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Post by werewulfking on Jul 3, 2012 10:50:03 GMT -5
Very good points readingwizard.
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 3, 2012 10:52:42 GMT -5
Why on earth would Harry invite someone who could potentially rat the DA out to Malfoy or Umbridge? That's just pure stupidity in my opinion. Voldemort killed his parents so why would he want to be in the same house as the person who murdered his parents? Malfoy insulted his first friend Hagrid and acted like Dudley so Harry most likely wanted to be as far away as possible from him. Snape was just the last nail in the coffin. Snape treated him terribly from the start even though he did nothing to deserve it so why would he have he wanted to go into that house? Also we all make judgements of people wether we like it or not. It's just the way we are Exactly. We're all human. We all have our flaws. |
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Post by readingwizard4 on Jul 3, 2012 11:36:22 GMT -5
Though it would be worth it to see what Snape's reaction would be if Harry got into Slytherin. He'd probably have a heart attack.
Yes we are all human. We do have our flaws. I've judged people before from what I've seen in the hallways at my schools growing up (like how approachable they are or seem to be) and I've been judged myself from my appearance. The quote never judge a book by its cover is very true. Is it just me or is it very gratifying to learn that your first impression of a person is wrong and that person becomes a very good friend?
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Post by Dimcairien on Jul 3, 2012 11:42:36 GMT -5
Though it would be worth it to see what Snape's reaction would be if Harry got into Slytherin. He'd probably have a heart attack. Well, his reactions in RTBs when he find out that Harry almost got into Slytherin are often hilarious. Agreed. One of my first impressions of a friend was when we went over to their house to deliver a meal since they had just moved and he was sitting in a chair playing a DS. I think he got a good score or something since he pumped his first in the air. I automatically thought he was weird, but five years later, he is a good friend and has been for a long time. |
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 3, 2012 11:48:32 GMT -5
Though it would be worth it to see what Snape's reaction would be if Harry got into Slytherin. He'd probably have a heart attack. Yes we are all human. We do have our flaws. I've judged people before from what I've seen in the hallways at my schools growing up (like how approachable they are or seem to be) and I've been judged myself from my appearance. The quote never judge a book by its cover is very true. Is it just me or is it very gratifying to learn that your first impression of a person is wrong and that person becomes a very good friend? It isn't just you, it is highly gratifying to realise that your first impression of someone is wrong. And yes, Snape's reaction in RtBs to Harry nearly going to Slytherin is hilarious. |
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jul 3, 2012 12:30:28 GMT -5
If I was Harry I would have said 'Fuck that' no matter who it was I was talking to. No way would I have let someone take me back to that Hellhole when they KNOW this stuff was going on. I'd also never trust them again. I agree with you completely. If I'd been Harry, I'dve told Dumbledore to go fuck himself before school started fifth year *at the latest*. More probably the end of third. 'Lemme get this straight. You're the Head Mugwump etc ad nauseam. Bellatrix fucking Lestrange got a trial, but when it came to *my godfather*, who was a member of your little gang, you couldn't be bothered? Yet you spoke up for SNAPE, who, by the way, is a complete asshole. You bring the Philosopher's Stone, which is being hunted by bloody Voldemort INTO A SCHOOL. You had a Voldemort-possessed teacher in the school for a year and either didn't notice or didn't care. You had a girl with an extremely Dark object for a year and either didn't know or didn't care. You knew the Chamber really existed, knew it had been opened, knew someone had been killed, had their *ghost* in the castle, and yet still did *nothing* about it. You let a basilisk run around the damn school petrifying people for a year unchecked, without bothering to send innocent children home so they wouldn't get petrified or worse, KILLED. You didn't figure out that someone you name as friend had been replaced by an impostor for a year. Your protections around the bloody Goblet were pathetic ... you're bloody damn lucky none of the kids thought of having an of-age student toss their name into the damn thing. And now I'm being attacked by Dementors where I'm supposedly safe as houses, and you refuse to look at or speak to me, and I discover my name's being run into the ground and nothing is being done. Oh, and you ordered a complete communications blackout from my so-called friends. All of this on top of the fact the Dursleys starve me, work me like a Malfoy House elf, and Dudley uses me as a punching bag, not to mention the odd spot of minor abuse, like strangling me or forcing me to live in a cupboard for ten years. You know what? With friends like you, who needs enemies. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on. Hey Sirius! Wanna head for wherever the hell it was you went after third year to recuperate? You can come to Remus.' Also, don't bother arguing with werewulfking. To them, Dumbledore Is God Reborn, And Can Do No Wrong. Either that or JKR's Word Is Law, and since she says Harry wasn't abused and Dumbledore is a good man ... well ... *disgusted snort*. |
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 3, 2012 12:45:48 GMT -5
No don't bother arguing with me if you can't take my arguments into consideration. And your last sentence is completely untrue. I have stated a different opinion on all those topics.
