Your thoughts on Dumbledore....

[sn0rkack]

Albus Dumbledore and the Chamberpot of Secrets

[Kitty279]

No need to apologise for a long post when it is well written, at least as far as I am concerned! And just for the record, I was nodding along with every one of your points. You were summing up nicely what I have said strewn all over the place and put it in one place

Want more failings? Then you can add to the list that Harry had a traumatic experience at the end of every year. What was Dumbledore's reaction? Give him a pat on the head, a few house points, tell him some half-truths or that he's too young, and send him back to be abused.

In first year, Harry accidentally killed Quirrell, or at least it had to feel like that for him. Please - every Muggle policeman who has to take down someone running amok would get counseling - and these are adults trained for the job! But Dumbledore sent an eleven-year-old away into an abusive environment.

The same could be said about second year, when Harry nearly died and had to face Voldemort again and a basilisk to boot. Help? None.

Third year? He was just attacked by a hundred Dementors and had to fight them off because no one of the adults was of any use. Help? None.

Fourth year? He saw Cedric die, had all three Unforgivables thrown at him, had to see Voldemort being resurrected, duel him and then was attacked by another Death Eater right under Dumbledore's nose. Help? Again, none. Instead, he was cut off, left to deal alone with another huge trauma, then got attacked again, finally allowed out of Privet Drive, only to be used as house-elf just like at Privet Drive and otherwise treated like a baby who would die of fright if he'd just hear the name Voldemort. Which ties into Fifth year, where the refusal to tell him anything cost him his godfather. And don't get me started on Umbitch torturing him and the toad getting off scot-free, as usual.

And after all these traumatic experiences, Dumbledore didn't even try to do anything to help a child that was put through much more than any adults in the Order probably have ever seen. It was enough to put him in the safe care of his oh so loving relatives, right?

[G. Novella]

About the relationships,

I support Ron/Hermione because they remind me of my parents, a), and b) I can't see them with other people either. I mean, don't get me started on Hermione/Harry or Hermione/Malfoy or Hermione/Krum. All three relationships inspire long spiteful rants.

I can't see Ron with anyone else either because Ron/Luna doesn't work and I'd source it, but the fact that he can't take her seriously may be the first thing, Ron can't date his sister, Ron/Lavender is weird as hell, and those are the main three girls in Ron's life besides Hermione.

I can't see Harry with any girl in the book. Harry/Luna I've heard, and I can see it, I just see a lot of flaws in that relationship. Harry/Any girl from Hermione's year would be weird. Harry/Chaser girl, I guess, but they weren't central enough to be paired with a main character. So I guess Ginny fit because she was a good blend of Ron and Hermione, the two most important people in his life. The thing is, Ginny reminds me of a more female, gentler version of Ron, which then inspires me to read slash fics where Harry realizes he loves Ron.

But on the track of Dumbledore, I totally agree with sn0rkack "Albus Dumbledore and the Chamberpot of Secrets". It made me laugh, but I can see what inspires Dumbledore to be like that.

[isk2837]

Dumbledore is often said to have a lot of political clout, but I've seen multiple cases throughout the books where he doesn't seem to have any.

In second year, Dumbledore can't stop Fudge from sending Hagrid to Azkaban or Lucius from having him suspended as Headmaster.

In third year, he can't stop the Ministry from having Buckbeak executed (at least not legally), can't stop Fudge from sending the Dementors to Hogwarts (even after the time they invade the Quidditch pitch mid-game and nearly cause a student - Harry Potter no less - to fall to his death), and can't stop Fudge from having Sirius receive the Dementor's Kiss (at least not legally).

In fifth year, Fudge and Umbridge are basically free to warp the law however they wish to suit their agenda, while Dumbledore is stripped of his titles and eventually loses his job and goes on the run, only being able to return when Voldemort is revealed to be back and Fudge has lost all credibility.

In sixth year, Dumbledore is unable to do anything about people like Stan Shunpike being sent to Azkaban (I think it's mentioned that Dumbledore talks to Scrimgeour about it, with apparently no effect). And he can't ultimately stop Scrimgeour from talking to Harry (though he manages to keep him away for a while).

