Bashing

[physicssquid]

I certainly can't imagine him sliding down the pipe, even if it wasn't slimy and disgusting. There had to have been either another entrance, or the parseltongue was just a back-up. Maybe there was another way, for others to enter, and because he was the one to build the place, he put in a way for him to get in and out without revealing the main method to any attackers.

[viralic1]

[Kouji-Wolf]

Ron and Hermione were both 12, actually. Hermione's birthday is September 19th and Ron's is March 1st.

[physicssquid]

And Harry was 11, not 10.

[sherza]

Ultimately, their ages don't matter.

Three pre-teen kids managed to best the protections that Dumbledore had set up. THAT is the point.

[Kitty279]

Binns didn't have a clue about the truth when it came to the CoS, so why should the story about the founders be any more true? It is easy to imagine that in the founding days of Hogwarts, the problem of witch hunts made Salazar a bit careful or even paranoid about Muggleborns and the consequences to take them in - could they return home for the summer, for instance? Would they then be threatened? That would be valid concerns, but it would be so easy to twist that into hate of any non-purebloods later on, and particularly for someone like Voldemort.

And I'd like to know what exactly these books Hermione quoted said about Harry. On Halloween 1981, it was down to the three Potters and Voldemort. Lily and James were killed, Voldemort vanished, Harry was a baby and hidden by Dumbledore. The latter didn't even seem to go there himself to investigate. So, how do they know what happened? I strongly suspect there are some rather wild stories out there ... and everyone would believe them like their gospel, even if they were pure imagination from beginning to end.

As for the Chamber itself, I could imagine it having another entrance from the forest or something like that. Would make a good escape route. If the other end was overgrown over the last 1000 years, no one would know. And yes, it makes sense that there would have been another way to open the entrance in what is now the girl's bathroom.

Jul 18, 2012 22:26:43 GMT -5 sherza said:

Ultimately, their ages don't matter.

Three pre-teen kids managed to best the protections that Dumbledore had set up. THAT is the point.

Protections that were supposed to keep the most evil Dark Lord out who Dumbledore couldn't take down ... Real genius, our headmaster

[sherza]

The thing that's driven me nuts for a long time ...

Given that only a handful of people ever saw it that first day ...

how in the name of GOD does everyone and their monkey's cousin's uncle's third child know that Harry Potter has a lightning-shaped scar? Enough to instantaneously identify him on the street, in those random encounters when he was a kid?

[Kitty279]

Monkey's cousin's uncle's third child? *snicker* Love that!

Well, he looked a lot like James, that might have helped. But still, that's true. Either Hagrid has blabbed it out in the Three Broomsticks when drunk, or Dumbledore fired the BWL cult to build up the idea of the big saviour.

[sherza]

Jul 19, 2012 0:53:06 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Monkey's cousin's uncle's third child? *snicker* Love that!

Well, he looked a lot like James, that might have helped. But still, that's true. Either Hagrid has blabbed it out in the Three Broomsticks when drunk, or Dumbledore fired the BWL cult to build up the idea of the big saviour.

Honestly, I'm more inclined to the latter.

Because really, who ELSE would be believed without demur about the events that took place in that house, enough so that people printed it as if it were established fact? Who else had a vested interest in making the Wizarding world look to one bitty baby boy to solve all their problems rather than, you know, growing some cojones and doing it themselves, because after all, the Hero Must Die? It makes a rather horrifying amount of sense that Dumbledore'd pull something like that.

[Kitty279]

When you put it like that, it shoulds horribly logical Yes, Hagrid might not be able to keep his mouth shut, but his account would probably make less sense and wouldn't feed the cult so much. Grrr. Another point against the MOB.

[misschsparkle]

Jul 16, 2012 0:27:42 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Just pointing out that you can see some things a bit different But you know already that I belong to that minority who don't think Molly or Dumbledore are God and infallible and don't hesitate to call them out on their flaws.

