sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jul 6, 2012 21:05:49 GMT -5
But Dursleys have never starved Harry. Everybody is making a big deal of the three days in second book. In fact he said himself that he wasn't starved and in the first book his punishment was to go to bed without dinner (which he had because he sneaked for food). That's not something weird. In his age I hated food and ate once a day and it didn't harm me in any way. I have outgrown my mother. Harry had normally three meals a day. He had probably less then Dudley but then that's just for the best (I don't think you want Harry to be the same size as Dudley). I think that fannon is influencing you too much. Yeah Dursleys were never nice to Harry but they were rather "barking instead of biting". They mistreated him, yes, and the three days can be called abuse but I don't think they would ever starve him so much it would stun Harry's growth. By the way sorry for my English. It's not my first language. I agree about them not starving him, I just don't think they fed him enough, which tells me they did feed him, except during those three days in book 2. He still got food during the summers, even if it wasn't healthy food, and as I said earlier, I think Pomfrey gave him nutrient potions when he was in the hospital wing. There's also the possibility that Molly may have done something similar when she sent those meat pies that were mentioned in book 4. Seriously, you two? Are you shitting me? There are REGULAR mentions, in practically every book, that indicate that not only did the Dursleys deprive Harry of food, they didn't feed him the right sort of foods when he did get to eat. Harry says straight out in PS that 'he never got to eat as much as he wanted' ... which meant he went hungry. Which means he wasn't getting the sheer calories he needed for optimal growth. Further, the meals we DID see him get were ... horrifying. One chunk of cheese and two pieces of bread, after a LONG day of physically demanding chores? I don't freaking think so. A quarter of a grapefruit for breakfast? A single bowl of soup ... which is the best of the lot? And the backup food he got from the Weasleys/Hermione was almost all candy! This means that Harry was probably chronically short on vital vitamins and minerals needed for growing children. And has been said in other threads ... do NOT take an abused child's word on what is abuse and what isn't. They have a distressing tendency of thinking that the horrifying treatment they are subjected to is either normal, or they deserve it. Harry's comment about 'not exactly being starved' is ... yeah. Given the evidence we're shown, he's thinking 'Ethiopian kids' starved, or something. |
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 6, 2012 21:12:26 GMT -5
Shezra, you took the words out of my brain! Kudos to you for doing so!
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Post by viralic1 on Jul 6, 2012 21:13:33 GMT -5
Lol yeah, same. I said something to that effect in another thread, I just couldn't be bothered to dig it up and copy and paste it.
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jul 6, 2012 21:22:27 GMT -5
You're welcome, you two.
*headshakes*
Really, people, there are different levels of 'starved'.
1) Those horrifying pictures of kids with sticks for limbs, skulls with skin stretched over for heads and bloated bellies. This is pretty much 'I am a few days from dying of hunger'.
2) Losing weight and lethargic = this is the next-best stage of straight-up starvation.
3) No weight lost yet, starvingly hungry (the later two stages generally are so far gone they don't feel the hunger anymore), stomach shrunken to the point where eating becomes problematic. If the books were portrayed at all realistically, this is where Harry would be at much of the time pre-Hogwarts and during the summers post-Hogwarts.
4) Not actually starved, but badly deficient in something: This one manifests itself as being starvingly hungry for certain foods ... usually the stuff that's high in whatever you're low on that you happen to like the taste of.
5) Not actually starved, but consistently fed less than you actually need: results in chronic hunger.
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 6, 2012 21:26:15 GMT -5
We all have our own opinions of what Harry's life was like, and while you may convince some people that you're right, you won't convince me!
While I may think there are things in the books that are wrong, there are others that I believe in, and WILL NOT CHANGE MY MIND!!
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 6, 2012 21:27:21 GMT -5
That's fine by me. It's the beauty of being part of a fandom, you know. We all form our own opinions.