From all the times that Dumbledore is unable to prevent the Ministry from doing as it pleases, I can only conclude that either Dumbledore has a lot less political clout than people think he does, or he isn't using the clout he has for whatever reason.

[Kitty279]

See, and I can't see Harry with Ginny and Ron with Hermione. In the end, it comes down to taste. I can read a well-writen Harry/Hermione, as long as it's not one of these fics where Harry just hands his brain over and leaves all thinking to Hermione, who keeps telling him every little thing and is bossing him around. They need to really work together. But I despise any pairings with Harry or Hermione and one of the Malfoys or Snape. Ugh.

Why do they need to be paired with some schoolmates at all costs? Why not leave them stay friends and then, later on, just have them find their happiness elsewhere? For me, romance is not a necessity in a story, I am perfectly happy to read one without any pairings at all. To be honest, I was often irritated when I looked at reviews to a story and people were demanding to know pairings already in chapter one while Harry's still a baby. There's no point in adding that sort of stuff 12 to 15 years before it actually happens, not for me. But it seems that for others, the romances are the only thing that counts about a fic *shrugs* I guess there's not really a right or wrong pairing; again, it's all down to taste. If for you only canon pairings work, then you will find enough stories along that line. And I'll find others I like.

[19811945]

When been reading some of the stories on ff.net, I've always swung back and forwards on how I like Dumbledore to really hating him.

He comes off as secreative, refusing to give information, even though in the end it killed him. He let three 17/18 year olds run about the country in order to find these horcroxes.

I especially hated him in the Order of the Phoenix book as being double standard against Harry. On one hand to protect him against Fudge at Harry's trial against using magic in front of Dudley, to completely ignoring him throughout the year, which in the end cost Sirius life, when he refused to even discuss the prophecy issue with Harry in the first place.

Snape on the other hand, with what happened to him by the Maurder's while at school, he should have left all that behind him, but he should have taken a closer look at Harry when he first arrived at Hogwarts. He would have found a completely different Harry, than the one he formed in his head from his bullying, spoilt brat of a father - James.

[G. Novella]

I'm not saying I stick to canon, I just don't see all these flaws in canon.

As for Harry/Hermione. No. That relationship is disturbing and their tempers don't match. At least Ron and Hermione are both hot tempered. Harry's this boiling pot. He'd irritate Hermione and she'd snap at him. However, she'd keep irritating him until he blows up at her and tears her to shreds leaving her totally broken. Then he'd try to fix it. And she has issues with her self-esteem to begin with and Harry'd tear it down in one good fight. That's just one reason I can't see the two together.

But yes, eventually it boils down to taste. And I'm happy with canon, whereas others aren't/

As for Harry or Hermione with Malfoys or Snape- This is so wrong on so many levels. I don't mind Snape mentoring Harry fics. But the romance... ugh. (I actually shuddered)

And I hate it when people demand relationships in the first chapter. Read another story by the author. look at their bio. Look at their faves. It'll give you an idea of who they might pick, and read it. That's the point. To broaden the horizons of the original work.

[Kitty279]

Harry could tear down Hermione, right, but on the other hand, she wouldn't be innocent when she keeps bossing him around. But Ron was fighting way more with her, and I don't believe that to be the basis for a real relationship. It can work out in few cases, but in most, it will probably end in tears, screaming, divorce. I'd never, ever touch someone like Ron with a ten-foot-pole. As for Harry, I believe a lot of his temper was caused by the stress he was under for way too long and he calmed down later.

Yeah, it is wrong on *all* levels, and I never understood why these pairings are so popular. Save the people are thinking of the authors and transfer their liking of them on the characters they play

[sherza]

I have sort of always looked askance at people that think Harry is being an emo whiner in Book 5, mostly because of all the un-treated trauma that's been pointed out. I mean, hell, by that point, I don't understand how Harry *isn't* suffering from massive PTSD, depression, and Moody-esque paranoia. And add in to all that previous trauma that 5th year he had Voldie poking into his head? Yeah. Harry had EVERY right in the world to be all over the place emotionally, and screaming at people, although personally, I'dve aimed it at Dumbledore, rather than Ron and Hermione, though they did deserve a dose for obeying Dumbledore and keeping Harry in the dark.

