Your thoughts on Dumbledore....

[basketsarah120]

I agree it is hidden in the keeper. It never made sense how anyone could see the outside of the house or inside. I mean the charm still worked after Sirius died.

Kitty, maybe we share one mind .. Are you my long lost sister? Hehe

[sherza]

Hey, I can only figure stuff out to the point of getting Hagrid to Godric's Hollow. After that, I'm stumped as heck. Hagrid could NOT have known the secret, or he would have known Sirius was innocent.

Don't ask me to fully explain the demented minds of psycopathic old men. I can't do it. I can only take things so far. *laugh*

[basketsarah120]

Yeah it is hard to think about. Hehe, I can't wait what Dumbles has coming for him in our story .. Or Molly for that matter. *eg*

Kitty, I'm watching you

[sherza]

I have a lot of fun thwarting Dumbles in my non RtB stories (I've never written a RtB story) that are over on ff.net, and generally treating him like the evil bastard he is. *snerk*

[Kitty279]

Who knows, Basketsarah, it certainly seems so. Welcome to the family, little sister!

Sherza, then you are at the same point as I am. There's just too much that doesn't work when you take the whole series. When you only take PS, you can just accept things as they are. But the moment the later books come into the equation, the story has more holes than a Swiss cheese. One has to wonder why not only JKR never noticed, but the editor didn't put his foot down, either. I mean, if she mentioned someone in the first book once and as being blond, then ignored the character for the next five books and then mentioned it the second time in the last book and gave it dark hair, I could understand that they wouldn't catch that mistake. But this whole timeline for Halloween1981 and the events around it doesn't work in any way for me, and that's sloppy work.

Oh, seems I will have to read that one
Edit: *bangs head* Actually, I have read both of them, don't ask me why I didn't recognise your name! I really love your stories!

[basketsarah120]

I love you big sis

She must've had bad editors. I find it funny and weird how I never noticed some names are mentioned in passing in an earlier book, and become some type of big character later on.

[sherza]

Yeah ... and even within PS, things fall apart fast.

Ohhh, a fan! Yay! Glad you like them. Currently, my muse is being a brat. I'm working on my non-HP story at the moment, as I switch back and forth with chapters, and it's being ... difficult.

[basketsarah120]

Haha, I'm currently writing an HP Reading the book series. Dumbledore, and some other characters will get what they deserve . And I'm also writing a Twilight one, but I haven't written on either stories for awhile. Someone stole my muse.

[Kitty279]

Do you think you muse could be bribed with cookies? I'd donate a batch if it would behave and work hard for you?

[basketsarah120]

Yummy Cookies. I don't know. Can you be bribed Kitty?

[sherza]

oh god, Twilight.

Don't get me started on that ... I'm even more vehement and ragey about that series than I am Dumbledore.

Pretty please for me, have someone punch Dumbles? I've NEVER seen that done (nor have someone hex/try to hex Dumbles) and depending on who you have in the room, it could happen. Sirius and Molly for sure would and could go either route, and so could Remus. Or Snape, even.

[Kitty279]

Oh, don't worry, he already got his due!

(And I could never bring myself to read Twilight, so you are not alone on that, too)

[basketsarah120]

I don't read the Twilight books anymore. I just read the FF, but they aren't vamps, or wolves. They are human like us. Hehe, oh yes Dumbles got his due.. Gotta love the temper of a fiery red head.

[G. Novella]

Just on the note of Dumbledore being secretive, well, if Harry grew up abused and was a teenager and his secrecy can be ignored, than you have to remember how Dumbledore grew up.

His mother kept saying, no telling anyone anything. Everything must be a secret! Because of his sister's attack, he was raised to keep secrets. Than the one guy who comes along that Dumbledore reveals everything to (Grindelwald) not only betrays that trust, but also is responsible for tearing apart his family. After that, it probably takes a long time for Dumbledore to trust people.

