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Post by basketsarah120 on Jul 3, 2012 15:35:43 GMT -5
And remember Fudge wasn't minister during this time. He only became minister a few years before Harry started school. It was his fault later Sirius didn't get a fair trial.
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 3, 2012 15:46:01 GMT -5
And I doubt Fudge would actually know what was supposed to happen with the DMLE. He was part of the Department of Magical Accidents and Catastrophies, not a Law Enforcement Officer.
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Silvertongue
Headmaster/Headmistress
I've got Slytherin Pride
Posts: 1,595
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Post by Silvertongue on Jul 3, 2012 15:48:02 GMT -5
I didn't mention Fudge because it doesn't matter who is Minister at the time, the Minister isn't SUPPOSED to be the person in charge of law like that, at least, not form what I know of the legal system.
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 3, 2012 15:52:49 GMT -5
I didn't mention Fudge because it doesn't matter who is Minister at the time, the Minister isn't SUPPOSED to be the person in charge of law like that, at least, not form what I know of the legal system. Yes, but JK never mentioned whether that was true for Fudge. And anyway, he was just one person who wouldn't let Sirius get a fair trial. I got the feeling that when Sirius was thrown in Azkaban, Barty Crouch Sr just took one look at Sirius' surname and decided that he was just another Death Eater Black. Hell, the only reason Barty Crouch Jr and the Lestranges got a trial was so that Crouch Sr could prove just how much he hated his son. I don't think the Lestranges would have been given a trial if Crouch Jr hadn't been involved. |
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 3, 2012 15:57:43 GMT -5
And unfortunately the legal system in the wizarding world isn't explained very good. We know that the Wizengamot is something like a court but other than that not much. It also isn't explained why firstly the hearing was just a normal "interview" and it doesn't explain how severe Harry's "crime" was in comparison to our world.
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 3, 2012 16:34:12 GMT -5
It's one of the many plot holes JK left in the books.
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Post by lucyolsen on Jul 3, 2012 18:03:38 GMT -5
It is no longer on JKR's official site, but there used be be an old FAQ which stated that veritaserum can be overcome by a strong mind, so there is no guarantee that its use in trial would have acquitted Sirius.
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 3, 2012 18:15:17 GMT -5
Oh I wouldn't call the legal system a plot hole because she would have had to bore us with chapters of explanations to explain a functioning and logical legal system.
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 3, 2012 18:27:05 GMT -5
Functioning and logical. JK didn't seem to have put any logic into HP. Here's an article that someone posted on another thread. ontd-political.livejournal.com/7321835.htmlIt's interesting, but I think whoever wrote it has Communist leanings. |
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 3, 2012 19:04:17 GMT -5
Well I am just saying that the things we expect to be explained by JK in hindsight would have easily filled two more books of just explanations which nobody can really expect her to think through.
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Post by emeraldink4blood on Jul 3, 2012 19:10:32 GMT -5
Am I the only one who thinks that no one bothered themselves about whether Sirius got a job or not was because he betrayed the Boy Who Lived? (Of course he wouldn't be the BWL if Sirius hadn't but that carries a level of logic wizards do not posses.)
Or even that it was because it so soon after Voldy's downfall and was so obvious a crime? I mean Peter shouted it for all those muggles to hear and then BOOM! Complete disregard for the Statue Of Secrecy! And then that bout of mad laughter must've been a lovely touch....
With all that evidence how could Black be anything but?
I mean we know how, but if we hadn't had Wormy confession, would YOU have believed it?
And why would Dumbles fight for Sirius to get a trial if he himself thought that Sirius was guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt?
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 3, 2012 19:28:14 GMT -5
Am I the only one who thinks that no one bothered themselves about whether Sirius got a job or not was because he betrayed the Boy Who Lived? (Of course he wouldn't be the BWL if Sirius hadn't but that carries a level of logic wizards do not posses.) Or even that it was because it so soon after Voldy's downfall and was so obvious a crime? I mean Peter shouted it for all those muggles to hear and then BOOM! Complete disregard for the Statue Of Secrecy! And then that bout of mad laughter must've been a lovely touch.... With all that evidence how could Black be anything but? I mean we know how, but if we hadn't had Wormy confession, would YOU have believed it? And why would Dumbles fight for Sirius to get a trial if he himself thought that Sirius was guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt? Simple answer. He wouldn't. |
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 3, 2012 19:29:54 GMT -5
Well other than the fact that it would be the right thing to do.