[Kitty279]

See, and that's why Dumbledore avoided Harry at all costs - he didn't want to be screamed at Actually, I felt some smug satisfaction when Harry trashed his office after the DoM incident.

But I agree, with everything going on, I don't blame him. In his place, I wouldn't be any calmer, very likely. And Hermione's self-righteous insistence to listen to Dumbledore and Snape ... ugh.

[sherza]

ESPECIALLY Snape. The self-same man who has tormented Harry for years. Harry would listen to him and treat him with respect ... why again?

I agree that the office-trashing was rather cathartic, although I will admit to having hoped for much worse damage, and direct attacks on Dumbledore, especially given what he was saying and how he handled that whole thing. If that had been ME, Dumbledore would have been flat out on the floor, unconscious and likely with broken bones, on top of everything in the office being as thoroughly trashed magically as was humanly possible. I do NOT understand why in the name of god Dumbledore chose to tell Harry about the gods-be-damned prophecy less than an hour after Harry watched his godfather die. That's just ... mind-bogglingly stupid.

[Kitty279]

Yeah, and Hermione knows how Snape treats Harry, better than Dumbledore. But it's as was said before - people see Dumbledore as God who can do no wrong, and so he is always right when he demands the impossible.

Ah ... you mean I am not the only one who dreamed about giving Dumbledore a few good left and right hooks and kicks, preferably where it hurts the most? O:-) As you said, it was the worst timing ever and could have broken Harry completely, in my opinion. If he had told him one year earlier, it would have avoided so much tragedy. And why did the old codger never try to find another way to destroy the horcrux in Harry???

Which leads to another huge pet peeve I have with the series - Albus Severus Potter. Why on earth would Harry name his son after the two men who caused him the most problems after Voldemort??

[sherza]

Jun 11, 2012 15:41:24 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Yeah, and Hermione knows how Snape treats Harry, better than Dumbledore. But it's as was said before - people see Dumbledore as God who can do no wrong, and so he is always right when he demands the impossible.

Ah ... you mean I am not the only one who dreamed about giving Dumbledore a few good left and right hooks and kicks, preferably where it hurts the most? O:-) As you said, it was the worst timing ever and could have broken Harry completely, in my opinion. If he had told him one year earlier, it would have avoided so much tragedy. And why did the old codger never try to find another way to destroy the horcrux in Harry???

Which leads to another huge pet peeve I have with the series - Albus Severus Potter. Why on earth would Harry name his son after the two men who caused him the most problems after Voldemort??

Oh man, agreed on ALL points. Hermione was, though, at lease being consistent, since she has kissed authority ass since she was introduced in the first book, and never stopped ... so her expecting it of Harry isn't that huge a shock, just annoying as crap.

I will never understand Albus Severus. But then again, I pretend the Epilogue doesn't exist at all, so that's hardly surprising. I mean ... as much as I can understand Harry wanting to honor his father and Sirius ... did Ginny have any say whatever in naming any of their three kids? Surely SHE had people she'd like to honor by naming a kid after them, or just plain liked a certain name and wanted a kid named that? Going by the names, she either wasn't allowed input, or JKR just went the 'the little wifey agrees with the hubby' route.

[Animikokala]

Jun 11, 2012 15:52:36 GMT -5 sherza said:

Jun 11, 2012 15:41:24 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Yeah, and Hermione knows how Snape treats Harry, better than Dumbledore. But it's as was said before - people see Dumbledore as God who can do no wrong, and so he is always right when he demands the impossible.

Ah ... you mean I am not the only one who dreamed about giving Dumbledore a few good left and right hooks and kicks, preferably where it hurts the most? O:-) As you said, it was the worst timing ever and could have broken Harry completely, in my opinion. If he had told him one year earlier, it would have avoided so much tragedy. And why did the old codger never try to find another way to destroy the horcrux in Harry???

Which leads to another huge pet peeve I have with the series - Albus Severus Potter. Why on earth would Harry name his son after the two men who caused him the most problems after Voldemort??

Oh man, agreed on ALL points. Hermione was, though, at lease being consistent, since she has kissed authority ass since she was introduced in the first book, and never stopped ... so her expecting it of Harry isn't that huge a shock, just annoying as crap.