Uh, shouldn't that be majority since everyone loves to bash them? And I don't think either are god or infallible, I just think that too many people give Molly a hard time and sometimes Dumbledore.

[Kitty279]

Seeing that we have had enough arguments about these two and there are many out there who think they can't do wrong, I'd not simply assume that the majority does think like I do. I know many don't.

[misschsparkle]

Jul 20, 2012 12:57:20 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Seeing that we have had enough arguments about these two and there are many out there who think they can't do wrong, I'd not simply assume that the majority does think like I do. I know many don't.

I've yet to meet someone who thinks they can't do wrong and so many people, even if they don't bash, give these characters a really hard time in their stories. So, in my experience, the majority definitely does not think they are gods.

[misschsparkle]

Jul 18, 2012 16:44:23 GMT -5 physicssquid said:

I certainly can't imagine him sliding down the pipe, even if it wasn't slimy and disgusting. There had to have been either another entrance, or the parseltongue was just a back-up. Maybe there was another way, for others to enter, and because he was the one to build the place, he put in a way for him to get in and out without revealing the main method to any attackers.

I think that pipe was more for the Basilisk's convenience but it wouldn't be hard for a full grown wizard to just clean himself afterwards. And the entrance wouldn't be so secret if there are loads of ways to get out of it, plus, only his heir was meant to be able to get in, so....that kind of says only a parseltongue could get in. Otherwise, it's not specif enough.

[misschsparkle]

Jul 18, 2012 11:55:19 GMT -5 @Ayrine Sun said:

Jul 18, 2012 11:17:33 GMT -5 misschsparkle said:

Um, you claimed that Sirius couldn't tell Harry because Dumbledore would kick him out onto the streets, meaning he'd be on the run. You kinda directed said that Dumbledore would rat Sirius out if he crossed a line.

Never said that Sparkle. when?

Sorry, I got you confused with sherza

[misschsparkle]

Jul 18, 2012 11:56:36 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Jul 18, 2012 11:34:28 GMT -5 physicssquid said:

That's a good question, though I doubt that the DEs would offer to spare them. Voldemort only offered to spare Lily because Snape asked him to, and I doubt any DE would ask for other DEs to spare random strangers.

Wasn't so much thinking of sparing them altogether, but the parent refusing to go aside so the child can be tortured before their eyes. Wouldn't that give them some sort of choice?

Jul 18, 2012 11:42:26 GMT -5 misschsparkle said:

He did scold Harry in Fourth year....but look what happened in fifth year. He SCOLDED Harry for not acting like James and taking a massive risk by sneaking out of the school. Plus, he never bothered to apologise or consider how that made Harry feel. We don't know what Lily felt about Sirius but it's clear James would have made Sirius godfather no matter what. Plus, they didn't imagine that he would ever actually have to look after Harry, because they would have thought they'd live through it. James trusted Sirius like a brother and forgave him even when he almost killed another student. The two of them went back to bullying that student pretty quickly so James obviously didn't see Sirius's darker side.

We have already gone over the fact that at this point in time Sirius was heavily influenced by being locked up in a house he hated, that brought up very bad memories, basically exchanging one prison for another, being insulted by Molly and taunted by Snape, forced to be inactive (which is against his nature, from what I can tell) and feeling useless, which didn't do him any good. Plus, the Horcrux may have influenced him. So I actually understand that he reacted like that, even though it was stupid and unfair.

They didn't expect that they could die so early? In a war? And with Voldemort after them? Really? Why did they go into hiding long before they were killed, then?

When was that incident? Sixth year? Is there any record of them bullying Snape even after that?

He still never bothered to apologise and was putting pressure on Harry. Sirius could have kept himself busy, for instance, finding what changed in the last decade, praticse dueling. Instead, he was content to drink and feel sorry for himself.

James had a massive ego and considering he happily run away with a dangerous werewolf, I doubt he had much sense of impending danger of death. And.....they actually only went into hiding a week before they were killed.

