Bashing

[sherza]

Y'ain't the only one that thinks it was wrong as hell for Dumbledore to let Draco stay in that school, Kitty. Trust me!

And I can guaran-damn-tee you that Dumbledore did NOT investigate all options to rid Harry of that Horcrux. Because I can guarantee you he didn't look into Muggle methods.

See, even if Harry had to die to get rid of the little farker? We simple Muggles have several ways to 'kill' a person and bring them back for heavy-duty medical procedures. Ways that could have been done to Harry with FAR less risk to him, the wizarding world, and the WHOLE world.

Instead of risking god and everything on a 1-in-a-million gamble that

1) Harry would value his life so little that he would walk in front of Voldie and let the bastard Avada him without any attempt at self-defense.

Note: I said *his own* life, not everyone elses. Because most *normal*, *non-suicidal* people? Won't march willingly to their deaths with no thought of self defense. People do sacrifice their lives, of course, but the vast majority of them at least give a thought to self-defense.

2) That Voldemort would be the one to Avada Harry and not someone else. I mean, holy shit. You're telling me that someone like Bella wouldn't have tried to off Harry if they got the chance? That it even needed to be Voldie? WTF is with that, anyway?

[Nahara46]

Sherza... I don't know a single muggle-method that could kill a soul, let alone kill on in a body while leaving the other alone. Especially at that point in time. Anyways, I'm pretty extra sure that Voldy told the death eaters that Harry was his to kill...

[Ayrine Sun]

Jul 18, 2012 13:25:00 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Really? Seeing as you are usually the one who thinks canon is perfect ...
Let me ask you something. If it were your school, and there were attempted murders and the headmaster knew who it was, but kept them there because he wanted to protect the murderer from the consequences of his deeds, even if it endangered you and your friends, would you still feel the same? Is it ok to protect the murderer above yourself? In any normal school, Dumbledore would have kicked Draco out, no matter the consequences for Draco. But in canon he didn't, to protect the murderers. I am sure the scheming old goat could have found another excuse why he was expelled to protect Snape if necessary. But obviously I am the only one who feels it is wrong to put the life of murderers above these of innocents.

The "murderer" is a child who is forced to act that way because he is menaced of death, Draco is a bully but not a murderer.

Dumbledore put Snape to monitor him and prevent those incidents but Draco didn't trust Snape.
Draco didn't mean to hurt Ron and Katy, he wanted to kill Dumledore and I am sure that he knew inwardly that it would fail because his tentative were really obvious.
And if there were in our world then Harry should have been shipped to Azkaban for murder attempt on Draco USING the Sectumsempra.

And I will ask you a question too, you are a muggle that lives in HP World and there is a psychopath who try to kill you and your family and all muggle, wouldn't you want Dumbledore to save you all? Or you rather he only protect Harry?

Jul 18, 2012 13:25:00 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

As I said, Dumbledore should have at least called the DMLE to investigate, but he did nothing, as usual. Why call the police in a case of attempted murder, after all? They might have found the real culprit and no blame on Snape. It even could lead to an investigation into the Malfoys, maybe. Not all Aurors were corrupt, after all, and Voldemort hadn't taken over yet. And that's probably the crux of the problem - we have to protect them at all costs.

But you have to prove it that he is the culprit. Ask Aurors if you want but even Aurors need leads. there is nothing that prove Draco involvement other that Snape's information. Slughorn said that the poison was anonymous. The Opale was given to Katy in the a pub with hundred persons. Even katy couldn't remember who gave it to her.

Jul 18, 2012 12:22:43 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Sure. But Dumbledore's assumption that there is no other way can't be proven, either. Besides, it would have been nice of him to tell Harry "Sorry, I have searched everywhere for another solution, but couldn't find one, you will have to die". Instead he hid it from him (after telling him he's going to tell him everything - another lie) and even from Snape, manipulating both of them in the most callous way. I'd have much less problems with the whole thing if Dumbledore had had at least the guts to be honest.

Dumbledore is a manipulator but my understanding of his character is that if there was another way less dangerous he would have used it. He never has the guts to face what he did, I know that, that why he retarded his confrontation with Grindwald and never said anything about it to Harry. It's one of his flaws along with distrust and manipulation but he would gratuitously hurt others when he could avoid it. Dumbledore did care about Harry but also cared about all others.

[physicssquid]

Voldy did tel the death eaters that Harry was his to kill, several times.

1st Quote:
"I shall attend to the boy in person. There have been too many mistakes where Harry Potter is concerned. Some of them have been my own. That Potter lives is due more to my errors than to his triumphs."