I will never understand Albus Severus. But then again, I pretend the Epilogue doesn't exist at all, so that's hardly surprising. I mean ... as much as I can understand Harry wanting to honor his father and Sirius ... did Ginny have any say whatever in naming any of their three kids? Surely SHE had people she'd like to honor by naming a kid after them, or just plain liked a certain name and wanted a kid named that? Going by the names, she either wasn't allowed input, or JKR just went the 'the little wifey agrees with the hubby' route.

The only logic I can see in it is if Ginny decided to let Harry name the kids after his parental figures, considering that his are all dead, while her parents had several other children who could choose to name their kids after them. Perhaps she chose the middle name for Lily Luna?

[basketsarah120]

Or Ginny could've liked both names and helped.. You never know with JKR. I happen to like cannon pairings, but instead of Luna/Wolf, and Neville/Hannah. I rather like Neville/Luna, I always thought they would end up together.

[viralic1]

I wouldn't be sure about that. Harry and Luna had a connection that really seemed to help him, especially after Sirius's death in OotP, and Dobby's death in DH. I can see him making Lily's middle name Luna.

[G. Novella]

I rather like Albus Severus... not together mind you. I just like that he went that road and honored them. It added to his character of being forgiving.

As for the choice of Luna, I want to say Harry chose the name, but personally, I think Ginny would because Luna was her best friend.

But seriously, JKR has some very odd ideas about marriage. Anyone who thinks marrying a high school sweetheart when you're nineteen is a great idea is wrong. I can totally see her saying, yes, Ginny let Harry pick all the names and became docile despite Harry liking the fiery side of her. Because that woman had a strange grasp on her characters and changes them at will.

[readingwizard4]

Thanks kitty279. Dumbledore is one of those characters you can write an essay on and still not get everything. Harry and Snape being two other characters like that. Speaking of living 10 years with the Dursley's, inadverdantly killing Quirrel, killing a Basilisk and facing a memory, reliving your parents murders, seeing a werewolf, going back in time, the attack at the World Cup, all of the dreams and nightmares, facing a dragon, going underwater for an hour, the maze, Voldemort's rebirth and Cedric's death, the blood quill, seeing a threstral, seeing Sirius die, putting the crucio on Bellatrix, being possessed by Voldemort, getting slandered by the Ministry, getting slandered by the students almost every single year, force-feeding Dumbledore that poison, seeing Dumbledore die, and everything that happened in 7th year. It's a miracle that Harry survived all that with mind intact. I would have lost it at the Dursley's most likely.

[sherza]

gnovella ... I ... ummm ... why in the name of god would Harry forgive that pair? As much as I enjoy Snape, and exploring his character (I am perverse, what can I say?) ... if I'd been in Harry's shoes ... no way in hell would I ever forgive the bastard. Not after six years of nonstop torment for the heinous sin of being the son of a man I have no memory of. Not to mention the fact it's Severus' fault that Harry's life went the way it did. If Severus hadn't heard the prophecy and tattled to Voldie about it ... well, things would have been wildly different.

And I'dve been tempted to loose some fiendfyre on Dumbledore's grave and raze it to the ground, to be honest. It has never, and will never, make any damn sense to me that Harry would honor/remember those two.

[G. Novella]

See, the thing with Harry's character is that he always sees the better in people. Snape and Dumbledore are complex, and I feel like I'm repeating myself, but you love or hate them. He honored Snape because of Snape's love for Lily. He honored Dumbledore because he chose to remember grandfather Dumbledore who fought for the greater good. I think he did it to see the two were remembered for the good they did, even if it wasn't always seen.

www.verbal-vomit.com/2011/07/harry-potter-needs-therapy.html

That link ^ is basically the funniest portrayal of Harry and his issues and the many concerns we've discussed about his psychology.