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Post by emeraldink4blood on Jul 3, 2012 19:42:10 GMT -5
Posted by werewulfking on Today at 7:29pm
Not everyone is that god damned noble
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 3, 2012 20:08:06 GMT -5
But Dumbledore is painted to be this in the earlier books.
That, and Dumbledore believed Harry and friends far too easily if you ask me.
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Post by lucyolsen on Jul 3, 2012 20:10:31 GMT -5
Dumbledore had already spoken to Sirius himself by that point, and isn't too bad at legilemancy.
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Post by emeraldink4blood on Jul 3, 2012 20:14:35 GMT -5
Dumbles always seemed for some unknown reason to have an idea of what was wrong and the trio filled the blanks often. *Shrugs* This is all a bit complex thinking for something that started as a children's novel but it's fun  |
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 3, 2012 20:17:14 GMT -5
Even so, I highly doubt that Dumbledore didn't have some kind of inkling. I will say you're right on the legilemancy point, but it doesn't redeem him in my eyes. Even with all the evidence painted against Sirius, Dumbledore is a firm believer in second chances. And in Sirius' case, he didn't even have a first one. If he can justify keeping Snape out of Azkaban, he should have given Sirius a chance.
Sirius showed no evidence of being a traitor until that night, and he couldn't have been that good at acting - Sirius wears his heart on his sleeve, even more so than Harry. Was Sirius perfect? No. Should he have gone after Peter? Big NO!
But even so, Dumbledore should have put the pieces together. The fact that he didn't, and yet comes up with such over-the-top plans like the "Horcrux/Harry/Voldemort" one, kind of makes it hard to trust him. It's very easy for people to think that he could have known and done nothing.
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 3, 2012 20:17:44 GMT -5
Dumbles always seemed for some unknown reason to have an idea of what was wrong and the trio filled the blanks often. *Shrugs* This is all a bit complex thinking for something that started as a children's novel but it's fun Yes, it most certainly is! |
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 4, 2012 0:44:01 GMT -5
Even so, I highly doubt that Dumbledore didn't have some kind of inkling. I will say you're right on the legilemancy point, but it doesn't redeem him in my eyes. Even with all the evidence painted against Sirius, Dumbledore is a firm believer in second chances. And in Sirius' case, he didn't even have a first one. If he can justify keeping Snape out of Azkaban, he should have given Sirius a chance. Sirius showed no evidence of being a traitor until that night, and he couldn't have been that good at acting - Sirius wears his heart on his sleeve, even more so than Harry. Was Sirius perfect? No. Should he have gone after Peter? Big NO! But even so, Dumbledore should have put the pieces together. The fact that he didn't, and yet comes up with such over-the-top plans like the "Horcrux/Harry/Voldemort" one, kind of makes it hard to trust him. It's very easy for people to think that he could have known and done nothing. So true, Kuma, so true! Either he believes in second chances, then he has to give them to everyone. Or he doesn't, then he should treat the Death Eaters not better than his own Order every single time. Instead he gives the bad guys chance after chance and allows them to run roughshot over everyone because he "trusts" them, but he comes down harshly on everyone on his own side. No, I can't trust someone like that. |
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Post by mkatl1 on Jul 4, 2012 0:45:44 GMT -5
I still say dumbledore is a maliputive old coot !! And I stand by it! Lol
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Post by Kaiserin on Jul 4, 2012 1:03:34 GMT -5
So Wolf let me see if I understand what you are saying. you do think harry is slightly abused but not too badly and that if he lived in this world you wouldn't want him to stay at the dursleys. However, because 'Lord thingy' is after him it is the best place for him to stay at, because he will live. Also that Dumbledore (born in wizarding world 1800's) manipulates everyone to be what he see's as best, although many disagree with his views.
So in your opinion in a hypothetical situation (a what if),what would Dumbledor do if Vernon did decide to beat the freakishness out of Harry and sent him to the hospital on one or more occasion? Also I would like you to point me at where it shows Dumbledore to have the best world view. What would he see as the greater good? Please answer me. Have a nice day.