2nd Quote:
"I must be the one to kill Harry Potter, and I shall be."

Both from DH Chapter 1.

[sherza]

Jul 18, 2012 13:47:18 GMT -5 Nahara46 said:

Sherza... I don't know a single muggle-method that could kill a soul, let alone kill on in a body while leaving the other alone. Especially at that point in time. Anyways, I'm pretty extra sure that Voldy told the death eaters that Harry was his to kill...

The point isn't to kill a soul.

The point is to 'kill' Harry so the Horcrux abandons ship. 'Destroy the container', so to speak. And they had such methods by the '90's. I'm thinking primarily of things like being put on bypass or suchlike things I've seen done on Grey's Anatomy, where heart and lungs and all the rest have stopped, which means dead.

Now would it have worked? I believe so, but maybe it wouldn't. That's not the point. The point is, I know for damn sure Dumbledore didn't look into anything like that, because he, like the vast majority of the Wizarding world, thinks Muggles are incompetent idiots who can't possibly have anything to contribute to the Magical world, or have solutions to problems that Magicals haven't discovered, or any of that sort.

Basically, he thinks Muggles are primitive savages, who are to be pitied for their lack of enlightened understanding and educated intelligence.

[Nahara46]

I don't think it would have worked... The container doesn't need to be alive. After all, most of the 'containers' are inanimate objects, so I don't think the horcrux would leave until destroyed magically, or the body disintegrated.

[Ayrine Sun]

sherza, if you stop a heart there is no proof that the soul will leave immediately and not after few hours, and even if they do (Harry and Tom's soul), there is no proof that two wouldn't return back.
And I assure you that reanimation doesn't work at 100% rate, it's like 50% of times when it doesn't work.
Plus past 3 minutes the brain is too damaged and the patient will become a vegetable.
Your solution relies on more on hazard then Dumbledore who relied on Lily's protection.

[Kitty279]

Jul 18, 2012 14:05:00 GMT -5 @Ayrine Sun said:

The "murderer" is a child who is forced to act that way because he is menaced of death, Draco is a bully but not a murderer.

According to you, Dumbledore had to let Draco continue to protect Snape, who isn't exactly a harmless little angel. As a DE, I am sure he had to kill. But ok, if you think that being threatened justifies trying to kill others, then there's nothing I can say. But I don't see why Harry is supposed to get himself killed if Draco can't be expected to?

Dumbledore put Snape to monitor him and prevent those incidents but Draco didn't trust Snape.
Draco didn't mean to hurt Ron and Katy, he wanted to kill Dumledore and I am sure that he knew inwardly that it would fail because his tentative were really obvious.

Doesn't change the outcome, though.

And if there were in our world then Harry should have been shipped to Azkaban for murder attempt on Draco USING the Sectumsempra.

And Draco should have been shipped to the neighbouring cell for using the Crucio, which is an one-way-ticket to Azkaban. So what's your point? Draco can get off scot-free because he's oh-so-menaced, but Harry has to be punished for not just standing there?

And I will ask you a question too, you are a muggle that lives in HP World and there is a psychopath who try to kill you and your family and all muggle, wouldn't you want Dumbledore to save you all? Or you rather he only protect Harry?

You didn't really answer my question, but I'll answer yours. I'd expect that old coot to take care of the problem himself, instead of waiting for a child to do the dirty work for him! He should at least have tried to get the Horcruxes himself!

But you have to prove it that he is the culprit. Ask Aurors if you want but even Aurors need leads. there is nothing that prove Draco involvement other that Snape's information. Slughorn said that the poison was anonymous. The Opale was given to Katy in the a pub with hundred persons. Even katy couldn't remember who gave it to her.

Oh great. By that logic, it's useless to investigate in a crime case altogether if there's not a witness standing there the moment it has happened telling you he has watched everything from A to Z. No need to find out if someone saw Katie in the toilet with someone else or anything, right, no need to put the puzzle pieces together.

Jul 18, 2012 12:22:43 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Dumbledore is a manipulator but my understanding of his character is that if there was another way less dangerous he would have used it. He never has the guts to face what he did, I know that, that why he retarded his confrontation with Grindwald and never said anything about it to Harry. It's one of his flaws along with distrust and manipulation but he would gratuitously hurt others when he could avoid it. Dumbledore did care about Harry but also cared about all others.

Again, he should have used the Order instead of leaving everything to a trio of untrained teenagers not even out of school yet to get the job done faster. Even if Harry in the end had to kill Voldemort, he shouldn't have been left alone with the whole mess at a time when it was already a near lost cause.
And your definition of care is very different from mine. For me forcing a child knowingly into an abusive "home" is not caring, plain and simply. And don't start about these questionable stupid blood wards, I'll never believe they really worked well or there wasn't another solution at least after a few years.

