Living In A Cupboard

[kumainpink]

Do you think Harry's cupboard should or shouldn't be made a big deal in Characters Read stories?

To me, it seems like a strange, sick sort of wrongness. It can't be healthy to be shut away for long periods of time in a cupboard under the stairs. Not with spiders, dust and limited space.

But the emotional aspect is what really gets me. Vermin and Tuna are doing more than locking a child away when they put him there. Essentially, they're telling Harry that it's better if he remains hidden from everyone. It's kind of chilling, really.

[Dimcairien]

I agree that it's hard to get the balance. I had a fairly strong outburst when that incident occurred originally, but as I'm editing my stories, I'm making some of the reactions more realistic and grown-up. I still have a powerful outburst, but also some silent anger.

I do think that Harry's insecurity and tendency to not ask for help comes from the fact that he was shut away for the first ten years.

The first couple of years of life are essential to developing character, whether it comes naturally or is forced. Harry's quiet, independent nature was forced on him because of neglect.

[ShotgunWilly]

I don't think it wouldn't be IC for the characters not to be shocked and make a deal out of it, but perhaps but a huge one. Harry would probably have a temper flare at the pitying looks and try to stop that real fast

That said, one thing that occasionally annoys me is when Snape goes "I didn't know..." or some variation thereof when the cupboard is mentioned. I find it hard to believe that he didn't know about the cupboard and all from occlumency lessons, but he didn't seem to care at all. *shrug*

One thing that really gets on my nerves is when Harry gets really angsty/emotional. I think it was "Under a Watchful Eye" that I'm thinking of; that Harry would sometimes annoy me to no end, not that it stopped me from reading of course. lol

I agree about the cupboard, though it's hard for me to tell if Harry turned out better or worse than he would have if he had been given Dudley's 2nd room from the start but was still yelled at treated like trash by the Dursleys. It might not have effected anything at all; instead of being locked in a cupboard, he'd spend most of his time in a locked up, probably barred up, small, dingy bedroom. It's hard to tell.

And I think that's probably exactly what they were telling Harry; he should neither be seen nor heard, as "freaks" like him should be. *shrug*

[lucyolsen]

I am not sure that Snape was actually paying any attention to the memories that he dug up. I am fairly certain he said something to that effect. I think that he only barely saw Ripper in Harry's memories.

[Choices HP]

Personal, I usually use the characters reaction to finding out that Harry slept in a cupboard as a way to tell if the story is something I want to read. I just feel that it's one of the first moments in the series that something major is mentioned and I get a few for the characters that are being portrayed.

[mountaingirl777]

Jun 8, 2012 1:46:15 GMT -5 Choices HP said:

Personal, I usually use the characters reaction to finding out that Harry slept in a cupboard as a way to tell if the story is something I want to read. I just feel that it's one of the first moments in the series that something major is mentioned and I get a few for the characters that are being portrayed.

I do that too!

[Animikokala]

To be honest, if the characters care about Harry at all, they should make a big stink about it no matter how upset it may make Harry. Abuse is abuse, and the abused child will be ashamed, in denial, or angry (or all of these) when said abuse is brought up.

Now I've seen a lot of fanfics where the abuse is pushed to the extreme (Harry being whipped raw/forced to wear a collar and chained to the wall/etc), but it can't be denied that both neglect and physical abuse occurred in canon.

Locked in a cupboard; later locked in bedroom with bars on the window and a cat flap on the door for food
Food withheld as a punishment, plus the whole "the Dursley's had never exactly starved Harry" -PS (just to start with)
Forced to cook by age 10 (and obviously it isn't his first time cooking on Dudley's birthday) forced to do a large number of chores without rest (CS)
Dudley's physical abuse of Harry is allowed
Obvious emotional and verbal abuse - Harry himself states that the Dursleys think he's a "waste of space" (DH)
Physical abuse (and attempts) - had to dodge a blow from a frying pan (CS), the strangling in OOTP

And this is just some of the stuff that was mentioned; how do we know there isn't more? And the fact that Dumbledore knew Harry would not have a happy childhood is all the more damning.

[shinethedown]

Like Dimcarien said its about finding a balance that best fits the characters in the fic. With some characters (Ron Hermione etc) it would be shock, otherss fury (Molly, Ginny, Sirius etc). It all depends on which characters you have in the fic, if you have characters that are close to Harry then a big deal should probably be made, if they are not that close to Harry, then not as much. You just have to find the reaction that you think is best, and suits your fic.

