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Post by ShotgunWilly on Jun 12, 2012 18:12:45 GMT -5
Well, I'll accept that Molly was asked by Dumbledore to keep an eye out for Harry and help him to the platform, but all of that went together just a tad bit too haphazardly with too many coincidences for me to believe it was entirely a Manipulative!Dumbledore setup. It's entirely probable that there was something behind Molly's asking; I always get the impression that she was talking to Ginny directly, either teasing her or perhaps legitimately quizzing her on Hogwarts knowledge or perhaps it was her first time seeing her brothers off from the platform (I find this hard to believe, but not impossible) and Molly wanted to be sure she knew. Any number of things really.
Now, almost all the events at Hogwarts with PS after the troll... that was very likely a Manipulative!Dumbledore setup; even Harry admits it in a way.
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Silvertongue
Headmaster/Headmistress
I've got Slytherin Pride
Posts: 1,595
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Post by Silvertongue on Jun 12, 2012 18:29:28 GMT -5
Harry definitely admits it in Chapter 17: The Man With Two Faces, and nearly everything in Harry's life is orchestrated by Dumbledore, except maybe the CoS. He wouldn't have wanted that to happen (in canon), but I don't think he did much to stop the tournament. How is it possible for someone to enter somebody else's name from a school not taking part into the Goblet like that if there were supposed to be protections? Maybe he just overlooked that and it was a genuine mistake but it just seems ridiculous, knowing Harry has enemies even within school, and not just Harry but anyone really. You'd think he'd have thought of something like that. Everything else was most definitely planned.
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Post by kumainpink on Jun 12, 2012 18:33:23 GMT -5
Harry definitely admits it in Chapter 17: The Man With Two Faces, and nearly everything in Harry's life is orchestrated by Dumbledore, except maybe the CoS. He wouldn't have wanted that to happen (in canon), but I don't think he did much to stop the tournament. How is it possible for someone to enter somebody else's name from a school not taking part into the Goblet like that if there were supposed to be protections? Maybe he just overlooked that and it was a genuine mistake but it just seems ridiculous, knowing Harry has enemies even within school, and not just Harry but anyone really. You'd think he'd have thought of something like that. Everything else was most definitely planned. I think Dumbledore wanted Harry to be entered, or at least attempted to enter him as the Hogwarts Champion. He would see it as a way of training Harry and making him "tougher". But Crouch did one better and entered Harry in another school. But yes, it had to be planned. |
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Post by heraldofdreams on Jun 12, 2012 20:03:09 GMT -5
Right, I had to create an account just to keep track of this particularly stimulating conversation. I hate to get off the current topic but THIS is the reason why I hate Molly Weasley. One: Her blatant favoritism of Percy. She is CONSTANTLY comparing her kids to Percy, less so to Bill and he's the oldest one. Percy was a stuck-up idiot from the word 'go' and she ignored his inner personality and then cries when he abandons her. Duh, saw that coming a while ago. Two: The money issue. This one is really annoying to me. In SS she gets Percy a new owl and robes for 'being a Prefect'. Not only does this go hand-in-hand with her favoritism issue but I'm guessing robes and owls aren't cheap. So Ron get's his brother Charlie's old wand and Ginny gets all her stuff second-hand for her first year, despite being the much vaunted daughter. Three: Why that many kids? Answer: Molly wanted a daughter and instead of stopping where their family could afford it (Fred and George would be the stretch), they keep going and going until FINALLY Molly gets her little mini-me. I refuse to believe there isn't a wizarding version of birth control, not every family is like theirs. In that case I understand the Malfoy's scorn, they are stretching themselves beyond their means and making their kids resentful of each other. Four: Harry. One minute she acts like she loves him, the next she's refusing to believe he was being starved. I don't care what kind of pranksters Fred and George are, they're not the type to 'cry wolf' as it were. She can tell how much Sirius means to him and yet she's awful to him ("Oh yes, but you weren't really caring for him, were you?") Azkaban prison ring a bell, Molly? Five: The mother-henning. Sure she loves her kids, but she was pushing F&G away from what they loved and trying to put them in a Ministry career, one that SHE approved of. Sure they could have crashed and burned, but they needed to live their own life. Constantly demeaning their talents and hard work, tossing away their joke products and screeching about school grades isn't the way to raise a pair of 'intelligent' kids in my opinion. Because whatever opinion people have on Fred and George, they HAD to have a lot of talent and intelligence to do what they did. Long-winded rant over, sorry about that but I'm glad to get it out.  |
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Post by basketsarah120 on Jun 12, 2012 20:38:18 GMT -5
I hate Molly too. She is too stuck up Dumbledore's ass to see it. Instead of getting the owl or new robes for Percy, she should've made sure Ron the other kids where taken care of first. His own wand was more important then that. It's no wonder Ron has a superiority complex. I can't stand her! And she raises Percy to be perfect, and he's the only one that did what she wanted. Fred and George where smart, and brilliant. They wouldn't have been able to make those products if they didn't. Her talking down on them made them pull away farther.
