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Post by viralic1 on Jul 4, 2012 4:21:18 GMT -5
Alright, please get back to me on that one. Right now I'm way too tired to be reading anything for specific details.
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Post by Choices HP on Jul 4, 2012 4:24:46 GMT -5
Well that's the problem though isn't it. The fact that the Death Eaters are willing to kill and the other side isn't. And I don't believe it's only Dumbledore that thinks this way. Even Mad Eye Moody brought people in when he could, instead of killing them.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 4, 2012 4:26:55 GMT -5
Yes, when he could. But when he could not?
Don't get me wrong, I am not condoning killing at will, but I often wonder if they weren't a bit too soft with these murderers. And it doesn't help when people like Snape or Malfoy get off, but people like Sirius not.
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Post by viralic1 on Jul 4, 2012 4:27:33 GMT -5
Yeah, but it specified that he brought them in instead of killing them when he could. What I got from that was while he wasn't violent and he tried to subdue first rather then going straight for the kill, he did kill if it was necessary.
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sherza
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Post by sherza on Jul 4, 2012 4:34:19 GMT -5
1) The fidelius charm broke down. For what reason is unkown but I expect a great incident like a rebounding killing curse would do in most wards. Ok, I'll give you that one, as it's a halfway reasonable explanation. Not automatically, no, but Lily knew *exactly* what sort of person her sister was ... can you see her being willing to risk Harry staying there? I'm *quite* sure someone other than the Dursleys was to be Harry's primary caretaker in the event of the Potters' deaths, and Sirius is the most likely candidate of the people we know about. Something that dangerous had NO BUSINESS being around largely defenseless children, when it was going to attract VOLDEMORT, of all people. Even if Dumbledore didn't suspect Voldie, he knew *someone* was after it. Stick it somewhere under a Fidelius that Dumbledore himself holds the secret to! It's not whether or not it would have actually stopped the Chamber from being opened that's the point ... the point is, he knew of the location, and made *zero* attempt to even TRY to do anything about it. I find the idea that Mandrakes are not grown anywhere else in the world to be ridiculous. I will grant that shipping the plants themselves might be a problem ... but that's not necessary. They only need the juice from the plants, or the restorative potion itself. Surely St. Mungo's at the very least has a supply of mandrake restorative potion? It would seem to be a very good thing for a hospital to have. I'll admit that taking the kids out of the school wouldn't really do any good ... for one, the diary would have gone with them ... but that's not the point ... the point is it should have been done. Children's lives were at stake here, and to keep them there was irresponsible as hell, bordering on outright criminal. If I'd been a parent of one of the kids that got petrified, I'dve sued Dumbledore for every knut he had when I found out he didn't evacuate everyone the moment he realized there was a massive problem. He didn't know at that point, no, but he had all the pieces of information he needed to figure it out at that point. He already knew pretty much all there was to know about Voldie after all. All he had to do was sit down and think it out to figure everything out ... after all, he managed it summer before sixth year with the one, didn't he? It can't have taken him *four years* to put it all together! Dumbledore is the leader of the Judicial branch of the wizarding world, the Headmaster of their preeminent school ... and more importantly, leader of the Magical United Nations. He had a *shite-ton* of power and influence he could have wielded over Fudge, if he'd wanted to. Problem was ... he didn't want to. And see my answer above. ;D So ... they couldn't have used Muggle mail? Hermione damn well knew how to use it, and could have forwarded everyone's letters. And not telling Harry what the frell was going on resulted in him *courting* the visions, and lost Sirius his life. A simple 'I think the visions are two-way, and need you to learn Occlumency before I tell you much of anything else' would have solved ALL those problems. ... Oy. Just ... oy. So ... it was better to let Malfoy run around, damn near killing innocent bystanders, than to do something? They could so easily have arranged it such that Draco got locked in a dungeon cell somewhere, Snape 'finds out about it' and 'seeking to curry favor' does Draco's job for him, or something of that stripe (Hey, I'm just coming up with a solution off the top of my head here). Plus, we don't know the sequence of those events ... did Snape take the Vow before or after he found out Dumbledore was dying anyway? If he took the Vow before, then there'd have to be maneuvering. If the Vow came up afterward, he could have Confunded Bella and Narci and left them with the impression he intended to help, or something. |
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Post by viralic1 on Jul 4, 2012 4:37:50 GMT -5
Dumbledore had to without a doubt know where the chamber was at the very least located. You're telling me that a 60 foot snake was invisible to the dozens of portraits? And don't give me shit about pipes, because the fact that the kids were petrified was enough to show that the basilisk was out and about.