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 3, 2012 12:49:45 GMT -5
And on the topic of giving Sirius a trial: He would still have received a life-long trial because of the murder of thirteen muggles and a wizard.
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 3, 2012 13:16:26 GMT -5
Here's another thing sherza didn't take into account.
Dumbledore wasn't the only one with the power to give Sirius a trial, and Fudge clearly wasn't going to listen to him with Snape saying that Sirius had confunded the trio.
I can't see Fudge being convinced to give Sirius a trial, what with Snape's grudge against the man, Lucius' money and his belief that Dumbledore was senile.
I just don't think Dumbledore could have convinced anyone on the Minister's side to give Sirius a trial, not without losing most, if not all, of his political allies, which would leave him defenceless when Voldemort returned and the Ministry badmouthed him. And if he was defenceless then, Umbridge would have had him thrown out of the school a lot sooner.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 3, 2012 13:19:35 GMT -5
And on the topic of giving Sirius a trial: He would still have received a life-long trial because of the murder of thirteen muggles and a wizard. Which he never did do, as he would have said under Veritaserum, as a Pensieve memory or a Wizard Oath would have proven. So, let's just ship him off without trial, so he can't get his name cleared. Really, I don't know what the wizards have a judicial system for, save for taking bribes of proven Death Eaters to buy their way out. Here's another thing sherza didn't take into account. Dumbledore wasn't the only one with the power to give Sirius a trial, and Fudge clearly wasn't going to listen to him with Snape saying that Sirius had confunded the trio. I can't see Fudge being convinced to give Sirius a trial, what with Snape's grudge against the man, Lucius' money and his belief that Dumbledore was senile. I just don't think Dumbledore could have convinced anyone on the Minister's side to give Sirius a trial, not without losing most, if not all, of his political allies, which would leave him defenceless when Voldemort returned and the Ministry badmouthed him. And if he was defenceless then, Umbridge would have had him thrown out of the school a lot sooner. So you think someone like Amelia Bones would just have kissed Fudge's arse, too? And Fudge thought Dumbledore senile only after the graveyard. Frankly, if it had been me, I'd have used my power of Chief Warlock to enforce the trial - it's not the MInister who is the chief judge! - and if they tried something, I'd have used the ICW to make it public that they still insist on keeping an innocent prisoner. But of course, that would be too much bother for an innocent, they will do that only for proven Death Eaters. |
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Post by Choices HP on Jul 3, 2012 13:23:17 GMT -5
Personally I think both viralic1 and werewulfking have a point about the Slytherin issue.
I think that all the Slytherins had laughed at Harry at some point, usually whenever Draco made fun of him. I think with that, Harry would have a hard time going over to them and talking to them because he had been laughed at all this life. He doesn't have to see them all as bullies, for I don't think he thought all the students at his muggle school were bullies, they're just not potential friends for him.
