, but Hagrid was telling him there was no trouble getting him out of the house before the muggles came. Like he had went straight there. Which doesn't make sense because he either didn't go straight there or Sirius would have had time to take harry as he was suppose to have gotten to Godric's Hollow right after it happened, so Hagrid had to be there or he wouldn't have had to ask Hagrid to give him his Godson as he would have had him. Plus when pray tell did Dumbles set up the blood wards as it never mentioned a wand being used, plus he never showed up for the app. 16 hours McGonagall sat watching the house. How could Hagrid have found the house in the first place unless The rat told him? Argh I could bash Dumbles forever for all of his idiotic doings. For supposedly being the greatest wizard Merlin who knew everything he was dumber than a box of rocks and evidently only powerful because of the elder wand or he would have killed off Riddle himself. He was so worried about Draco's soul if he killed but didn't give two figs about Harry's. Like he said in HBP that prophecy might not have meant anything only Voldy believing it made it work, but actually Dumbles not taking care of the job or even having the Order do it, but put it on Harry is what made it be real. Dumbles stupidity caused it all, because he knew Snape heard the prophecy so why didn't he confund him immediately when he was found eavesdropping? ok, so it wasn't as late as all that ... that just makes it worse, really. So all this started, what? Just after dark? so, say, six in the evening-ish? And Hagrid and Dumbles didn't show up at Privet Drive until roughly 24 hours after that. Yeah, timeline problems all over the place. Though it's possible that Dumbledore didn't happen to be at Hogwarts at the time ... given his myriad other positions, it's not beyond possibility that he was at the Ministry when the attack happened, or was called there immediately afterwards and therefore wasn't at the school when Hagrid arrives. Also ... he seemed to know about the scar when Harry arrived, which indicates to me that Harry WAS at Hogwarts and was healed, and Dumbles had heard about it at the very least. I agree that Hagrid's comments cause all sorts of problems, timeline wise ... that timeline was just my best guess as to what had happened given the few facts we have (Sirius heading straight there, McGonagall observing all day, etc). You bring up a good point about the wards. Dumbles shows up, puts Harry on the step, and leaves. No wand waving or incantations or wardstones placed or any such other nonsense. Which just makes the whole 'blood wards' thing more ridiculous. The best I can figure as to how Hagrid got there, is he just went to Godric's Hollow. Sirius seems to have been the one to get Harry out of the house, which is at least believable ... hed've HAD to know the address to get Harry's first-birthday present to him, unless James and Lily were waltzing out of the wards all the time, which makes no sense at all. It's possible that Dumbledore didn't tell anyone where Harry was sent, and they didn't figure it out until either Harry's Hogwarts letter got sent, or Dobby dropped the cake and it registered on the Ministry equipment, giving them the address at that point. At that point, the only thing stopping Lucius and co would be some sort of ward that prevented them from walking up to the door ... which wouldn't have stopped them from snatching him if he walked off the property. And yeah, there should have been oodles of fanmail. Where IS it? |
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 11, 2012 4:47:03 GMT -5
As they put Harry on the doorstep after the Dursleys were in bed already, I'd suspect it was after at least 10pm there. That gives you a 28-hour-window, actually. Which certainly makes the whole timeline even more strange.
Coming to think of it, how did Dumbledore know that Lily died for Harry? He would have had to know the evidence at Godric's Hollow *and* the result of a medical checkup to know for sure it was the AK which Harry survived, which makes it even more criminal to not do anything about the scar. But for using the wards as an excuse, he had to know what happened. There were four people in the house - two dead, one as good as dead and one a baby. So, how did he know everything if he wasn't there himself?
As for Sirius, I am convinced that he was in on the Fidelius. Another reason why it makes more sense that he got the baby out of the house. (And possibly the corpses of Lily and James as well - again, how did anyone get into a house under Fidelius?)
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Post by basketsarah120 on Jun 11, 2012 4:47:24 GMT -5
How could Hagrid have known where the place is? I couldn't picture Wormtail giving it to him or Dumbles.. I have the feeling maybe Dumbledore placed some type of too, on the Potter house to see when LV came. I've always had the feeling where the Potters staid used to be Dumbles house.
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jun 11, 2012 4:54:08 GMT -5
Good point about how Dumbledore knew. VERY good point. I'm thinking he just assumed and ran with it, because it worked into his little plot. *snerk*.
And yeah. 28-hour window of time to explain. Oy!
I too doubt that Hagrid and Dumbles were in on the Fidelius ... they couldn't have been, and not known who the secret keeper was. Best guess, there was some sort of alarm at the house to warn Dumbles of an attack, and even if he couldn't remember the exact address, he could have written himself a note saying 'if this alarm goes off, send Hagrid to Godric's Hollow!' or some such.
Stupid thing to do, but then again, that's Dumbles for you.
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Post by basketsarah120 on Jun 11, 2012 4:55:00 GMT -5
Kitty279, GMTA! But stop reading my mind |
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 11, 2012 5:01:23 GMT -5
That man bases the whole lives and fates of people just on assumptions - and that's what is annoying me so much. And then he's so arrogant about it, saying that his assumptions tend to be correct, but never sharing them and if he does, then only half the truth ... grrr.
Then he would have had to put the alarm up before the Potters went under the Fidelius. Hm. Possible.
If he sent Hagrid there, how would he be able to find anything at all? To send him to retrieve the baby would mean to expect that he could get in. Sure, there was an explosion, but can it destroy the Fidelius while the Secret Keeper is alive and well? To me it seemed as if the magic was hidden in the keeper, after all, not so much on the house? And what if there had not been an explosion, he would have just stood there, and the baby could have starved to death because no one could get in ...
Hach, that discussion is fun!
No, no, basketsarah, you are reading *my* mind!
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And then in third year we find out that Sirius was tossed in Azkaban without a trial ... and Dumbledore never did a thing about it ... and he had the power to. Double-doses of WTF on that one. And not recognizing that Moody wasn't Moody? GAH. AND we find out the ruddy old goat KNEW Harry was being neglected and abused. Quite frankly, at that point I was glad that Dumbledore wasn't actually real, because if he had been, I'dve been hard-pressed to keep from trying to kick his butt. 