And on the note of the Blood Wards, I don't think it was an elaborate Dumbledore scheme, just a shitty plot hole that JKR never bothered to fill. I half think she forgot what they did and then remade them, then forgot they existed, and her editor would remind her so she'd write them back in. Even I never got the whole point of the Blood wards.

As for the timeline, well, again I'm going to blame JKR. She has a tendency to leave behind plot holes where it suits her.

[isk2837]

Why do you keep saying that Hagrid and Dumbledore couldn't have known the secret of where the Potters were hiding without knowing that Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper? Because there's proof in OoTP that that isn't true at all. Harry is brought in on the secret of 12 Grimmauld Place by being given a note (presumably written by Dumbledore, but Harry doesn't learn that until later). So why couldn't Dumbledore and Hagrid have been given a note telling them where the Potters are hiding? Then they know the secret, and Peter's identity as the Secret Keeper is still secret.

[Kitty279]

Hm, I can see your point about Dumbledore. But did he never realise that his secrecy cost them so much? What if he had died when he recovered the ring? Then his whole knowledge would have died with him, leaving the world to go to hell. Did he never think about that, but believed himself to be invincible? And even afterwards, he made sure that only Snape knew about Harry being a Horcrux and that Harry was supposed to learn that from the one person he would never, ever really trust. Great idea, really. Plus, what if Snape had died? As a double agent, he was in constant danger. Again, what then?

Of course that were all huge plotholes, but where's the fun in just saying the author made these gigantic mistakes? That way the whole story doesn't make any sense, so I'd prefer to have some reason for that stuff in the story itself

Jun 11, 2012 6:10:49 GMT -5 isk2837 said:

Why do you keep saying that Hagrid and Dumbledore couldn't have known the secret of where the Potters were hiding without knowing that Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper? Because there's proof in OoTP that that isn't true at all. Harry is brought in on the secret of 12 Grimmauld Place by being given a note (presumably written by Dumbledore, but Harry doesn't learn that until later). So why couldn't Dumbledore and Hagrid have been given a note telling them where the Potters are hiding? Then they know the secret, and Peter's identity as the Secret Keeper is still secret.

That would only work if Dumbledore wrote it, no one else should be able to. Which means that, if they learned it that way, it would have to be in Peter's handwriting, not in Sirius's. Something Dumbledore would have easily been able to verify. No, I doubt they really were in on the secret.

[isk2837]

But why would Dumbledore bother to verify whose handwriting it is? I don't see him doing that unless he has a reason to suspect that Sirius didn't write the note.

[Kitty279]

And that's exactly the problem. The wizarding world is damning innocent people without proof, questioning, trial, without absolutely anything just because they think they know, so any investigation is useless. In my eyes, people like Crouch, Fudge and Dumbledore are criminals themselves for throwing people in prison - and one as bad as Azkaban to boot - without making sure they do the right thing. On the one hand, wizards think they are so superior to the Muggles, but in truth, they are worse than any third-world dictatorship.

[G. Novella]

See, the reason I see that Dumbledore didn't realize what his secrecy was costing him is because it produced results. As well, I get the feeling that he became this invincible monster as people fed his ego. I mean, if you keep telling a person they can play piano, they'll eventually convince themselves that they're pianists, when in reality, they only know a few tunes.

That being said, Voldemort was an idiot of a villain himself. I mean seriously. I would not take Snape back ever. I'd get my information on Dumbledore through a new spy. I seriously find Voldemort as the stupidest villain ever. Dumbledore manipulated him entirely because he was so damn predictable. Is it too much to ask for him to just be bat-shit crazy or unpredictable? I really didn't care about his back story at all, it made me feel bad for him, it proved him as human and defeat-able, but in reality, I though HBP was a waste of a book besides Ginny/Harry getting together.

And here's my take on the Blood Wards and how they were made:

JKR: I DID IT! I FINISHED THE MANUSCRIPT!

Editor: Great, let me read it. (Reads). So, Harry's going back to the Dursley's again?

JKR: Well, yeah. They're his family.