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Post by chikina on Jul 6, 2012 21:35:55 GMT -5
I agree about them not starving him, I just don't think they fed him enough, which tells me they did feed him, except during those three days in book 2. He still got food during the summers, even if it wasn't healthy food, and as I said earlier, I think Pomfrey gave him nutrient potions when he was in the hospital wing. There's also the possibility that Molly may have done something similar when she sent those meat pies that were mentioned in book 4. Seriously, you two? Are you shitting me? There are REGULAR mentions, in practically every book, that indicate that not only did the Dursleys deprive Harry of food, they didn't feed him the right sort of foods when he did get to eat. Harry says straight out in PS that 'he never got to eat as much as he wanted' ... which meant he went hungry. Which means he wasn't getting the sheer calories he needed for optimal growth. Further, the meals we DID see him get were ... horrifying. One chunk of cheese and two pieces of bread, after a LONG day of physically demanding chores? I don't freaking think so. A quarter of a grapefruit for breakfast? A single bowl of soup ... which is the best of the lot? And the backup food he got from the Weasleys/Hermione was almost all candy! This means that Harry was probably chronically short on vital vitamins and minerals needed for growing children. And has been said in other threads ... do NOT take an abused child's word on what is abuse and what isn't. They have a distressing tendency of thinking that the horrifying treatment they are subjected to is either normal, or they deserve it. Harry's comment about 'not exactly being starved' is ... yeah. Given the evidence we're shown, he's thinking 'Ethiopian kids' starved, or something. Yeah like I said, they treated him so bad the three days in the second book. I guess they were terrified of him. But quarter of grapefruit for breakfast? That's enough. Most people I know don't even have breakfast and wait for lunch like me. One doesn't have time to have breakfast when you need to get to school. To have a bit of fruit to start a day is good. More then I ever had. According to your theory about stunned growth I would be 5' instead of 5' 6. I was always underweight and didn't touch vegetables with ten feet long pole. Still don't. And if you look at Ethiopian men they're not exactly short either even when they sure were malnourished through the childhood. And about the candy...it's not true. Here goes few lines from GoF: Hedwig had returned from Hermione's house with a large box stuffed full of sugar-free snacks.
Mrs. Weasley, however, had sent the family owl, Errol, with an enormous fruitcake and assorted meat pies.So that's not bad. He got the cakes and candy after his birthday. |
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jul 6, 2012 21:46:22 GMT -5
Ok ...
1) The quote about the bread and cheese? was NOT during the three-day timespan. That was, I believe, the day the Masons arrived.
2) I said it was MOSTLY candy. Fruitcake is a dessert. Yes, it has fruit in it, but it's still mostly stuff that's bad for you. The meat pies were the only exception to that. Harry *still* was not getting anywhere near enough calories OR vitamins/minerals.
3) Just because you don't eat breakfast means no one should. Most people, actually, do eat breakfast.
4) I'll also bet that despite your dislike for veggies, your parents managed to get the necessary vitamins and minerals into you some other way ... kid's vitamins, if nothing else. Petunia and Vernon did nothing of the sort for Harry.
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 6, 2012 21:47:48 GMT -5
And being locked in a cupboard for periods of time would have contributed to a gross lack of sunlight, and we all know how bad that can be for children.
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jul 6, 2012 21:54:46 GMT -5
And being locked in a cupboard for periods of time would have contributed to a gross lack of sunlight, and we all know how bad that can be for children. Especially since Harry probably spent the bulk of his summers locked away ... when the sunlight would be strongest and most prevalent. The Dursleys couldn't risk locking him away for days at a time during the school year, because he'd be missed, but during the summer? I'll bet he spent a lot of time in there. And we know he spent his 'longest ever punishment' in the cupboard for the snake incident. Which, depending on when school let out, was anywhere from a week to a month (it mentions summer hols had started before he was let out) Which is completely horrifying. |
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 6, 2012 21:56:19 GMT -5
Well, Dudley's birthday is a month after Harry's I think, so it would have been close to a month that Harry was locked up.
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 6, 2012 21:56:29 GMT -5
And yes, that is horrifying.
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Post by ykickamoocow on Jul 6, 2012 22:02:25 GMT -5
I think people are thinking way to deeply on this. I doubt JKR took into account any food issues when she was writing Harry's height other than him being a bit underweight.
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 6, 2012 22:04:16 GMT -5
But that is why we end up thinking deeply about it - because it was so grossly swept under the rug. You can't just imply abuse and neglect and get away with it! I love Rowling for making the series, but this is a serious plothole that shouldn't be overlooked.
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 6, 2012 22:07:12 GMT -5
Well, Dudley's birthday is a month after Harry's I think, so it would have been close to a month that Harry was locked up. Dudley was born on the 23rd June, and I always thought that term ended on the 2nd or 3rd July, so Harry would have spent about a week and a half in the cupboard. And after he was let out, he spent most of that summer outside, avoiding Dudley's gang, so he would have got quite a bit of sunlight then. And after he started Hogwarts, he did go outside a lot, so he obviously got enough sunlight. |
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 6, 2012 22:09:46 GMT -5
Well, I just checked HPL and I was wrong. I'll admit that. So, maybe around a week or two. That's still a long time to be trapped in a cupboard. A dirty, spider infested cupboard. That's not healthy, and it was far from the first time it happened.