[HeraldMageAnduli]

Yeah, I like Albus Severus, that is a cute idea. But really, on the kids' names it's like she just ran out of creativity. She did the Black family after Constellations, the Evans family after flowers, there are Greek/Roman myths everywhere and then she comes up with James Sirius, Albus Severus and Lily Luna. I tend to disregard the Epilogue myself. I'm just glad she didn't do something that included DOBBY in a kids' name.
As far as the two we've been debating so far, I always liked Severus (I'm strange I know), hated Albus and Harry reminds me of Luke Skywalker in Star Wars (cheese with that whine?)

[G. Novella]

HAHA Dobby as a name. God, if they had a fourth kid, I can see it now, Dobby Rufus Potter

Rufus because he died for Harry too *rolls eyes*

[sherza]

Fifth kid:

Sybll Bellatrix ... 'cause if you're going to go all gooey about one enemy, why not another one? And the idiot woman that spouted the prophecy?

Sixth kid: Draconus Percival

... ok, I'ma stop before I get *really* mean.

[Animikokala]

Seventh: Thomas Peter Potter

Since we're using enemies anyways... ;D
Tom Peter Potter doesn't sound quite as good, but they could always call him "Tom" as his nickname.

And it would fit, you know, with the whole seven thing...

[sherza]

... a fic I'm reading just pointed out *another* reason to want to kick Dumbledore in the 'nads.

He's a legilimens.

Peter Pettigrew was a member of the Order. And is not an Occlumens.

Think about that one for a minute or two. Then tell me that Dumbledore didn't KNOW Pettigrew was a traitor.

[Kitty279]

You forgot to honour Dudley and Vernon! We need an eight child!

Sherza, I totally agree, I can't see any reason for Harry to forgive the people who ruined his life. In his place, I would most definitely NEVER do that. Not after the last ultimate betrayal by Dumbledore. Remember how he told Harry after Sirius' death he would tell him everything now? And it was once again a lie ...

As for Snape and Lily - IMO he only believed to love her, he just wanted her. He begged Voldemort to spare her, and I strongly suspect he believed she would then fall into his arms - never mind that his own idiocy just got her husband and son killed. And afterwards, he tortured and bullied her son for years. He never saw a touch of Lily in him until his dying moment, he only saw James, James, James and punished Harry for looking like the father he never even knew, thanks to Snape. If that's considered 'loving' Lily, then I don't want to know what happens when Snape hates someone ...

That's another thing up I had been wondering about. Throughout the series, I got more than once the impression that Dumbledore or Snape used Legilimency, legal or illegal. So, why did Dumbledore not notice? And besides, I find it hard to believe that Snape didn't know which one was a Death Eater - Peter or Sirius. And from what Sirius said in the Shack, my impression was that the arrested Death Eaters knew who the real traitor was. There have been so many possibilities to verify who was the traitor, but Dumbledore never bothered, he was content to have Sirius rot in hell and so keep control of his pawn.

[sherza]

Not to mention the fact that at that time, they were in the height of a WAR, in which anyone, at any time, could be replaced via Polyjuice, or hit with an Imperious. To NOT mind-scan members of the Order would have been literal suicide, as it'd be pretty much the only way to know your people are, you know, actually your people.

Actually, I can somewhat understand Snape not knowing about Peter. Snape went to Dumbledore very shortly after the Prophecy was made ... and according to Sirius or Remus, Peter had been spying for a year ... which is about the same length of time. However Snape spun the whole 'wiggling into Dumbledore's confidence' thing, if Voldemort had ANY brains whatever, he would not tell his newly minted spy about his OTHER newly minted spy, and would have kept them apart.

[Kitty279]

Very true.

Hm ... you have a point. Ok, Snape probably didn't know, but so many others did. But that's a problem the whole wizarding world has - they have so many ways to ascertain the truth, but don't use them - pensieve memories, Veritaserum ... and they seem to ask only for what a certain person did, not what they know about their accomplices. No wonder so many got free on the excuse of Imperius.

[lucyolsen]

They need another daughter, you know. I think she should be named Delores Pansy Potter.

[ginnyrules27]

Jun 12, 2012 1:20:34 GMT -5 lucyolsen said:

They need another daughter, you know. I think she should be named Delores Pansy Potter.

What about Bertha Hedwig Potter? You know, Harry'd want to honor Bertha Jorkins, a woman who lost her life and was spoken ill of in death until people realized that she WAS DEAD!