Posted by physicssquid on Today at 2:09pm
Voldy did tel the death eaters that Harry was his to kill, several times.

1st Quote:
"I shall attend to the boy in person. There have been too many mistakes where Harry Potter is concerned. Some of them have been my own. That Potter lives is due more to my errors than to his triumphs."

2nd Quote:
"I must be the one to kill Harry Potter, and I shall be."

Both from DH Chapter 1.

Yes. In DH. But how many attempts on Harry's life did we have before? Even if you count Quirrell as Voldemort himself, what if Harry was with some Muggleborn rounding the corner when the Basilisk was on the loose? What if Lockhart had left him and Ron down there in the Chamber? No one would have been able to open it again. What if he had died when the Dementors came during the Quidditch match? What if he died in the Tournament? What if Crouch Jr. had managed to kill him after the graveyard, as he intended? What if one of the Death Eaters in the Ministry had deliberately or accidentally killed Harry? Particularly Bellatrix, who was barely reined in? What if it had been Harry who touched the necklace or drank the poison? There was nothing Voldemort could have done.

[sherza]

Jul 18, 2012 14:33:26 GMT -5 @Ayrine Sun said:

sherza, if you stop a heart there is no proof that the soul will leave immediately and not after few hours, and even if they do (Harry and Tom's soul), there is no proof that two wouldn't return back.

Then that's when you combine Muggle with Magical. Do some sort of whammy to separate the two and/or encourage the horcrux on its way now the 'container' is weakened, or something.

And I assure you that reanimation doesn't work at 100% rate, it's like 50% of times when it doesn't work.
Plus past 3 minutes the brain is too damaged and the patient will become a vegetable.
Your solution relies on more on hazard then Dumbledore who relied on Lily's protection.

50% is still a damn sight better than the one-in-a-billion shot that Dumbledore was depending on. Because Dumbledore's solution did not depend on Lily's protection.

It depended, in its entirety, on the two things I pointed out earlier.

That 1) Harry would account his life of so little worth he'd let Voldemort kill him without even trying to defend himself

and

2) That Voldemort would be the one to kill him.

Now, even IF the DE's obeyed Voldie's 'don't kill him' orders, it was a WAR. People were shooting and shielding and ducking all over the damn place whenever there was a fight between the two sides. The chances of a deflected spell hitting and killing Harry were REALLY FREAKING HIGH. Or him being crushed under falling stonework ala Fred.

Lily's protection was only good against Voldemort personally *prior* to the end of Year Four. There's never been any indication that the protection kept him safe from DE's ... if it did, Snape would never have been able to touch Harry, ever, yet he did. So did Crouch Jr before the Third Task. So if one of their spells hit him, even by accident, there's no reason why he wouldn't have been killed, and Lily's protection for DAMN sure doesn't protect Harry against any other threat, so falling masonry, dragon fire etc could all have killed Harry before Dumbledore's grand plan could be played out.

Yes, there are risks with my offered method, but they're a damn sight less than Dumbledore's plan. My plan at least has a chance of Harry living through it. As far as Dumbledore knew, Harry would flat-out die and that would be the end of it.

[physicssquid]

Here's another problem with using Muggle methods. The books mention that Muggle technology won't work around magic, so what effect would stopping a wizard's heart have on the technology used? How do we know that Harry's magic wouldn't interfere with the technology they would use to bring him back after 'killing' him? If it did interfere, then Harry would die, and nothing would bring him back.

[Ayrine Sun]

No, I am saying that he let Draco continue because he needed Snape free, trusted and at Hogwarts, because Dumbledore was going to die and Hogwarts would be under the Carrow and Snape wouldn't be able to help Harry.

My point is In our world Draco would be in prison along with Harry, Ginny, Fred and George and Sirius and Remus and a lot of others. That what I meant. They all did stupid things that nearly killed others and got out with them. And again you have to prove that Draco was the culprit.
Katy herself said that she was interrogated after her waking up, so there was an investigation but no lead. No lead that says the culprit was in Hogwarts.


My answer is that Draco should be protected by the police because he is a victim too but the police and the government is about to fall in the hand of the enemy. Arresting Draco while he did something terrible will endanger everyone in the end because the one who put the Carrows on leash was Snape.

Kitty, if Dumbledore was able to finish Voldemort he would have had done it already, the war started 11 years before Harry's birth or the prophecy. You think Dumbledore was doing what?