If you read the seventh book, in Snape's memories, he was almost killed at the start of fifth year. And it was the end of fifth year, the Owl's incident occurs....thus, making it plain they were not only bullying but actually stepped it up. And when Harry asked did they leave Snape alone, Sirius replied he was a special case and that they only worked to keep it hidden from lily but didn't actually stop. So, clearly, they were bullying Snape long after almost killing him.

This also shows they don't have much of an idea of death or how close someone could come to it.

[misschsparkle]

Jul 18, 2012 12:04:31 GMT -5 @Ayrine Sun said:

Jul 18, 2012 11:37:16 GMT -5 misschsparkle said:

Why would you get rid of the Centuers, their not doing any harm?

Centaurs feels persecuted and don't accept wizards in their territory and punish them if they enter, kids are reckless and break rules, the two combined mean troubles. I have nothing against centaurs, but it's dangerous to have them there.

Yeah but they weren't bothered in first year, were they? They were stressed in fifth year because of the stars and what the Ministry was up to. Add in Hagrid's half brother, they were extremely stressed then throw Umbridge into the mix. But since they never actually harmed Umbridge, they clearly wouldn't have hurt the kids, just maybe have scared them. Most kids would never stray that far into the forest anyway, so there's no reason the centaurs can't stay there.

[sherza]

Jul 20, 2012 13:47:18 GMT -5 misschsparkle said:

He still never bothered to apologise and was putting pressure on Harry. Sirius could have kept himself busy, for instance, finding what changed in the last decade, praticse dueling. Instead, he was content to drink and feel sorry for himself.

Oh really?

I'd like to see you manage to be so reasonable under the same circumstances.

1) Get thrown in jail for a crime you didn't commit, and spend the next twelve years reliving the worst moments of your life.
2) Discover the bastard that commited the crime you're accused of is close enough to your godson to kill him.
3) Come *that* close to freedom, only to be denied.
4) Come *that* close to having your soul sucked out. Twice in one night. (Fudge sending for a dementor, and then the incident at the lake)
5) Spend a YEAR living in a cave and eating rats in order to be close to said godson who was fradulently entered into the TriWiz and in danger of getting killed
6) Be forced to return to the childhood home you hate, where all the bad crap of your childhood took place.
7) Said home has played host to a horcrux for something like fifteen or sixteen years, and is still there the ENTIRE year you're there. Given that the TRIO, who care about each other, were about two steps away from killing each other under that thing's influence, how much damage did it manage to do in that house?
8) Be forced into allowing people you despise into said home, where they promptly give you shit all the damn time
9) Be forced into allowing people who you don't despise, but who treat you like shit, into the house.
10) Also spend large chunks of time alone, with only a barmy, vicious-tongued house-elf and an even more insane and vicious-tongued portrait for company.

Given all those factors, I want to see YOU manage to be a perfect human being.

Seriously, people. Lay off Sirius. He wasn't perfect, he did some insanely stupid things as a teenager, but holy shit.

As for practicing dueling? WHERE? Far's we know, there's not a viable space in the Black house to do so. And he can't go to Hogwarts. There's only so much reading anyone can do, especially when the books in the place are ... well, horrifying. He couldn't go outside at all for fear of being seen and captured, either. So ... yeah. Just ... chill. He said something unfortunate, I agree, but for god's sake, considering what he was dealing with, I'm honestly surprised he didn't just snap and try to kill Snape or Molly, who were the ones that gave him the most grief.

[princedice1]

That would of been awesome, if Sirius did snap and went totally bezerk on Molly.

[G. Novella]

See, I don't think Molly gave grief to Sirius that long. I came to this conclusion upon realizing she came to a truce with Sirius by Christmas, and was extremely nice to him. The niceness while expected was a lot more than necessary for two people who seemingly can't get along. Maybe this is just my opinion, but I think by that time they more or less just danced around each other and were friendly in some manner. Maybe the horcrux not affecting Molly made her less hostile and kinder to Sirius.