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Post by chikina on Jul 6, 2012 22:34:27 GMT -5
And being locked in a cupboard for periods of time would have contributed to a gross lack of sunlight, and we all know how bad that can be for children. Especially since Harry probably spent the bulk of his summers locked away ... when the sunlight would be strongest and most prevalent. The Dursleys couldn't risk locking him away for days at a time during the school year, because he'd be missed, but during the summer? I'll bet he spent a lot of time in there. And we know he spent his 'longest ever punishment' in the cupboard for the snake incident. Which, depending on when school let out, was anywhere from a week to a month (it mentions summer hols had started before he was let out) Which is completely horrifying. Well Dudley's birthday is 23th June. But I would expect that he would be out during holiday. To work on the garden or they would chase him out and he would probably go to a playground. |
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jul 6, 2012 22:47:12 GMT -5
At least until something happened to piss them off, and then right in the cupboard he'd go. Again.
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 6, 2012 22:48:58 GMT -5
I'm surprised Harry didn't develop lung problems from inhaling all that dust.
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Post by Dimcairien on Jul 6, 2012 23:07:34 GMT -5
Who knows, maybe he developed asthma. In fact, I might have that show up in my afterwords story or perhaps during the actual reading. I've already revealed that Harry is claustrophobic in my head canon.
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 6, 2012 23:08:23 GMT -5
*nods* It really makes a lot of sense.
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Post by cidcarter on Jul 7, 2012 7:48:57 GMT -5
hi there is a few thing that i would like to point out. so some background I'm in the Navy i have frinds that are Army and Marines the only way to get them and me to talk about stuff that we saw and/or did is to be with someone that when thour something sim. i think that Harry and crew are going to be simaler to that you can get thout it w/o going to a healer as long as he talked to Ron or Herm or even Ginny, Luna, or Nev. and to whoever said that the Durlys were all bark no bite well i can say you are wrong the books said a few times were they bite
SS. "Poke him with your Smelting stick, Dudley."
CoS As neither Dudley nor the hedge was in any way hurt, Aunt Petunia knew he hadn't really done magic, but he still had to duck as she aimed a heavy blow at his head with the soapy frying pan.
PoA "You'll get the stuffing knocked out of you, won't you?" roared Uncle Vernon, advancing on Harry with his fist raised.
and this only what we read about. they would of done more
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Post by SkullAuror107 on Jul 7, 2012 13:10:22 GMT -5
I agree with cidcarter on that the Dursley's had just as much bite as bark. Vernon tried to strangle Harry in OotP. That doesn't just happen out of nowhere or in the heat of the moment. Also, in CoS Vernon threatened to "flay him to within an inch of his life" and "was as bad as his word." That speaks to more then just bars and locks. To me that says he followed through on his threat of physical violence. Just because we don't see something spelled out in the books doesn't mean it didn't happen.
As for the issue with food, of course they starved Harry. Yes in PS Harry says they never actually starved him, but as it has been pointed out people in that situation will rarely admit that there is a problem or how bad the problem is. Also you need to take into account that Harry was 10, going on 11. All he knew was life with the Dursely's and he probably didn't understand the severity of the situation. He knew his situation was bad (after all, he did wish someone would take him away) but he didn't know how bad it was. He does eventually admit that the Dursley's starved him. He doesn't admit it out loud, but during the Horcrux hunt he realizes that the periods of near starvation he suffered at the Dursely's kept him from getting into as bad a mood as Ron, who never suffered from lack of food.
To the person who said that when they were Harry's age they only ate once a day, I would like to point out that it was your choice to eat once a day and it was probably a big meal or at least a well balanced one. Harry didn't get an choice in how much he ate or what he ate (a can of cold soup is hardly a healthy meal for a growing boy). I'm sure if you were hungry outside that one meal a day you would go and get something to eat and you wouldn't be in trouble for it.
I think that given all this and being confined to a small, dark space for much of his life would contribute to his being on the short side. But the fact that he was nearly as tall as his dad (who was said to be tall) leads me to believe that this was counteracted in some way. Most likely by Madam Pomfrey during his stays in the hospital wing.
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 7, 2012 13:50:37 GMT -5
Skull, I believe that you are correct on all counts, and I love how you spelled all of this out. I don't know of Madam Pomfrey was the reason this was fixed or not, I lean more towards his magic fixing him up. I say that because Harry's magic is rather strong, and yet he had issues with Dementors. What if Harry's magic is tied up in keeping his body from failing him?