Editor: Yes, but they hate him. Dumbledore's acknowledged it, so why isn't Harry being moved. I mean, they abuse him.

JKR: No they don't, it's neglect, not abuse.

Editor: ...But they strangled him. And threw a frying pan at him. And locked him in a cupboard.

JKR: Oh, yes, they did. But it's just extreme neglect!

Editor: But, if Harry's not happy at home, why is he still there?

JKR: ...He's got family?

Editor: NO, J, that's not how it works.

JKR: Fine, he's safer there?

Editor: Why?

JKR: Let me think.... I know! The blood protection because his family and his aunt!

Editor: Great, you work on that. I'm going to buy you some books on the basics of poverty and abuse.

And yes, some things we can explain in the story, but that's why I prefer fanfiction to the books themselves. Too many plot holes and basics about humanity are ignored. But I'll give JKR this, she creates great characters.

[Kitty279]

It certainly went to Dumbledore's head that they were worshipping him and thinking he can do no wrong. It's strange - on the one hand, he refused to become Minister, but on the other hand, he was pulling strings left, right and center and had everyone dance to his tune. Which is in the end worse.

Can't disagree about Moldyshorts, either. Just look at the way he was always doing these big speeches before going to kill Harry. That one liked to hear himself talk about how great he was. Idiot. And I never had any use for HBP, to be honest. As I am not a huge fan of the H/G pairing, it was a waste for me.

*snicker* Love that little talk! Yeah, and then Jo went off to write that bit about the protection, and forgot everything she had written before!

[ShotgunWilly]

I think it's very likely that Dumbledore's power simply just went to his head. I always thought it was ironic that Dumbledore admitted that he felt he couldn't be trusted with power, and yet he had a ton of power in both Wizarding Britain and the international community.

Also, I was just thinking about it, and I think that a lot of these debates seem to assume that the Wizarding world is logical when magic is, pretty much by definition, illogical. Just saying.

[Animikokala]

On the topic of that Halloween night....

If everyone in the order *knew* Sirius was the secret keeper, why did Hagrid not stop Sirius and ask him what happened? What kind of loyal Death Eater would give Hagrid the means to get Harry to safety? And if no one believed him to be a Death Eater at the time, the only way Voldemort should have gotten the secret from Sirius (if he were the keeper) was by torturing him; shouldn't Hagrid be concerned about Sirius' health?

And if Hagrid didn't know Sirius was the secret keeper, shouldn't Dumbledore have warned Hagrid that Sirius was the secret keeper? Then Hagrid would know about the possible Sirius Secret Keeper outcomes should he encounter him. And when Hagrid mentioned Sirius giving him the motorcycle, shouldn't Dumbledore be wondering about the secret keeper issue by that point? Contact Sirius in some way to find out what happened?

[Kitty279]

Jun 11, 2012 8:09:13 GMT -5 ShotgunWilly said:

I think it's very likely that Dumbledore's power simply just went to his head. I always thought it was ironic that Dumbledore admitted that he felt he couldn't be trusted with power, and yet he had a ton of power in both Wizarding Britain and the international community.

Also, I was just thinking about it, and I think that a lot of these debates seem to assume that the Wizarding world is logical when magic is, pretty much by definition, illogical. Just saying.

And wanted to keep it. Remember how he reinstated himself at the end of OotP? While I totally agree that he can't be trusted with power, he sadly forgot about it too easily.

Of course the magical world is illogical, but we are muggles and want to explain everything in a logical way

Jun 11, 2012 8:10:15 GMT -5 Animikokala said:

On the topic of that Halloween night....

If everyone in the order *knew* Sirius was the secret keeper, why did Hagrid not stop Sirius and ask him what happened? What kind of loyal Death Eater would give Hagrid the means to get Harry to safety? And if no one believed him to be a Death Eater at the time, the only way Voldemort should have gotten the secret from Sirius (if he were the keeper) was by torturing him; shouldn't Hagrid be concerned about Sirius' health?