[aurora]

Jul 20, 2012 15:23:36 GMT -5 sherza said:

Jul 20, 2012 13:47:18 GMT -5 misschsparkle said:

He still never bothered to apologise and was putting pressure on Harry. Sirius could have kept himself busy, for instance, finding what changed in the last decade, praticse dueling. Instead, he was content to drink and feel sorry for himself.

Oh really?

I'd like to see you manage to be so reasonable under the same circumstances.

1) Get thrown in jail for a crime you didn't commit, and spend the next twelve years reliving the worst moments of your life.
2) Discover the bastard that commited the crime you're accused of is close enough to your godson to kill him.
3) Come *that* close to freedom, only to be denied.
4) Come *that* close to having your soul sucked out. Twice in one night. (Fudge sending for a dementor, and then the incident at the lake)
5) Spend a YEAR living in a cave and eating rats in order to be close to said godson who was fradulently entered into the TriWiz and in danger of getting killed
6) Be forced to return to the childhood home you hate, where all the bad crap of your childhood took place.
7) Said home has played host to a horcrux for something like fifteen or sixteen years, and is still there the ENTIRE year you're there. Given that the TRIO, who care about each other, were about two steps away from killing each other under that thing's influence, how much damage did it manage to do in that house?
8) Be forced into allowing people you despise into said home, where they promptly give you shit all the damn time
9) Be forced into allowing people who you don't despise, but who treat you like shit, into the house.
10) Also spend large chunks of time alone, with only a barmy, vicious-tongued house-elf and an even more insane and vicious-tongued portrait for company.

Given all those factors, I want to see YOU manage to be a perfect human being.

Seriously, people. Lay off Sirius. He wasn't perfect, he did some insanely stupid things as a teenager, but holy shit.

As for practicing dueling? WHERE? Far's we know, there's not a viable space in the Black house to do so. And he can't go to Hogwarts. There's only so much reading anyone can do, especially when the books in the place are ... well, horrifying. He couldn't go outside at all for fear of being seen and captured, either. So ... yeah. Just ... chill. He said something unfortunate, I agree, but for god's sake, considering what he was dealing with, I'm honestly surprised he didn't just snap and try to kill Snape or Molly, who were the ones that gave him the most grief.

Amen! There was no reason for Snape and Molly to give Sirius so much grief. Considering they were in his house, I am amazed Sirius let Molly continue to stay there or let Snape anywhere near it. Because Snape could have given his reports to Dumbledore and then Dumbledore could have told the rest of the Order what was said!

[sherza]

Jul 20, 2012 15:49:48 GMT -5 G. Novella said:

See, I don't think Molly gave grief to Sirius that long. I came to this conclusion upon realizing she came to a truce with Sirius by Christmas, and was extremely nice to him. The niceness while expected was a lot more than necessary for two people who seemingly can't get along. Maybe this is just my opinion, but I think by that time they more or less just danced around each other and were friendly in some manner. Maybe the horcrux not affecting Molly made her less hostile and kinder to Sirius.

But she still gave Sirius epic levels of shit for six or seven months, even if you're right and they got over it.

Which I don't think they did. Molly is nothing if not relentless. I sincerely doubt that she ever 'made nice' with Sirius, because they would have constantly clashed over what each of them thought was best for Harry.

[G. Novella]

Actually, no, it was just approx two months, after her kids were in Hogwarts, she moved back to the Burrow (Ron was going home to Burrow) and just because Molly's relentless doesn't mean she blinds herself to accepting a person. She'd over time and being away for Sirius probably sink into poor-boy mode and she was nice to him during Christmas, lverly nice, which suggests she made up, or felt bad. Either way, she grew to like him.

[sherza]

Jul 20, 2012 16:04:42 GMT -5 G. Novella said:

Actually, no, it was just approx two months, after her kids were in Hogwarts, she moved back to the Burrow (Ron was going home to Burrow) and just because Molly's relentless doesn't mean she blinds herself to accepting a person. She'd over time and being away for Sirius probably sink into poor-boy mode and she was nice to him during Christmas, lverly nice, which suggests she made up, or felt bad. Either way, she grew to like him.

