Living In A Cupboard

[emeraldink4blood]

Again, HP started as a children's book. By the time the intended fanbase was old enough to notice Dumbles blunders we had been conditioned to trust him just as much as Harry. So much so we let Dumbles half ass excuse in King Cross go largely unchallenged :/

[kumainpink]

He should be challenged though. And challenged a lot. >=[

[viralic1]

I think a large problem with the story is as Emerald said, it started as a children's book, and then she tried to overstep who she was writing too and make it a young adults book. She's not good at writing young adult's books, and it was painfully obvious, especially with how she tried to hint at torture, but never say it out right.

She should have either written it as a young adults book for the beginning, or kept it a children's book throughout the series.

[mkatl1]

Oh viralic1 your back looking forward to another debate

[viralic1]

I always love debating, as long as it doesn't get out of hand. One of my favorite teachers has always maintained that a debate conducted in a healthy environment and kept under controlled is the best way to learn.

[mkatl1]

Lol good for u ! I agree .. I find it amusing lol

[kumainpink]

Me too! Debates are both fun and stimulating! That's probably the Ravenclaw in me, though!

[mkatl1]

Woohoo go ravenclaw!!

[viralic1]

My friends always say I'm Ravenclaw. I don't get it lol, I don't think I'm smart enough.

[Dimcairien]

Debate is the reason I love my discussion based class. Where else can you talk about whether or not Richard III was insane or should there be intellectual requirements for voting?

Yes, both of those are topics that have come up in my classes over the past three years. There are several others that have come up as well and some discussions, especially theological ones, can get quite heated at moments.

Oh, and I almost always get either Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff. I think I'd rather be in Hufflepuff though because I think loyalty and friends are of more value than brains, but they're very good to have as well.

[kumainpink]

Maybe you're smart like Luna? You know, in a unique, quirky sort of way.

[viralic1]

I just read a lot lol. I'm always either reading, or playing Minecraft. I haven't turned on my TV to a channel besides for video games in quite a long time.

[mkatl1]

I prefer reading all the way I hardly watch tv unless it's before bed or to watch it with my daughter

[kumainpink]

I almost never watch tv... though I do watch anime online. X3

[werewulfking]

1) The fidelius charm broke down. For what reason is unkown but I expect a great incident like a rebounding killing curse would do in most wards.

2) The fact that somebody is your godfather doesn't make him automatically the person you go to (at least here in my country it doesn't). And of course Sirius was a criminal in the eyes of Dumbledore and all of Lily and James friends.

3) Big problem I agree with you there.

4) Magic can help over so many things. I don't think Harry was in any danger of illness, cold getting taken away or whatnot. But well that depends on your opinion of how much Dumbledore cared about Harry.

5) Well, but what is the alternative? Gringotts isn't safe. And not telling anybody also isn't an option. And in the end I still believe that Harry and friends only were able to go near Fluffy because Quirell already had done a bit of snooping around. But that of course is a pretty weak explanation as I just assume things.

6) I already explained in a post much earlier what I thought about those protections but I will search for it again.

7) Well I don't know but most likely you mean myrtle. And well I think that Harry is the only person she had a conversation with after her death. But it may have been an oversight not to ask her how she died.
And of course the fact remains that the chambers entrance was in a location that wasn't there when the school was built so it may have been possible that the entrance could move and it wouldn't have mattered anyway.

8) Well here you just assume that Mandrakes can be shipped around like potatoes and also that there are any growing somewhere else. Well I don't think closing the school would have been an option as the school would have to be closed of for good but maybe it would be easier to just build a new school than to continue teaching in Hogwarts.

9) Not where, not how many and not what. He figured most of it out after the end of the second year. I don't think he didn't do everything he could and you do but hey that are just things we both assume.

10) How had Dumbledore the power to slap Fudge over his head? Dumbledore stated the truth and that was the right thing to do. But then in a matter of weeks Fudge managed to take away all his powers and even "invaded" hogwarts.
Now I think that means Fudge just has the greater political power and of course the opinion of the wizarding population behind him while you think dumbledore just let it all happen.

11) See above (highe political power) and after 20 sth. years of teachers only lasting a year it would be pretty hard to find one. And Snape still had a reason to stay at Hogwarts, therefore he couldn't have taken the job.

12) Because owls can be intercepted. And of course because Harry had yet to learn occlumency.

13) Another Mistake but Snape was the best and harry was in danger of attacking dumbledore therefore ruling him out.

14) Well we have already discussed that and we both think differently on how bad the abuse was and on how easy it was to get another protection and on how safe this protection then would be.

15) Trying to safe a boy. Although in my opinion it was more Snape who failed there as he couldn't persuade Malfoy.
And of course stopping Malfoy for good would have meant Dumbledore's death as Snape would have had to kill him.

[viralic1]

I think to be fair, Dumbledore did just let it happen. From what I understand, the ICW is kind of like our version of the UN, with Dumbledore being the head. He has much more political power than the Head of a single country. Plus, he could have brought suit against Fudge for Slander, or he could have simply bought off the Prophet. There were numerous things he could have done, but in his desire to uphold his morally superior position, he chose not too.

[kumainpink]

Well, I knew this would be interesting, and I was right. While I'm still not inclined to agree with you, I did like reading your thoughts.

[werewulfking]

Again those are just interpretations. And in no way is the UN more powerful than the head of a single state. As all the states have to support the decisions in the UN it is not decided by the UN.

[viralic1]

But he most certainly had the power to start a fair investigation, removed from the ministry.