It's just that Voldemort was strong and didn't UNDERESTIMATE Dumbledore, he was always able to get away before it began being dangerous for him.
Voldemort and Dumbledore have the same power, a power That Voldemort understand and distrust. Harry power is something foreign and Voldemort look down on him. The only way to kill Voldemort is to use his own errors against him.

And Harry is an Horcrux, not Dumbledore. And finally, Dumbledore tried to destroy the horcrux himself and I already explained why Dumbledore didn't trust the order with the information but trusted Harry. Voldemort wouldn't try enter Harry's mind but would have if he had captured the order's members.

And we should agree to disagree, because for me the fact that Voldemort had to wait until Harry's 17 means that the wards worked and it changes everything.

[sherza]

Jul 18, 2012 15:06:10 GMT -5 physicssquid said:

Here's another problem with using Muggle methods. The books mention that Muggle technology won't work around magic, so what effect would stopping a wizard's heart have on the technology used? How do we know that Harry's magic wouldn't interfere with the technology they would use to bring him back after 'killing' him? If it did interfere, then Harry would die, and nothing would bring him back.

Magic only affects tech when there's a LOT of magic around (like at Hogwarts). If wizards themselves messed up tech, no muggleborn would ever be able to live in a normal house with a TV/fridge/etc that worked.

[Ayrine Sun]

Jul 18, 2012 14:55:34 GMT -5 sherza said:

Then that's when you combine Muggle with Magical. Do some sort of whammy to separate the two and/or encourage the horcrux on its way now the 'container' is weakened, or something.

How? you tell Tom's soul shoo and grab Harry's? And how do you differentiate the two?

Jul 18, 2012 14:55:34 GMT -5 sherza said:

50% is still a damn sight better than the one-in-a-billion shot that Dumbledore was depending on. Because Dumbledore's solution did not depend on Lily's protection.

It depended, in its entirety, on the two things I pointed out earlier.

That 1) Harry would account his life of so little worth he'd let Voldemort kill him without even trying to defend himself

and

2) That Voldemort would be the one to kill him.

Now, even IF the DE's obeyed Voldie's 'don't kill him' orders, it was a WAR. People were shooting and shielding and ducking all over the damn place whenever there was a fight between the two sides. The chances of a deflected spell hitting and killing Harry were REALLY FREAKING HIGH. Or him being crushed under falling stonework ala Fred.

Lily's protection was only good against Voldemort personally *prior* to the end of Year Four. There's never been any indication that the protection kept him safe from DE's ... if it did, Snape would never have been able to touch Harry, ever, yet he did. So did Crouch Jr before the Third Task. So if one of their spells hit him, even by accident, there's no reason why he wouldn't have been killed, and Lily's protection for DAMN sure doesn't protect Harry against any other threat, so falling masonry, dragon fire etc could all have killed Harry before Dumbledore's grand plan could be played out.

Yes, there are risks with my offered method, but they're a damn sight less than Dumbledore's plan. My plan at least has a chance of Harry living through it. As far as Dumbledore knew, Harry would flat-out die and that would be the end of it.

It's clear that we see things differently:
It's depended on lily love (that Dumbledore trusted), Harry senselessness (that dumbledore hoped) and Voldemort arrogance and cruelty (that Dumbledore foreseen).
And the same possibility could arrive after the soul is 'supposedly' extracted. Harry could still die fighting, I don't see your point. Yes, if Harry die in the war accidentally, he dies. it's a war. I don't see him hiding while letting other fight for him, Voldemort KILLED his parents, I like HELL would want to take revenge.
Your method doesn't have 50%. it has less that 1 /millions. and it doesn't rely on any basis but pure chance.

[physicssquid]

Jul 18, 2012 15:22:30 GMT -5 sherza said:

Jul 18, 2012 15:06:10 GMT -5 physicssquid said:

Here's another problem with using Muggle methods. The books mention that Muggle technology won't work around magic, so what effect would stopping a wizard's heart have on the technology used? How do we know that Harry's magic wouldn't interfere with the technology they would use to bring him back after 'killing' him? If it did interfere, then Harry would die, and nothing would bring him back.

Magic only affects tech when there's a LOT of magic around (like at Hogwarts). If wizards themselves messed up tech, no muggleborn would ever be able to live in a normal house with a TV/fridge/etc that worked.

I didn't mean in general. I meant what would happen if Harry's magic reacted to the way he was 'killed' and interfered with the technology to bring him back? What effect would stopping a wizard's heart have on his magic?