[G. Novella]

I think Snape never really cared about the memories. In his mind, caring about Harry's life and having access to Harry's memories whilst being a Death Eater who was close to Voldemort was dangerous. So he just made a point of ignoring Harry's memories and barely grazing them. The little signs of abuse he must have picked on, such as Ripper, and being chased by Dudley must have registered more as Harry being bullied than abused.

But then, maybe I just love Snape too much. I do however feel that his dedication to Lily and his own abusive home life would have made him very much against abuse to anyone, including Harry. That's why he would have told someone

[Silvertongue]

I'm kind of sick of reading the same reactions to this over and over. Especially Molly immediately shrieking at the top of her lungs. I'd like to see something I little more muted. I imagine there would be a bit of silence before Hermione turned to Harry and asked quietly what it meant or if it was true.

This thread has made me wonder how I'd like the scene to play out in the fic I'm planning on writing.

[kumainpink]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I did the louder reactions for my first two CRs, but I have many more planned. And with the ones I'm planning, I'm going to explore different reactions to things. It's kind of hard to come up with a unique reaction to this, simply because it is such a horrendous thing that everyone comments on. I refuse to read a CR where people just ignore it.

So far, I haven't put Molly in either CR, but when I do, she isn't going to be screaming. I'm thinking of the fury we see in Molly just before she utters her infamous: "Not my daughter, you BITCH!" line. Only, she doesn't even shout - she's so angry that she can't even begin to form the words for it.

It always bothered me that nobody ever found out the true extent of Harry's home life. I think I'm not alone when I say that I used to want Sirius to confront the Dursleys. That would have been beyond epic.

[sherza]

The cupboard is a HUGE issue, and needs to be treated as such. I get ticked off when it's more or less brushed under the rug, or worse, people go 'Dumbledore always does the right thing, so this doesn't matter' GRRRRRRRRR.

That said, there are ways other than everyone exploding instantly verbally. There are definitely certain people that would be inclined to that reaction (Molly especially, unfortunately ... she tends to be a very loud person most of the time), but quieter rage followed by dragging Dumbledore into a room for a ... ahem ... 'bit of a chat' *eg* ... would be far better and more up the majority of peoples' alleys, reaction-wise ... along with some epic prank/revenge-hexing planning.

It's not impossible for Severus to not have known about the cupboard post-Occlumency ... it's not like he dug up every single solitary memory Harry possessed.

[Trilonias]

There are certain areas and points of interests that seem to require a lengthy discussion, much less major reactions. This is one of them. Depending on who is there, I suspect that things should be rather loud, silent and/or delayed reaction. The younger kids I usually suspect to turn to Harry or rally together, while the adults would either rally together or turn against certain folks, again, depending on who is there.

I can see Severus missing such an important fact, especially if he is predetermined to think of things in a certain way... like seeing only one scene of it, and assuming he was punished or hiding, not that he was forced to live there. Kinda like what he did in his own mind when Harry went there... Nor does it help that he must not show kindness to the boy, due to his spy position.

But yeah, that info there is not something to lightly pass over.

[ShotgunWilly]

Fair enough on Snape. I just know that he saw Marge's bulldog so why not other parts; it's not like JKR showed every detail of the lessons. *shrug*

[sn0rkack]

That is what I have one of the biggest problems with and this line right here from CoS...

"Dobby might have saved him from horrible happenings at Hogwarts, but the way things were going, he'd probley starve to death anyway."

Now, that could just be a 12 year-olds exaggeration of the situation, but still, locking him in his own and feeding him cold soup... People get all pissy when someone says Harry was abused, just because he wasn't beaten because they want to see Harry as this untouchable warrior but in my eyes, he was.

[sherza]

Jun 9, 2012 11:30:30 GMT -5 sn0rkack said:

People get all pissy when someone says Harry was abused, just because he wasn't beaten because they want to see Harry as this untouchable warrior but in my eyes, he was.

Oh man ... trust me, there is no 'in your eyes'. Harry WAS flat-out abused, pretty much every way except sexually, and anyone that says otherwise is delusional as all heck. JKR might never have come out and said 'Vernon and Petunia beat the crap out of Harry' but the proof they did is there. Vernon was *entirely* too comfortable with physically manhandling Harry ... grabbing him and dragging/throwing him, and he threatens to beat the crap out of Harry all the time as well. Petunia clearly thinks there's nothing wrong with trying to smack him upside the head with a frying pan. These are not the actions of people who have never raised a hand to the poor kid.

There's also (as animikokala pointed out) ample proof of abuse-by-neglect, via being locked in the cupboard/his room for long periods, bars on windows, etc. Not to mention things like them refusing to feed him properly ... a piece of cheese and bread is NOT a proper meal for a growing boy after a long day of chores.