Another thing that bugs me is the whole idea of the Order Of The Phoenix. What makes Dumbledore think he is fit to lead a vigilante organization that is fighting a war. Has he commanded troops on the battlefield before? Does he even have his own troops safety in mind?

I don't think he did, at least not on the second one. He sent them out there, and said "Yeah, they'll be trying to murder you, but don't kill them."

He was more willing to push for trials for the enemy opposition, than for his own soldiers.

I can't remember where I read it, but someone stated it perfectly.

"They were fighting a war of attrition, and Dumbledore's ideals almost guaranteed had he kept to them, the war would have been lost."

[kumainpink]

That's a good quote right there. I like that a lot.

[Kitty279]

Jul 4, 2012 3:43:42 GMT -5 viralic1 said:

But he most certainly had the power to start a fair investigation, removed from the ministry.

Yeah, that always bugged me that he didn't even try. He seems to have done some token attempt to talk to Fudge and that was it. Fudge's behaviour is really as if the British PM is deciding who to throw into prison, regardless of the legal system, and the Parliament allowing him to do whatever he pleases.

Another thing that bugs me is the whole idea of the Order Of The Phoenix. What makes Dumbledore think he is fit to lead a vigilante organization that is fighting a war. Has he commanded troops on the battlefield before? Does he even have his own troops safety in mind?

Definitely not. What use was risking their lives, jobs and freedom for guarding that stupid prophecy? Either remove it, or leave it be. It doesn't tell Voldemort anything new. I mean, it's Harry or Voldemort anyway, as he's obsessed with killing him, so what's the difference? He rather should've used the Order to track down Horcruxes. Would have saved countless lives. But that would have made it necessary that not only Albus-I-am-the-only-one-allowed-to-know-everything-Dumbledore was knowing about them.

He was more willing to push for trials for the enemy opposition, than for his own soldiers.

How can he keep a proven Death Eater out of Azkaban just on his word, but can't enforce a trial - that was his goddamn right - for Sirius?

I can't remember where I read it, but someone stated it perfectly.

"They were fighting a war of attrition, and Dumbledore's ideals almost guaranteed had he kept to them, the war would have been lost."

Well said, that's so true!

[werewulfking]

A fair investigation from whom? And you really can't compare a wizarding war with our wars. It seems more like they all employ guerrilla tactics. And the wizarding kind of killing (with avada kedavra) is much different from our way of killing. Because I don't think anybody in the order really wanted their opponent dead with every part of their soul. They just wanted them incapable of hurting anyone anymore. And for the Avada Kedavra that is a big difference.
And as for actually saying: Yeah, they'll be trying to murder you, but don't kill them. I think it is much more likely that everybody decided that for himself what to use against the deatheaters.

[Kitty279]

Why not bring someone impartial from the ICW in?

Please, where is it said that AK is the only way to kill someone? If you want to kill, a cutting curse to the throat or chest would do the trick. Besides, it doesn't even look like they tried to take them down for long enough to end the fight most of the time, fighting with school-level spells against Death Eaters. It's not as if they fought innocents, most Death Eaters were very likely murderers, so why take so much care not to hurt them?

[kumainpink]

I honestly would like to know where Dumbledore's priorities really are. I do not buy the book explanation at all.

[Dimcairien]

Dumbledore is a believer in second chances (or third, or fourth, etc) and if someone is killed, they can't have a second chance. Like I said earlier, I'd avoid using AK or even another curse to kill, unless it was inevitable, simply for moral reasons.

[werewulfking]

Well Kitty I think if we compare the ICW with the UN then you would know that only the government has the right to ask for help from the UN. Therefore an investigation can only be launched if Fudge asks for it.

[Choices HP]

No AK is not the only way to kill someone and even if it was, I'm pretty sure that the people in the Order could have used it if they wanted to. Though I think it's probably not an easy spell for them to use for the first time.

Where does it say that they use school-level spells? Are you taking about Harry and his friends. Because if so ... they are school-level. If you're talking about the Order ... I don't know where it said that.

[viralic1]

I believe it was mainly the battle of the Ministry in the OoTp. Despite the fact that the Order seemed to have better numbers after Sirius died, no one was killed on the DE side.

Despite what Dumbledore tried to pass off, that battle was a loss. The light side lost a good fighter, the dark side lost no one, as Azkaban was entirely ineffective.

[Choices HP]

In the battle at the Minster the Order members there were Sirius, Remus, Tonks, Kingsley, Madeye and then later Dumbledore. That's Five people at first where as the Death Eaters had 10 or 11. I know they started with 12 and then lost one as the babyface, I believe it was mention that all the remaining Death Eaters followed Harry into the Room with the Veil. I'm going to go reread that section now to verify my facts though.

[Kitty279]

Jul 4, 2012 4:08:14 GMT -5 Dimcairien said:

Dumbledore is a believer in second chances (or third, or fourth, etc) and if someone is killed, they can't have a second chance. Like I said earlier, I'd avoid using AK or even another curse to kill, unless it was inevitable, simply for moral reasons.

But that's exactly the problem. He believes in umpteen chances for the Death Eaters. Where are the even *first* chances for the ones killed by these that were left off the hook? How many bought their way out like Lucius and then went on to continue with their dirty work? Is it worth giving these murderers so many chances when good people die because of them?

As for my remark about school-level spells - sure, it is not said, but I can't remember any part of the book where the light side seriously hurt any Death Eater beyond rendering them unconscious, so I get the feeling they went way too soft during battles.