Now, I also think there were a few Slytherins in Harry's year alone that might have sympathize with Harry or at least not been Death Eaters in the making. I think these Slytherins would have laughed openly at him, and might have even have found some of it funny. I think the only way a friendship between Harry and these people would be if the Slytherin had gone to Harry and was the first to extend the olive branch. I think Harry would have heard them out and not immediately think they were trying to trick him because to me Harry's the kind of guy that will give you a chance.
As you mentioned, the Gryffindors didn't even speak to him after the 150 point issue, but as soon as they did talk to them again, Harry allowed it. Harry also accepted Ernie's apologies anytime he made one. If a Slytherin had come to him, he would have listen. The reason why none of these Slytherins came to him I would imagine is because either they didn't want to be caught sympathizing with Harry or the even more likely they didn't want to be part of the fight at all.
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 3, 2012 13:29:49 GMT -5
Well there are of course protections against Veritaserum and you can fake pensieve memories. Anybody wanting to imprison black would just have said that he had learned many things from Voldemort and anybody on the Wizengamot would have been happy to believe him. And the only prove that Sirius didn't kill the muggles and Pettigrew would have been to get Pettigrew and present him as evidence.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 3, 2012 13:36:22 GMT -5
Ok, if that was true, then Sherza is 100% right - Harry, Sirius and Remus should have just left the country and left these idiots to fend for themselves. Why bother helping people who vilify you and imprison you without reason, after all? After a few years of 100 Death Eaters terrorizing 10,000 people they might have finally pulled their heads out of the sand and noticed that they have a problem, and after a few more years, they might even have realised that they have to do something themselves, because it's not going to work any longer to expect a teenager to solve all their problems.
The more you say, the more disgusted I am with the wizarding world. They deserve everything coming to them.
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Post by readingwizard4 on Jul 3, 2012 13:40:10 GMT -5
While Harry wouldn't trust Slytherin House, Slytherin House were his strongest believers even though they didn't say anything. 2nd year I highly doubt they believed he was the Heir, Also 5th year they knew Voldemort was back. 1st and 4th year they took advantage of it.
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Post by readingwizard4 on Jul 3, 2012 13:42:59 GMT -5
The more you say, the more disgusted I am with the wizarding world. They deserve everything coming to them. And to think that we all wanted to be a part of that world when we were younger |
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 3, 2012 13:50:09 GMT -5
And to think that we all wanted to be a part of that world when we were younger Yeah. By now, I only want to reform it, and if it can't be reformed and acts the way Werewulfking thinks, it should maybe left to itself and burn. |
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 3, 2012 13:52:43 GMT -5
Who did they imprison without reason? Sirius was imprisoned with reason although of course he was wrongfully accused. And of course he never had a trial but after all against so many eyewitnesses everybody would lose the trial.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 3, 2012 14:00:02 GMT -5
*snort* So, innocently imprisoned is your idea of accpetable reason to be imprisoned? And on account of which witnesses? The eyewitnesses were muggles who didn't understand what happened and probably were obliviated straight away, and the Aurors didn't see anything. To me it is absolutely, totally inacceptable what they did.
Besides, obviously the Lestranges and Crouch jr. were caught on site as well, with reliable witnesses - and they got a trial.
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 3, 2012 14:04:00 GMT -5
Yes that is why I said that he should have had a trial. But I also want to point out that there it is more likely that Sirius would have been shipped of to Azkaban after the trial than the other way round. And of course Muggles are reliable eyewitnesses (unless you count a dementor attack). Just think of what you would have been able to tell somebody if you had witnessed it. You would have been 100% sure that Sirius had killed Peter.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 3, 2012 14:06:26 GMT -5
Which of course doesn't count for the true murderer confounding them, changing their memory, or anything like that. And the fact that Pettigrew was an animagus should have given them something to think about.
Again, if that is how it worked, they should have left that country to fend for itself after Sirius escaped. And make it public all over the world how corrupt GB truly is.
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Post by Choices HP on Jul 3, 2012 14:10:15 GMT -5
But the book said that Harry thought the trial for Crouch Jr (and the Lestranges were there because they had committed the crime with him) was for Crouch to show that he disowned his son.