And if Hagrid didn't know Sirius was the secret keeper, shouldn't Dumbledore have warned Hagrid that Sirius was the secret keeper? Then Hagrid would know about the possible Sirius Secret Keeper outcomes should he encounter him. And when Hagrid mentioned Sirius giving him the motorcycle, shouldn't Dumbledore be wondering about the secret keeper issue by that point? Contact Sirius in some way to find out what happened?

That are actually very good points. Besides, I already said I believe Sirius had to get the baby out of the house, so he would have handed Harry over. Not the reaction of a Death Eater, either. Someone didn't go about the whole incident in a logical way *cough*BagnoldCrouchDumbledore*cough*, they used no brain at all, when you think about it. You can't help wondering if they didn't just need a scapegoat, and poor Sirius was the one that had to pay the price.

It still annoys the hell out of me that Dumbledore is so overly ready to redeem any Death Eater, be it Snape or Malfoy, but at the same time, doesn't bother to even ask one of his own Order if his assumptions are true. He knew how close James and Sirius were - and didn't feel the need to ask Sirius at least *why* he supposedly did that?

When I think about it - Dumbledore was so insistent that they need to treat Kreacher better - but how did he himself treat the people around himself? Leaving them in the dark, using them, locking them up without bothering about proper procedure, setting them up to be abused ... maybe he should start with *human* rights first, before he worries about the rights of Elves, Death Eaters and other beasts!

[G. Novella]

See, the whole thing with that Halloween night is fishy.

Honestly, I feel like JKR mentions something in one book, then when she starts writing the second, she forgets everything she wrote before and rewrites what happened to make it fit with the new book.

As for the idea that Dumbledore had too much power, exactly. But you can't blame him for becoming a powerful figure, because guess what, everyone let him! Nobody said, maybe this guy needs a break since his ideas are questionable. No, it was, let Dumbledore do things. Oh he can solve the problem. It became a horrible cycle that people kept going to Dumbledore, and he kept getting more power and letting it inflate his head.

As for being ready to redeem any Death Eater, I don't think that's true at all. The way he treated Snape was deplorable in the seventh book, but then, Snape needed to be kicked to the right path. He didn't trust Malfoy, but Malfoy had the minister on his arm and the minister had plenty of power, which is again questionable.

And on that note, Dumbledore knew Sirius and James were close, yes. But so did McGonagall. So did Remus. So did Moody. So did everybody who ever went to school with them or was in the Order, and not one of them questioned it either. It was a time of war, and everyone was suspicious of everyone. Sirius got set up because he acted on emotions rather than logic.

I mean, how does the minister get to hold a court? How does a case not get processed by the Wizengamot and Aurors before going to trial?

Finally, one last conversation on how JKR writes the books.

JKR: Okay, finished PS, better get started on COS. Now, (writes)

Editor: This is great!

JKR: Want to see the plans for POA?

Editor: Wait, this is new? How does it fit with PS?

JKR: PS? I wrote that too? Oh wait, I did! Right, it does, see, all this stuff happened, it's just a new viewpoint.

Editor: Okay, I guess...

JKR: I finished writing DH!

Editor: Wait, what? This contradicts things PS and OOTP and COS!

JKR : It's fine, no one will notice! Besides, it makes sense! This is the story!

Editor: But-But-

JKR: It works! Let's publish it!

Editor: Oh screw it. We have money and fame, it doesn't matter. People will read and love it anyways.

And they were right.

[Kitty279]

As for being ready to redeem any Death Eater, I don't think that's true at all. The way he treated Snape was deplorable in the seventh book, but then, Snape needed to be kicked to the right path. He didn't trust Malfoy, but Malfoy had the minister on his arm and the minister had plenty of power, which is again questionable.