How do we know that stopping Harry's heart and 'killing' him wouldn't cause his magic to lash out, and have the same effect as all the magic in Hogwarts? How do we know that technology doesn't react badly to people casting spells on it? Because if it did, and Harry's magic lashed out, then the technology would be fried.

[Kouji-Wolf]

I'm not sure this discussion is actually going anywhere. Like Sun said, agree to disagree and move on?

Not sure what topic to change to, though...

[Nahara46]

So, How about that Salazar Slytherin? What do you think his relationship tot he other founders was?

[Kouji-Wolf]

I think they were friends, but at the time he had a semi-valid reason for mistrusting muggle-borns. In medieval history, those suspected of witchcraft were burned at the stake. That's when wizards went into hiding, from what I can tell. Imagine being a muggle-born when wizards are feared, afraid that your family might turn you in. Might that cause you to turn on the wizarding world? I'm not saying every muggle-born would, but it is a possibility that Slytherin seems to have considered. In the present time, the persecution against muggle-borns is just ridiculous, but when Hogwarts was founded, it seems like it might be a valid fear.

[Ayrine Sun]

I think he was a little paranoid. And the persecution against the wizard didn't help. And he went to far with his chamber. But he never said that muggles and muggle-borns were inferiors, just that he didn't trust them. It seems that his beliefs were twisted by purebloods to match their agenda.

[Nahara46]

Personally, I picture him to have gone a bit insane by the time he created the chamber of secrets.

[physicssquid]

We don't know if the story Binns told in book 2 really was the truth or just made up by people who lived a long time after hte founders died.
The books don't even mention whether the founders were pureblods, halfbloods or muggleborns. Nor do they mention whether their spouses were purebloods, halfbloods or muggleborns, so any story about them has to be taken with a pinch of salt, depending on what head-canon a fanfic writer comes up with.

[Nahara46]

That is true. You just have to play telephone to see how the stories could have become distorted.

[physicssquid]

Here's another question. How do we know that the Chamber wasn't built as a command centre in case of attack? How do we know that the other founders didn't know about it? Who's to say that the Basilisk wasn't merely a protector for the school, a second line of defense in case the wards fell?

[dracosfairmaiden]

I read a story where the whole reason Slytherin built the chamber was to protect wizards. Magic wasn't acceptable during the founder's time so he tried to protect them. But over time, people's stories became distorted.

[Ayrine Sun]

Jul 18, 2012 16:24:08 GMT -5 Nahara46 said:

Personally, I picture him to have gone a bit insane by the time he created the chamber of secrets.

Inbreeding *shudders* makes you wonder if they aren't that violent and half crazy because of the inbreeding too.
PS: I like the CAPTCHA of this forum, give you interesting combinations.

[Kouji-Wolf]

For all we know, the Chamber might have been meant as a defense for the school if it was ever attacked. We don't know his true intentions. And history always twists things. And, as has been proven on this very site with each of us, each person reads into things differently. Pureblood supremists see him as a muggle-hater because that's what they want to see. It doesn't help that he seems to have personally chosen mostly purebloods.

[dracosfairmaiden]

My sentiments exactly.

[Ayrine Sun]

But why make it open only by parseltongue. I mean what if Salazar's line extinguished. How to use it after that?

[sherza]

Jul 18, 2012 16:36:15 GMT -5 @Ayrine Sun said:

But why make it open only by parseltongue. I mean what if Salazar's line extinguished. How to use it after that?

Maybe it wasn't only openable by parseltongues. A LOT of stuff can get lost to the mists of time in a thousand years. It's entirely conceivable that there was originally a spell or password or something that anyone could use, and Salazar only implanted the parseltongue as a backup ... it wouldn't matter what the hell you said, as long as it was parseltongue.

[Kouji-Wolf]

Maybe it was only meant for when he was alive. Or there was another entrance that Harry never found that didn't need parseltongue. Can you really imagine Slytherin willingly sliding down that slimy pipe?

[Ayrine Sun]

Jul 18, 2012 16:40:01 GMT -5 sherza said:

Jul 18, 2012 16:36:15 GMT -5 @Ayrine Sun said:

But why make it open only by parseltongue. I mean what if Salazar's line extinguished. How to use it after that?

Maybe it wasn't only openable by parseltongues. A LOT of stuff can get lost to the mists of time in a thousand years. It's entirely conceivable that there was originally a spell or password or something that anyone could use, and Salazar only implanted the parseltongue as a backup ... it wouldn't matter what the hell you said, as long as it was parseltongue.

Possible and Voldemort, influenced by the purebloods extremist lies use it to attack innocents. Salazar may have rolled in his grave.