And even Remus, who was Sirius's best friend, had thought that Sirius was guilty at the time. I'm not saying this was right ... it was not RIGHT ... and Sirius did get screwed over, but the truth was he didn't have one person on his side when he was arrested. There wasn't anyone there crying for a trail. Yes, I think he should still have had a trail, because that's what's fair, but FAIR doesn't seem to be the way the wizarding world thinks of things.
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 3, 2012 14:13:23 GMT -5
Of course nobody knew that pettigrew was an animagus and sirius was just standing there and laughing over all those dead bodies which didn't give him much credibility. After all why would an innocent person laugh about the death of fourteen people?
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 3, 2012 14:13:53 GMT -5
True. That's why I think it could be interesting to just leave them to their fate and see how they deal with it. They don't deserve anything better.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 3, 2012 14:22:11 GMT -5
Of course nobody knew that pettigrew was an animagus and sirius was just standing there and laughing over all those dead bodies which didn't give him much credibility. After all why would an innocent person laugh about the death of fourteen people? IF he had a trial, he could have told them about the animagus thing. As for the laughing - of course, why should the wizards know anything about shock reactions ... It's totally laughable that they have so many ways to determine the truth, but don't use any of them. |
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Silvertongue
Headmaster/Headmistress
I've got Slytherin Pride
Posts: 1,595
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Post by Silvertongue on Jul 3, 2012 14:46:25 GMT -5
Even if Sirius would have been given a life sentence after his trial, at least he would have gotten one and the judicial system would have been doing what it was supposed to do. I think he might even have been less bitter about that, as at least someone would have heard his side, even if they didn't believe it.
The fact that Bellatrix Lestrange, a known Death Eater, madwoman and criminal who was found on site after TORTURING someone actually got a trial and Sirius, the one who was the victim's brother in all but blood and most trusted friend, didn't get a trial is sickening. Dumbledore could easily have used his power to enforce the law, no matter who it was (*cough*Snape*cough*), but he didn't bother for someone who was a member of his forces in the first place. The fact that he trusted an Ex-Death Eater more than one of his own Order members says a lot about him.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 3, 2012 14:53:05 GMT -5
Exactly.
That hasn't really changed, has it? Look at how blindly Dumbledore trusts Snape and lets him get away with everything. Or how he was so eager to save Draco in HBP that he didn't care how many other students got seriously injured or killed in the process. It's disturbing when you think about it.
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 3, 2012 14:54:41 GMT -5
Again, if that is how it worked, they should have left that country to fend for itself after Sirius escaped. And make it public all over the world how corrupt GB truly is. How do we know that the rest of the world isn't just as corrupt or even worse? Remember Karkaroff? He was a convicted Death Eater who gave the Ministry a pile of names and was let off, and became Headmaster of Durmstrang. That sounds like whatever country Dursmstrang is in was pretty corrupt. Other countries may have been just as bad. |
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 3, 2012 15:00:17 GMT -5
Well, seeing as Durmstrang had a name for teaching the Dark Arts, I can see them welcoming Karkaroff with open arms. That doesn't necessarily mean that everyone else in their country, or in other countries, is equally dark and corrupt. The British magical world is so far behind the times and so corrupt that there have to be some countries out there who are better.
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 3, 2012 15:21:54 GMT -5
Yes, but there are many types of corruption, and while some countries may be better than GB in terms of pureblood beliefs, they may well be corrupt in other ways.
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 3, 2012 15:29:35 GMT -5
Well it certainly is true that had Dumbledore insisted on a trial he would have believed in Sirius and tried to free him. And it certainly is a great oversight that he didn't do that.
But on the other hand I am still not exactly sure on how the relation between the minister of magic, the department of magical law enforcement and the wizengamot is.
Because from Sirius explanation of Crouch it seems that he alone was responsible for the harsher methods in the first wizarding war. Like using the unforgivable curses and shipping of people to azkaban without trial.
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