But he still was so worried to save Draco's soul that he completely ignored the fact that it nearly cost Katie and Ron their lives. In the end, Death Eaters broke into the school, which only thanks to sheer luck didn't end in a blood bath. All that to protect a Death Eater. I'm pretty sure Dumbledore knew who was behind all that, and still, he gave that one free rain. After all, he had all under control, even if they were running amok in his school.
As for Snape, he should never, ever have been allowed anywhere near children. He didn't need to be kicked on the right path, but beaten to a pulp, rather likely, seeing how he acted.

Love that new JKR-Editor-talk ;D Actually, that is what a friend and I once decided - while working on getting the last few books finished, they only saw the £ sign and forgot everything else. They knew the books would sell anyway. Sad really, they could have been so much better.
Sometimes I think JKR had one idea and then insisted on keeping it, no matter if it fit with later ideas, she just used everything and forgot about consistency.

[G. Novella]

Yeah, I really didn't get that in HBP. But I really don't count that book. It screwed up all the characters. Seriously, Ron's the awkward red head, he's not supposed to get a girlfriend that's the skanky type. He's supposed to fumble with his feelings for Hermione. Not that I don't adore Lavender, but I hated how that played out. And Ginny was perfectly normal in OOTP and DH, but in HBP she's the pms-filled rage chick who yells at everyone. And Hermione gets all vindictive. Honestly, I get that she was upset Ron chose Lavender, but they weren't even dating and Ron's proven to be awkward. I would have thought she'd try to be supportive while dying on the inside, not rage filled. And Harry gets obsessive over Malfoy. Remus disappears. It was a mess of a book.

Snape shouldn't be beaten, but possibly sent to a lab, isolated. Given some therapy and made into an old hermit who lives alone and works on potions. Never be allowed near children. He's too bitter.

And I enjoy writing the JKR editor talks. I see no way to throw one in right now, but I will find a way next time. But they became really money hungry towards the end and wrote just anything. That's why I say, Fanfiction > Actual books.

[Kitty279]

Frankly, I'll never really understand JKR's look at relationships. Ron and Hermione were always fighting - not just bickering good-naturedly, but fighting! - they had no common interests, he was talking down to her and vice versa. It's hard to imagine how that pairing was supposed to work out later, no matter the feelings. And Harry, who hated his fame, marrying his obsessed fangirl Number One? Hard to understand. But then, I am rather cynical about relationships anyway.

Hm, yes, put that lab on some cold, drafty island at the back of nowhere, and I'd agree And if some Dementors accidentally turn up there now and then, you will not hear me complain *whistles innocently*

Oh, I'll enjoy any you can come up with, they are really fun! You are right about fanfiction, too - we can use all the plotholes or change the outcome. Sirius never should have died, just to give one example. That's why I love stories where he survives and helps Harry against a certain manipulative old codger.

[Miss Wings]

I'm on 2 minds when it comes to Dumbledore. Yes he can be manipulative but at the same time he can also be the Grandfather. A true Slytherin if ever I saw one. The only reason he ever wanted the Deathly Hallows was so that he could clear his conscience when it came to his sister- Arianna was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Simple as that.

[viralic1]

Jun 11, 2012 9:40:49 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Frankly, I'll never really understand JKR's look at relationships. Ron and Hermione were always fighting - not just bickering good-naturedly, but fighting! - they had no common interests, he was talking down to her and vice versa. It's hard to imagine how that pairing was supposed to work out later, no matter the feelings. And Harry, who hated his fame, marrying his obsessed fangirl Number One? Hard to understand. But then, I am rather cynical about relationships anyway.

Exactly.

[readingwizard4]

This is a long post so sorry about that. I like and hate Dumbledore. He was willing to get the job done but his methods leave a lot to be desired. I blame fanfiction for that. People keep finding new things on Dumbledore that keep making me re-evaluate my opinion on him. I like reading the books but let things that seem way too out there slide but when reading fanfiction I just keep changing my mind. The books by themselves are good as long as you don't look too deeply.