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Post by Choices HP on Jul 4, 2012 4:40:26 GMT -5
Yes I agree with you, Mad Eye did kill some of them. He was a season fighter and understood the dangerous of letting these people go (I think he was knocked out in the fight at the Ministry pretty early because he fought Bellatrix before Tonks did). Not all of the Order members were season fighters though and I think they would have found it harder to kill.
My belief as to why Dumbledore was willing to let Draco off was because he hadn't actually done anything yet. Dumbledore was talking to Snape about this before School even started so that was true then. This wasn't the best of reason because Draco had come close to doing catastrophic things (Killing Two Students and Using the Imprius curse on Rosmerta) and was illegal for just the attempt.
Snape had come to him at the end of the first war and turn spy. It would be easy for Dumbledore to defend him. Not saying it was right that he did ... but it would be easy because he needed Snape.
Sirius was the traitor in the Order. Not really of course, but that's what everyone (not just Dumbledore) thought after what happened. He betrayed everyone in the Order, got James and Lily killed actually killed Peter. Not to mention Dumbledore had believed there was a traitor in the Order that was close to the Potters before, which means more lives would have been lost.
Again, I'm not saying that it was right that Dumbledore didn't stand up for Sirius and demand a trail but after a betray that he thought was there it would have been difficult. Honestly though, it was out of character that Dumbledore didn't try to give Sirius a trail, unless there were other Death Eaters that had been sent to Azkaban without a trail. Still, Dumbledore wasn't the only one that failed Sirius in this concerns.
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jul 4, 2012 4:44:15 GMT -5
I think the book says there were no portraits around Myrtle's bathroom, in the books.
Other than that, I agree with you.
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Post by viralic1 on Jul 4, 2012 4:45:05 GMT -5
Okay, so he didn't know where it was. But there were certainly portraits near the library.
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Post by Choices HP on Jul 4, 2012 4:49:29 GMT -5
Look the way he would have learned about the Chamber of Secrets would have been him asking Myrtle about it. He could have done that after talking to Hagrid and hearing his story about the spider. We know that Dumbledore kept Hagrid at the school so he would have listen to the story and investigated and he probably would have fact to pick up what Harry had, and that Myrtle was the key. He might not even have had to follow the facts around like Harry, because he knew that Myrtle was killed as a victim of the Chamber (or would it be Heir).
As for
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Silvertongue
Headmaster/Headmistress
I've got Slytherin Pride
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Post by Silvertongue on Jul 4, 2012 6:27:27 GMT -5
The biggest problem I have with the whole no trial thing and only finding out his innocence after talking to himin the tower is that he never even showed the slightest hint that he felt guilty for believeing Sirius could ever have betrayed the Potters. He seemed perfectly jovial that night when talking to Harry and Hermione.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 4, 2012 7:04:09 GMT -5
Why does that give me more food for thought? When there was no guilt, did he know from the beginning and wanted control of the BWL without fiercely loyal guardians interfering, like so many fics imply? Besides, he sent these two on a highly illegal adventure to save Sirius, after all. Could that mean that he was happy to find his yearly test for Harry that way, as so far nothing had happened and he had not found a way to throw something dangerous at Harry so far?
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Silvertongue
Headmaster/Headmistress
I've got Slytherin Pride
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Post by Silvertongue on Jul 4, 2012 7:15:23 GMT -5
Lol, I was thinking THAT cynically but that's possible. After all, Harry can't go through the year without ending it with a bang. That just wouldn't be conducive to Harry putting his life on the line for everyone whenever he's asked.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 4, 2012 7:31:35 GMT -5
The more we discuss the books, the more cynical are my ideas getting ... there are so many things like that where you have to wonder why someone did this or that and if the outward explanation is true or not just there to distract from a less kosher one. And Dumbledore has just done too much controversial stuff to not eye every one of his decisions and deeds with some distrust.