I like Arthur, but don't get me started on him. Where was he during this time?
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Post by G. Novella on Jun 12, 2012 20:58:39 GMT -5
Working because they're dirt poor due to economic mismanagement and a galleon only being ten dollars and they should all be dead because they have no money for anything! Seriously.
A JKR and editor convo, brought by me:
JKR: La di da, okay done this chapter.
Editor: Wow, the Weasleys don't even have a galleon? That's so sad, wait, how much is a galleon again?
JKR: Its worth a galleon
Editor: No, I mean in pounds
JKR: Um, I don't know, the wizards don't care. They have magic money.
Editor: What about muggleborns?
JKR: Oh fine, five pounds, happy?
Editor: yes, wait, no, how do the Weasleys buy things with that money? I mean, everything in this world is in galleons!
JKR: They're poor, thats the point,
Editor: No, see, they have a house, several broomsticks, books, etc, how on earth did they buy that stuff?
JKR: um, they have magic. It works, trust me.
Editor: I'm going to see if I can get raise, this job is so not worth what I'm getting right now
JKR: that's the spirit, ask if you can get paid in galleons!
Editor: And I think I'll buy you a book on math and poverty to add to the unread collection on abuse and psychology
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jun 12, 2012 21:07:01 GMT -5
*falls over snickering* oh man ... sad thing is, I can actually see that happening.
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Post by G. Novella on Jun 12, 2012 21:23:56 GMT -5
On another note, why even bother creating sickles and knuts? They're never used, ever. If they need sickles then get rid of the knut!
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jun 12, 2012 21:32:41 GMT -5
I think JKR was attempting to do something on the order of
'big bill (say, $100) (galleon)
Little bill (say, $10) (sickle)
Loose change ($1 or less) knut
But she sucked hardcore at maths, and failed.
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Post by G. Novella on Jun 12, 2012 21:35:40 GMT -5
But, but a wand is seven galleons... So, she implied a wand is seven hundred dollars... And its the neccessity all wizard kids need to control their magic and not kill anyone.
Oh my god. Those poor kids who couldn't afford wands and their parents had to take loans and were sold in slavery to goblins to save their children..I really want to make a crack!fic about that, and I wasn't even able to write the sentence and keep a straight face.
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Post by lucyolsen on Jun 12, 2012 21:37:58 GMT -5
The first two books are consistent with those values, but after that is when a galleon became worth much less, as you can see from the pricing of the items at the twin's shop: www.hp-lexicon.org/wizworld/wheezes.html |
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jun 12, 2012 21:45:18 GMT -5
Well, seven hundred dollars for a wand isn't, actually, that out there.
It is, after all, a one-of-a-kind instrument, generally only purchased once in your life unless you're clumsy with it, that enables you to use magic. It being high-priced is NOT out of the realm of sanity at all.
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Post by G. Novella on Jun 12, 2012 21:46:51 GMT -5
Yes, but, its the basic tool every kid needs. Like a calculator, I'd understand maybe two hundred dollars. But seven hundred? Shouldn't there be some method to pay it off slowly, or a ministry reimbursement or something?
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Post by lucyolsen on Jun 12, 2012 21:54:36 GMT -5
Yeah, but the canon rates suggests that a one-of-a-kind handmade magical item that very few people know how to create is worth around $70. I don't think that ten times that amount is too out there.
And $100 was just something to throw out, maybe a galleon should have only been worth $50, and maybe Harry's wand was a bit more expensive than others due to the core.
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jun 12, 2012 21:57:02 GMT -5
Exactly. Everyone HAS to have one.
Supply and demand, my dear. This is an absolute must-have, once-in-a-lifeitme purchase and from the looks of things, Ollivander has a monopoly on Britain's wand supply. Is it expensive as all heck? Yes. But it doesn't surprise me in the least that it is.
$100 may be a bit much per galleon, but that's just me doing a wild guess as to its possible value. It could well be less, but if its value is at all based on gold's market value, $100 would be about right.
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Post by G. Novella on Jun 12, 2012 21:58:35 GMT -5
Still more reasonable I guess. Its just, has the magical world adopted no kind of social security os socialistic government? I really wonder how they'd be if they'd had a better government system
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 13, 2012 1:22:31 GMT -5
They'd probably cut the power of the pureblood bigots, and you can't do that, right? They want to stay in power forever.