I can't believe he Harry was left with the Dursley's. Dumbledore probably talked to Lily a lot since she was a Prefect and Head Girl. Wouldn't Dumbledore know that Lily and Petunia don't get along? Why wasn't James' and Lily's will ever opened? Dumbledore doing his own thing. Sometimes I like to think Dumbledore didn't try to save Sirius because he knew Sirius would never let Harry go to the Dursley's. Gives him the perfect opening to do so.

Why wasn't Sirius given a trial? I was under the impression Dumbledore had political clout. He told the Minister or whomever it was that Sirius was to be the Secret-Keeper and that condemned Sirius. How on Earth could no one question that? His professors and friends knew he was hot-tempered. If he could come up with a plan that he thought was better wouldn't he do it? Unfortunately Crouch would say that he made Peter become Secret-Keeper and brought him to Voldemort and broke him or something. He got Snape off scott-free didn't he? Why not Sirius? Dumbledore does preach innocent until proven guilty but does he follow that? No. Shouldn't he have checked to see what other Deaths could be rounded up with his knowledge?

The bloodwards were the reason but he had to leave the house sometime. Plus with the wizards seeing him in public unless they were all Dumbledore 's agents. Whoever said Malfoy could find him easily and take him and the Dursley's wouldn't care scares me. That would be a good idea for a story though. The 1st letter had the Cupboard on it. Why in the blazes do the teachers not check the letters? Also how could Dumbledore not know Quirrell having Voldemort on the back of his head? He is the Headmaster and controls the wards. There has to be a wards that keeps out evil spirits.

2nd year-Why no wards on evil dark objects like the Diary and why no asking Myrtle on he she died. Also why didn't Dumbledore ask more from Harry after he was brought to his office the 1st time? Unless you count Harry thinking everything and Dumbledore Legillimizing (or whatever it is) Harry

3rd year-Agreed to the Dementors. He should have made a bigger fuss since Dementors guard some of the worst prisoners ever. Yes I know he had to compromise with the Ministry but the Dementors attacked Harry 3 times. Why no call for them to be removed?

4th year-How did he not know that Moody was an imposter? He knew Moody for how many years? How long did Crouch have to practice his role? Couple hours at most. Shouldn't Dumbledore have been alerted when the portkey went off? Since we only see Harry's perspective throughout the series except for a couple chapters we don't get a real good idea of what happened there. I want to know why Snape did not tell Dumbledore when his Dark Mark went off. If he did know then fine but he should know about where Riddle's parents lived why not risk a trip over there?

5th year-Don't get me started on this one. Why would Harry need Order people following him unless the bloodwards didn't work? Unless he knew Harry would go out and they couldn't protect him. The only reasons I can see that Dumbledore did not let Harry know about the prophecy was because of the connection (even though Riddle didn't know it yet) and if Riddle wanted to get it he would have infiltrate the Ministry proving he is still alive. He let Harry be isolated at Privet Drive. Whats the point of that? That's only going to make him angry and confused. Also shouldn't Dumbledore have had wards telling him that Umbridge was using a Blood Quill. At least he let Harry run the DA with no interference. He also locked up Sirius in his old house. He has not once thought of other people as people except as chess pieces. Also why have Snape teach Harry Occulemency? They loath each other. It seems to me to be Dumbledore expects the best of people who don't deserve it. He thinks Snape will let go of his grudge against Harry so he can help him. I want to comment on Snape but I'll leave that for another post. Dumbledore also probably expected Petunia to get over her grudge against Lily and take harry in even though she had no choice in the matter.

6th year-He let Malfoy run free trying to kill him when Ron and Katie got caught in the cross-fire. Sort of like the Sirius situation again. Sacrifice the good people to save scum like Snape and Malfoy. I don't like Snape at all. Dumbledore also didn't tell Harry much about the Horcruxes. Shouldn't the wards have also gone off for the Diadem?

7th year-Let 3 17 year olds run all over the country trying to find the Horcruxes with hardly any info. Also he didn't train Harry at all but since he was to be killed anyway why bother? He probably figured Harry could get out of any situation.

Again sorry for the long post but there is a lot to digest about Dumbledore