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Post by werewulfking on Jul 4, 2012 7:39:26 GMT -5
Well in the end we all have to remember that Dumbledore never did anything. If we want the story in another way we can just write a fanfic about it and then he is either the manipulative mastermind behind all of Harry's sufferings or the kind grandfatherly headmaster with a quirk for lemon drops.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jul 4, 2012 7:41:21 GMT -5
He didn't do anything, and that's exactly my problem with him. He sat on his bony arse and left it to a child to save the school year after year and then to end a war.
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Post by G. Novella on Jul 4, 2012 10:39:44 GMT -5
Honestly, every adult in the entire series, including the seemingly innocent ones like Arthur, Sirius, Narcissa, etc failed in some kind of way. Its one of the reasons why I chose to do an Rtb involving the DA changing the future. I love all the characters, butit was really the future generation, or Harry's generation that was doing anything.
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Post by viralic1 on Jul 4, 2012 10:41:02 GMT -5
It's one of the reasons why I can't do an RtB lol. I tried to do it, got one chapter in, and ended up changing the story so much it was pointless.
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Post by emeraldink4blood on Jul 4, 2012 17:05:35 GMT -5
So ... they couldn't have used Muggle mail? Hermione damn well knew how to use it, and could have forwarded everyone's letters. And not telling Harry what the frell was going on resulted in him *courting* the visions, and lost Sirius his life. A simple 'I think the visions are two-way, and need you to learn Occlumency before I tell you much of anything else' would have solved ALL those problems. Muggle mail can be intercepted to. Remember Tuney's letter? |
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sherza
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Post by sherza on Jul 4, 2012 17:10:29 GMT -5
Tuney's letter?
If you mean the letter she sent to Dumbledore as a child, I have always presumed she sent it via owl, since that's apparently the only way to reach Hogwarts.
Voldemort-supporter purebloods would NOT have people in place to intercept Muggle letters. Hell's bells, even the Weasleys get mailing a letter wrong ... how much more so would a pureblood who never wanted anything to do with the Muggle world, so never bothered to learn anything about it? They'd not have the first idea of where to go, or what to do.
And frankly, if they were watching Hermione closely enough to intercept the letters before they got into the mail system ... she'd be dead already. She is, after all, a 'mudblood'. Who is not only smarter than half the purebloods, but is Harry Potter's best friend. There is no way on god's green earth that if the DE's had ANY idea where she lived that she'd have escaped harm.
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Post by emeraldink4blood on Jul 4, 2012 17:16:35 GMT -5
o.o Muggle mail system.
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jul 4, 2012 18:07:53 GMT -5
ok ... my point still stands. Unless they knew Hermione's address, they'd not know where the heck to place someone to intercept her Muggle-to-Muggle mail. They might have someone in place to divert anything mailed to a Wizarding address from a Muggle, but Privet Drive isn't a Wizarding address, so ... yeah.
It would mean that the DE's would have to have one or more of the following.
1) Someone stationed at the post box nearest Hermione's home, or near her home, to go through her box (I don't know how English mailing works ... Here in the US, if you put a letter in your mailbox and put the flag up, the postman will take it for later shipping to the recipient, and there's big blue mailboxes at various places).
2) Someone in the central mail-gathering spot responsible for Hermione's street.
3) Someone in the central mail-gathering spot for Harry's street.
Which is where the problems come in.
If the DE's knew Hermione's address, they wouldn't bother watching her mail. They'd go for her. So there can't be anyone at her house or near it, or them knowing her address.
While they may know Harry's address ... no DE pureblood would have the *faintest* clue where to go to intercept the mail, other than attacking the carrier person, and the Order was there to prevent that.
Actually ... why the HELL didn't the Order talk to Harry when they were on-site guarding? Or hand Harry his mail when the guard changed?
GAH.