A pity we don't really know how things changed under Kingsley. It would be interesting to know.
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Silvertongue
Headmaster/Headmistress
I've got Slytherin Pride
Posts: 1,595
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Post by Silvertongue on Jun 13, 2012 6:24:44 GMT -5
Guys, you're getting the maths wrong. A Galleon is $10 not $100. So a wand would be the equivalent of $70 not $700. I think it all depends on how much each job pays too. I mean, you'd probably get a lot as a healer but not for stan Shunpike's job.
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Post by kumainpink on Jun 13, 2012 8:10:40 GMT -5
And there's quite a bit of difference between 700 and 70...
With that as the case, the wand really should have come before Percy's new robes... just saying.
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Post by Miss Wings on Jun 13, 2012 8:14:40 GMT -5
Or how to find the Hogwarts Express. Something Hagrid forgot, as we all know. I don't think that Hagrid did forget. Remember Molly's word's? "What's the name of the platform number?" Hell she's a pureblood! She would know, I smell 1 of Dumbledore's manipulations..... After all it is easier to mold Harry if he was friends with 1 of Dumbledore's groupies.. |
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Post by Ithiarel on Jun 15, 2012 14:40:32 GMT -5
Dumbledore was a bloody hypocrite. That alone is reason for me not to like him.
Remember, when he first met 11 year old Tom? He immediately put him into a mental box labeld "evil" and more or less washed his hands of him. Considering that Dumbledore himself still planned the subjugation of muggles at the age of 17 I find that pretty hypocritical of him.
He of all people should know that there is always a chance for changing a person. He himself got a second chance, but in my opinion, he never even gave a first chance to Tom...
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 15, 2012 14:43:08 GMT -5
But later on, he gave lots of second, third and more changes to proven Death Eaters. However, the people on the good side who were killed by these Death Eaters on their umpteenth chance, never got a change themselves.
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Post by kumainpink on Jun 15, 2012 14:46:11 GMT -5
Dumbledore was a bloody hypocrite. That alone is reason for me not to like him. Remember, when he first met 11 year old Tom? He immediately put him into a mental box labeld "evil" and more or less washed his hands of him. Considering that Dumbledore himself still planned the subjugation of muggles at the age of 17 I find that pretty hypocritical of him. He of all people should know that there is always a chance for changing a person. He himself got a second chance, but in my opinion, he never even gave a first chance to Tom... A great point, and one that I didn't even think about until you mentioned it. *sighs* It's kinda weird looking at him now, considering I used to love him as a kid.  |
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Post by Ithiarel on Jun 15, 2012 14:52:17 GMT -5
Exactly.
There is something really wrong with Dumbledores perceptions on who deserves second chances.
No. Scratch that.
I think, what is wrong is the fact that he believes he has the right to actually give second chances. Because imo most of the time he doesn't actually have that right. Second chances need to come from the person needing them. If they don't want to change, then a second chance is worth nothing at all. It's casting pearls before swine.
And the instant dislike Dumbledore took to Tom seems to me even worse than the one Snape felt for Harry. At least Snape had a history with Harry's parents. Dumbledore didn't have that excuse. He'd never even heard of Tom before meeting him. But he took such an instant dislike, to an eleven year old child, that he happily took the out Tom offered him to not spend an afternoon with him shopping for school stuff. When, as a teacher, it was his clear duty to do so...
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Post by kumainpink on Jun 15, 2012 14:54:55 GMT -5
Now that you mention it, that is horrible. That's just one of the many things that doesn't sit right in HBP.  I love Rowling, but I loathe HBP entirely. |
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 15, 2012 14:57:23 GMT -5
And to make up for neglecting Riddle, he went to the other extreme when it came to Harry, orchestrating his whole life from before he was born till his death at Voldemort's hands ...
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Post by kumainpink on Jun 15, 2012 14:59:00 GMT -5
And of course, it ended badly. Dumbles would be better off leaving his crooked nose out of things! >=[
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 15, 2012 15:00:07 GMT -5
But he is convinced he's the only one who knows what is best for everyone else. And if that's dying, then it's for the Greater Good.
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Post by Ithiarel on Jun 15, 2012 15:02:38 GMT -5
Kinda makes you wonder exactly how much he actually reformed, doesn't it?
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Post by kumainpink on Jun 15, 2012 15:05:43 GMT -5
Yuck... I hate that phrase so very much!
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I love Rowling, but I loathe HBP entirely.