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jul 4, 2012 1:50:04 GMT -5
So Wolf let me see if I understand what you are saying. you do think harry is slightly abused but not too badly and that if he lived in this world you wouldn't want him to stay at the dursleys. However, because 'Lord thingy' is after him it is the best place for him to stay at, because he will live. Also that Dumbledore (born in wizarding world 1800's) manipulates everyone to be what he see's as best, although many disagree with his views. So in your opinion in a hypothetical situation (a what if),what would Dumbledor do if Vernon did decide to beat the freakishness out of Harry and sent him to the hospital on one or more occasion? Also I would like you to point me at where it shows Dumbledore to have the best world view. What would he see as the greater good? Please answer me. Have a nice day. I think I like you. Really, the preponderance of evidence *against* Dumbledore is damning. Looking at the *known* facts, without any slanting whatever, makes you sit there and go 'buhwuh? This is a nice guy? right, pull the other one ... it has bells on it. 1) Hagrid knowing where Godric's Hollow was that night. This means one of two things: Hagrid knew the secret, which means Dumbledore knew it and passed the secret on to him ala Moody with Harry in Book 5 ... which means he had to have gotten the secret AFTER the switch, which means he knew who the Secret Keeper was ... or neither Dumbledore nor Hagrid knew the secret, which raises ALL KINDS of questions about how they knew there was trouble, and where it was happening at. 2) Sending Hagrid at all. Harry and his fate are NOT Dumbledore's dominion, Prophecy be damned. Sirius is Harry's godfather and, presumably, primary caretaker in the event of the Potters' deaths. 3) Sirius not getting a trial. Dumbledore's positions give him the power to ensure trials for all. Whether it would have been fair or exonerated Sirius is a debate for elsewhere. 4) Placing a baby on a doorstep in the middle of the night on November the first. This is literally criminal. People go to jail for that sort of thing IRL. 5) Bringing that bloody Stone into a SCHOOL. And telling the kids 'don't go here or you'll die'. This is just BEGGING for some sufficiently curious kid to go poke their nose in and try to find out what the deal is. 6) Putting said Stone behind 'traps' that a triad of First Years can break through without any difficulty at all, save the chess match. 7) Dumbledore knew the Chamber was real. He had someone on hand who knew where the entrance was. WHY did he not seal that bathroom off entirely? 8) Keeping the school running when people are being attacked. Waiting for *months* to get the Mandrake draught as grown and brewed by Hogwarts staff, rather than applying elsewhere for some immediately. 9) As of end of second year, he for sure knew about Voldie and his horcruxes. He also had all the information required to figure out how many, what, and where. Nothing was done. 10) Despite having the power to slap Fudge upside the head after fourth year, Dumbledore just lets him bury his head, and worse, run a smear campaign. 11) UMBRIDGE. 12) The communications and information blackout he enforced on Harry. By what right did he do that? 13) Forcing Snape and Harry to work together on Occlumency, despite knowing they hate each other's guts. 14) Flat-out admitted to knowing Harry was abused. 15) Malfoy. Sixth year. |
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 4, 2012 2:37:50 GMT -5
Don't forget using Harry's fame to lure Slughorn, or the whole Harry/Voldemort/horcrux gambit.
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 4, 2012 2:37:54 GMT -5
Well Kaiserin that is a really difficult question. I firmly believe that he would take Harry away from the Dursleys of course.
Because being hospitalized is just a danger sign that no one can ignore. But as for where he would take him I honestly can't say.
As I already explained Harry would have to be living with Dumbledore so that he was at all times ready to defend him. But on the other hand I can't imagine Dumbledore being good parent material. That would be a reason to get Lupin to come and help raise Harry.
And of course Hogwarts is no place to grow up in. Not to mention that Harry would probably be greatly bothered by all the students it just isn't safe for a little kid with all the magic around.
So maybe he would have had Harry and Remus move to Hogsmead but even there Harry is still under everybody's eye and would be bothered by his popularity.
But most likely it is possible to counter that with a fidelius charm. And as an added protection it may be possible to get one or two Aurors to guard in Hogsmead without knowing of course where Harry lives.
That may have been the way to go if Harry had no chance to stay at the Dursleys.
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 4, 2012 2:39:58 GMT -5
It would have been a much better alternative, that's for sure!
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jul 4, 2012 2:47:51 GMT -5
Oh, trust me, I hadn't forgotten, Kuma ... I was just trying to avoid the more heavily debatable topics ... like the whole Quirrell issue, or 'Moody', or the end-gambit, or Sluggy, and a number of other things. Each of which could be a 'he didn't know' or have a truly reasonable explanation of some sort. The ones I listed? Not so much. *snort*
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 4, 2012 2:49:41 GMT -5
Too true, Shezra. Too true. There are so many blunders...it's a wonder he has any fans.
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 4, 2012 2:53:07 GMT -5
well I could explain away most of the problems sherza listed and some where even explained in the books.
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Post by kumainpink on Jul 4, 2012 2:54:14 GMT -5
Then please do so? I'm curious about your insight on him.  I don't think I'll agree, but it would be neat to read. |
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