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Post by G. Novella on Jul 4, 2012 18:40:04 GMT -5
But it wasn't only DEs they were against, it was the ministry too, and they didn't need ministry interference, who would presumably station guys in the post office.
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 4, 2012 18:49:22 GMT -5
Plus with people like Lucius throwning money around, if the ministry did have people stationed at the post office, then the DEs could easily get at Harry's letters, either through paying the ministry's operatives to hand them over, or by Imperiusing the operatives.
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
Posts: 705
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Post by sherza on Jul 4, 2012 19:08:50 GMT -5
Again ... at the time of the blackout (I'm not referring to the owl-redirect that was in place when Harry was little ... that was sensible, in that malicious packages could have got to him, and he'dve drowned under the weight of them) the Order was guarding Privet Drive.
Repeat. There was someone trustworthy from the Order on that street EVERY DAY. WHY in the name of god couldn't Harry's friends have been allowed to give letters to the guards in order for them to be passed to Harry? There is, then, no danger of an intercept via owls or Muggle post. And if they really had to, they could have kept the mail with only one or two Order members, like Tonks, or Moody (both of whom seemed to spend a lot of time on Privet Drive) who are more than capable of defending themselves if some idiot DE does spot them and try something.
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Post by Dimcairien on Jul 4, 2012 19:20:13 GMT -5
Interesting idea, but think about what Harry might to do Tonks or Moody if they randomly tried to hand him a letter. Yes, it would make perfect sense for the letter to get to him that way, but I think they only person Harry would trust would be Remus.
I tend to think that what made him relax and trust the Order when they came to collect him was Remus' presence.
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sherza
Head Boy/Girl
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Post by sherza on Jul 4, 2012 19:36:49 GMT -5
And *that* could have been fixed by a quick chat with Dumbledore before he went home.
"Harry, with Voldie back, the DE's are likely to be more active. I think it best if you stay in the house as much as possible, as the wards simply don't cover the whole town, and the further you are from the house, the more danger you're in.
Also, I'm going to ask you not to send any mail via owl, or Muggle post. I'm not going to cut you off entirely ... I'll explain how I plan to deal with that."
*Dumbledore explains briefly about the Order, and introduces Tonks, and the fact she and a few others are going to be keeping an eye on the area lest DE's show up* "Tonks and Remus will be in charge of passing on your mail. Anyone wanting to write you will pass them the letters, and you give them your replies.'"
Not so hard, is it?
Oh, something that occurred to me, regarding Harry and Occlumency.
Snape is the *only* one who can teach Harry? Yeah. No. I REFUSE to believe that paranoid-out-his-ass Moody doesn't know Occlumency. He could very easily have taught Harry the beginning steps, the basics. If Snape is, indeed, better than Moody at it, then Harry can go learn the more advanced bits from him once he's got the basics down. Reduces the time the two of them have to spend together, if nothing else.
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Post by physicssquid on Jul 4, 2012 19:52:40 GMT -5
Oh, something that occurred to me, regarding Harry and Occlumency. Snape is the *only* one who can teach Harry? Yeah. No. I REFUSE to believe that paranoid-out-his-ass Moody doesn't know Occlumency. He could very easily have taught Harry the beginning steps, the basics. If Snape is, indeed, better than Moody at it, then Harry can go learn the more advanced bits from him once he's got the basics down. Reduces the time the two of them have to spend together, if nothing else. There's another person that people seem to overlook, who might be able to do Occlumency. And that's Hagrid, because if he hadn't at least known the basics, he would have told Quirrellmort how to get passed Fluffy a lot sooner, without being tricked into revealing the information through a card game and lots of alcohol. |
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sherza
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Post by sherza on Jul 4, 2012 20:15:54 GMT -5
either that or something about his half-giant makeup makes legilimency not work, or really unreliable or something, but I definitely agree that *something* kept Quirrell from just fishing the info out of Hagrid's brain the easy way.
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Post by readingwizard4 on Jul 4, 2012 20:19:55 GMT -5
That's an interesting point about Hagrid. Makes me wonder if Remus or Greyback have occlumency shielding as well? I've seen a fic or two where he did. Can't remember them off the top of my head though
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