You all don't know how bad I want to punt JKR for her exceedingly poor handling of the abuse issue ... 'cause Harry's not the only one that suffers from it. Neville gets it too, via his uncle at the very least (dropping him out a window/off Blackpool Pier ... WTF?), and possibly his grandmother, though that's more debatable (She seemed to be entirely too enamored of making Neville into a Frank clone). And Luna gets bullied viciously by her Housemates (stealing all her stuff). As an abuse survivor, the whole thing drives me mad, and could have, should have, been dealt with better.

[Choices HP]

I don't think anyone argues whether or not Harry was abused, because it's clear by cupboard alone that he was at least in the sense of neglect and being starved. It's the physical abuse that is argued about. I for one remember reading somewhere that JKR said that he wasn't physically abuse which I always take that to mean he wasn't. I think it's worth noting that psychological abuse that Harry had to endure is damning in it's own right. Even more than the cupboard, the fact that they never call him by his name, call a freak (or other things like that), yell at him if he dares ask question (and probably make any comment at all).

[kumainpink]

Jun 9, 2012 13:29:30 GMT -5 Choices HP said:

I don't think anyone argues whether or not Harry was abused, because it's clear by cupboard alone that he was at least in the sense of neglect and being starved. It's the physical abuse that is argued about. I for one remember reading somewhere that JKR said that he wasn't physically abuse which I always take that to mean he wasn't. I think it's worth noting that psychological abuse that Harry had to endure is damning in it's own right. Even more than the cupboard, the fact that they never call him by his name, call a freak (or other things like that), yell at him if he dares ask question (and probably make any comment at all).

While I disagree on the physical abuse part, (I believe that it happened), I do want to point out the psychological abuse you mentioned.

Not only do I agree with you, but I'd also like to add that the cupboard is also part of it. Being called a freak and a burden (among other things) and yelling at him if he dares ask a question would be pretty damaging on their own. Hell, psychological abuse is often harder to heal from. In my opinion, the cupboard reinforces the psychological aspect.

By locking him away, they're basically telling Harry that there really is something wrong with them; that their insults carry more weight and so they HAVE to lock him away. That his "freakishness" is bad enough to contaminate them. Something along those lines.

[sherza]

Believe it or not, Choices ... I've had people contest that Harry was abused at all.

Yeah, I boggled too. Apparently, for some people, unless there's blood and scars, it's not abuse.

JKR may have claimed there was no physical abuse, but ... yeah, she's lying. Or has a really poor grasp of how physically abusive people act. Vernon didn't so much as hesitate to STRANGLE Harry ... that right there tells me he's hit the kid before this. You just *don't* go from verbal smackdowns to strangling without doing something else between the two, much less grab a kid by the throat with absolutely no hesitation whatever. Ditto Petunia taking a swing at Harry with a frying pan. No non-physically-abusive person does that, period.

[blackroses77]

Harry was definitely physically abused there is no doubt about that and I don't understand why JKR would deny it when she wrote the physical abuse scenes herself for example grabbing/throwing Harry, the frying pan, the strangling. Vernon even threatened to flay him alive and the threat left Harry shaking, I doubt he would have taken the threat seriously if he hadn't been hit before. He would of just brushed it off if he was used to Vernon throwing out empty threats. But the cupboard should definitely garner a major reaction, and by major I don't mean just everybody screaming at the top of their lungs although I think shouting is a realistic first reaction but it should be followed by a good long discussion either right after the revelation or between chapters 2 and 3. Finding out a child was locked in a cupboard for almost ten years is a very big deal and should be treated as such. I know I determine whether or not I'm going to read a story based on the reactions of the vanishing glass chapter. If there isn't an appropriately big reaction to the cupboard not to mention the other examples of abuse in the chapter I rarely continue on with the story. And to take it a step further I also use the reactions of the characters to the dursley chapters of every other book to determine if I am going to continue reading the story or not.

[basketsarah120]

I agree Harry was abused in practically every way, but sexually.

[Kitty279]

Once again, Sherza, I have to agree with you. On all counts

If what we did read was all the (bodily) abuse that happened, I believe Harry would have reacted more frightened. Seeing how he took it as if they just had reached him the salt, it certainly looks like it was a regular occurence.

Maybe JKR denied it because she realised the horrible message her books already give - that abuse is ok and no reason for any adult to do anything, that it just has to be accepted. Admitting to even more abuse would make things worse.

[OculisCaeruleis]

I can't believe the neighbours didn't notice anything to be honest.

In the books, how did they not notice Vernon strangling Harry in OotP, when they all looked over to see what the Apparation noise was?