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jul 7, 2012 14:54:46 GMT -5
Also, in CoS Vernon threatened to 'flay him to within an inch of his life' and 'was as bad as his word.'. Holy shit ... how'd I skim past THAT incident? I remembered the others but I don't remember that one. *cringe*. I totally agree with you skullauror, and with cidcarter as well, though I will contend that speaking to Ron and company wouldn't have been enough to help Harry. While they did go through PARTS of the same adventures, with the exception of the Horcrux hunt, not a one of them went through ALL of the adventures and events that Harry did. On top of that, the only one who might possibly have some experience with abuse is Hermione (and that is questionable ... I just wonder due to the fact she seemed entirely ok with seeing her parents for a grand total of a week or so a year, and obliviated them). Worse, Ron is tactless, and Hermione a bossy know-it-all. Ron would probably blurt out some rather hurtful things ala 'you have no family' (yes, he said that under the influence of a Horcrux, but the fact remains he's pretty much that tactless throught the books) and Hermione would demand Harry deal with things the way SHE thinks he should, and on her timetable, and would be diagnosing him basd on book definitions and no TRUE knowledge and experience. Not a good recipe for dealing with the damage Harry's life left him with. |
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 7, 2012 14:58:04 GMT -5
I agree, Shezra, it would probably make him feel a lot worse about himself.
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Post by brokenquill92 on Jul 7, 2012 15:07:22 GMT -5
I'm bbbbbbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacccckkkk!!! Giggles they caught me and took my laptop but I still have my iPad giggle
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 7, 2012 15:11:59 GMT -5
Hahaha oh dear. You're quite the trouble maker, aren't you?  |
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Post by SkullAuror107 on Jul 7, 2012 15:17:48 GMT -5
Skull, I believe that you are correct on all counts, and I love how you spelled all of this out. I don't know of Madam Pomfrey was the reason this was fixed or not, I lean more towards his magic fixing him up. I say that because Harry's magic is rather strong, and yet he had issues with Dementors. What if Harry's magic is tied up in keeping his body from failing him? I think it's definitely possible that his magic was tied into his health. Madam Pomfrey couldn't keep an eye on him at all times, so I think she was only able to help when he spent the night in the hospital wing. Which would explain why she always wants to keep him in there longer then he needs to be. And I'm not so sure about the house elves slipping potions into his meals. While it might be possible to happen there are a lot of things to factor into that. For one the elves would have to know what Harry was going to be eating and drinking during the meal and where he was going to be sitting at the table...or if he was even going to be at the table (maybe he decided to skip a meal or something). I also think it's highly unlikely that the Dursley's would take Harry to the hospital and therefore his magic would have to step in to keep him healthy. Not to mention the fact that magicals seem to be able to take a lot more damage then non-magicals. For example, Bludgers are made of iron and are 10 inches in diameter. That's a very heavy ball that flies around and attacks players. And I'm sure it has more force in it when it's been hit at someone. And yet the most damage we see from them are broken noses, an arm and the person usually getting the wind knocked out of them. Another example would be when Harry and Ron crashed into the Whomping Willow. They walked away from that with a small cut and bump on the head and while the hospital wing was recommended it didn't seem as if a mandatory visit was required. These things sound like they can kill a person or at least seriously injure them and yet they don't seem to phase the common witch or wizard. Also, in CoS Vernon threatened to 'flay him to within an inch of his life' and 'was as bad as his word.'. Holy shit ... how'd I skim past THAT incident? I remembered the others but I don't remember that one. *cringe*. I totally agree with you skullauror, and with cidcarter as well, though I will contend that speaking to Ron and company wouldn't have been enough to help Harry. While they did go through PARTS of the same adventures, with the exception of the Horcrux hunt, not a one of them went through ALL of the adventures and events that Harry did. On top of that, the only one who might possibly have some experience with abuse is Hermione (and that is questionable ... I just wonder due to the fact she seemed entirely ok with seeing her parents for a grand total of a week or so a year, and obliviated them). Worse, Ron is tactless, and Hermione a bossy know-it-all. Ron would probably blurt out some rather hurtful things ala 'you have no family' (yes, he said that under the influence of a Horcrux, but the fact remains he's pretty much that tactless throught the books) and Hermione would demand Harry deal with things the way SHE thinks he should, and on her timetable, and would be diagnosing him basd on book definitions and no TRUE knowledge and experience. Not a good recipe for dealing with the damage Harry's life left him with. I agree with you on Ron and Hermione not being able to help Harry much. Their reactions would probably convince him that it was a bad idea to open up to anyone at all. The only person I can see Harry talking to who would be able to help would be Sirius. Sirius had a similar upbringing to Harry so he would understand what Harry's going through. He also knows what it's like to deal with the expectations your name gives you. As for the CoS thing, the only reason I caught that was due to recently reading the book, otherwise I wouldn't have remembered it at all. |
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jul 7, 2012 15:33:57 GMT -5
Yet another reason for me to be angry at JKR for killing Sirius off ... he was pretty much the only one who could help Harry ... other than Severus, and THAT would only work if Severus had his head out of his ass from the start and never went after Harry for the crime of being his father's child.
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