Way before that though, how did they not notice when Harry was a child?
I know for a fact that British teachers are taught to recognise signs of abuse and bulling (As a side note, why didn't they do anything about Dudley's treatment of Harry at school? They may have had no way of preventing it at home, but at school, surely...), so how on Earth did they miss it - especially if it had been going on Harry's entire life?
They could have - should have - contacted Child Services or whatever and got him out of Privet Drive. My only theory is that whenever they got close to doing so, in came Dumbledore with his Obliviates. Gotta keep Harry protected by his precious blood wards, after all...

[kumainpink]

That's a very good theory, Oculis, and one that I share! I think the whole setup reeked way too much of Dumbledore's meddling.

[Silvertongue]

Speaking of Blood wards, after the fourth book, wouldn't they also protect Voldemort, seeing as he has Harry's blood himself.

[OculisCaeruleis]

Yeah, that's something that's always bugged me.
And by then they would have been void anyway.

[sherza]

Jun 13, 2012 14:11:22 GMT -5 OculisCaeruleis said:

I can't believe the neighbours didn't notice anything to be honest.

In the books, how did they not notice Vernon strangling Harry in OotP, when they all looked over to see what the Apparation noise was?

Way before that though, how did they not notice when Harry was a child?
I know for a fact that British teachers are taught to recognise signs of abuse and bulling (As a side note, why didn't they do anything about Dudley's treatment of Harry at school? They may have had no way of preventing it at home, but at school, surely...), so how on Earth did they miss it - especially if it had been going on Harry's entire life?
They could have - should have - contacted Child Services or whatever and got him out of Privet Drive. My only theory is that whenever they got close to doing so, in came Dumbledore with his Obliviates. Gotta keep Harry protected by his precious blood wards, after all...

What Kumainpink said. The way JKR so completely mishandled this leaves a discerning reader wide open to assuming teachers etc DID notice, DID report it ... and it got obliviated out of everyone's memory or some such crap by Dumbles, so he could keep his weapon right where it was, so that it would be properly mouldable when it came to Hogwarts.

Because seriously, someone should have noticed something, long before Hogwarts came a'calling. Harry was small and skinny as hell, had bruises all the time (from Dudley, if for no other reason), and was wearing shabby as hell clothes that were five sizes too big for him. When compared against Dudley, someone, somewhere, should have smelled something hinky going on.

[mountaingirl777]

Jun 13, 2012 14:49:42 GMT -5 sherza said:

Jun 13, 2012 14:11:22 GMT -5 OculisCaeruleis said:

I can't believe the neighbours didn't notice anything to be honest.

In the books, how did they not notice Vernon strangling Harry in OotP, when they all looked over to see what the Apparation noise was?

Way before that though, how did they not notice when Harry was a child?
I know for a fact that British teachers are taught to recognise signs of abuse and bulling (As a side note, why didn't they do anything about Dudley's treatment of Harry at school? They may have had no way of preventing it at home, but at school, surely...), so how on Earth did they miss it - especially if it had been going on Harry's entire life?
They could have - should have - contacted Child Services or whatever and got him out of Privet Drive. My only theory is that whenever they got close to doing so, in came Dumbledore with his Obliviates. Gotta keep Harry protected by his precious blood wards, after all...

What Kumainpink said. The way JKR so completely mishandled this leaves a discerning reader wide open to assuming teachers etc DID notice, DID report it ... and it got obliviated out of everyone's memory or some such crap by Dumbles, so he could keep his weapon right where it was, so that it would be properly mouldable when it came to Hogwarts.

Because seriously, someone should have noticed something, long before Hogwarts came a'calling. Harry was small and skinny as hell, had bruises all the time (from Dudley, if for no other reason), and was wearing shabby as hell clothes that were five sizes too big for him. When compared against Dudley, someone, somewhere, should have smelled something hinky going on.

where does it say he had bruises?

[Silvertongue]

You know how Petunia was dying clothes grey for Harry's uniform? How would that work? Because I'm pretty sure you have to buy the EXACT uniform. If Harry had gone to school in that he would have been sent home to change.

[sherza]

Jun 13, 2012 14:57:09 GMT -5 mountaingirl777 said:

where does it say he had bruises?

It doesn't, actually, but bruises are inevitable with the sort of manhandling Harry got. As I've said before, Vernon was entirely too fond of throwing Harry around physically, and grabbing him harshly ... even if that's all it was, Harry was a little kid, ages 1 1/2 to 10, and Vernon was freaking huge. There's no way Harry managed to escape bruises from him ... and even if he did, Dudley and his friends liked to chase and beat up Harry ... and he couldn't possibly escape every single time. So yeah ... bruises.