She does so blind herself! Remember Fleur? She was giving that poor girl shit right up to the wedding, and probably after! And you think she'd miraculously stop giving Sirius shit for no reason? Hah. She'd made up her mind that Sirius was a bad person and a worse influence on Harry, and that he didn't know Harry or have his best interests in mind, and she needed to protect Harry from his interference. That wasn't going to stop anytime soon.

As for her behavior around Christmas, remember, her husband had just been attacked and was in pretty sorry shape. So her mind was more on that than on giving Sirius hell. Plus ... well, Christmas. People have a tendency of at least trying to temporarily let bygones be bygones for that holiday. And then they pick right back up where they left off when the holiday's over.

[G. Novella]

Actually, Fleur did nothing to help her image either. You never saw Fleur extending a branch of friendship either, instead she went out of her way to be rude about the house, Molly's music taste, and Molly's life-style. And she relented with Fleur right before the wedding, while they didn't get on, she accepted her.

And like said before, when was Sirius making any move to be a good role model? Yes he was in GOF, but Molly thought he was a criminal, and I doubt anyone said anything. She saw Sirius at his worst, and like any person would, she judged him on that. Amd again, Horcrux influence. She was most likely staying there just a little bit after Sirius moved in, and so they both had plenty of time to become nasty and angry.

I'm not saying she thought Sirius was the perfect guardian, far from it, I'm saying she most likely realised Sirius can be a good person given the chance and has some responsability. And while I agree she had other concerns, Molly was nasty to Fleur right up until Bill's attack and even then for a bit. The fact that she was nice, overtly nice instead of polite appreciation suggests to me some kind of acceptance and possible apology on Molly's part. And again, Molly isn't the type to let things go just because of a holiday. she stuck to hating Fleur through out Christmas.

[sherza]

So because Fleur didn't kiss Molly's ass, and was highly uncomfortable among a group of people that were giving her shit (Ginny, Hermione, and Molly all three for sure, possibly others), it's all Fleur's fault and Molly is a paragon of virtue.

No. It doesn't work that way. Whether you like it or not, Molly is an overbearing, overcontrolling, judgemental piece of work, and she brought that to bear against *everyone* around her in one way or another. Especially Sirius, whom she saw as trying to usurp her 'place' as Harry's parental figure. Despite that not actually being her place. Harry liked her, yes, but he didn't ONCE look to her as a mother/parent figure. Yet Molly presumed that it was her right to act in loco parentis to the point of trying to drive Sirius away emotionally, if not physically.

[G. Novella]

Perhaps because I was raised in a fairly traditional household, but at the end of the day, Molly was still Fleur's mother-in-law, and that alone demands a certain level of respect that Fleur wasn't giving. I won't say Molly's perfect, heck no, but fact is, Fleur wasn't perfect either. And there is a huge difference to kissing someone's ass and showing respect, and blatantly insulting their house of almost what, twenty-five years is no where near respectful. By respect, I mean general politeness and offering to help around the house a bit and attempting to get along with your mother-in-law.

My own mum and grnadmum had issues beyond compare. Like, my grandmother always 'forgot' my mother's name and called her by the maid's name instead, and in return, my mother would argue with her on everything. They make Molly and Fleur seem tame, but my mother always made sure to give my grandmother the respect she was due, and never insulted her home or her life-style. Women like Molly don't take kindly to that.

And so what if Hermione and Ginny are giving her a hard time? At the end of the day, she's not marrying their son. Hell, Hermione doesn't even matter, and Ginny has zero say in the entire issue besides being invited for being a bridesmaid.

And where the hell did I say Molly was a saint? You are twisting my words and not reading them properly.

I'm saying that Molly was never as bad as you make her out to be, and that it's possible she changed her views outside of Horcrux influence. She didn't see Sirius as taking her place, she saw Sirius as encouraging negative qualities and that's because she saw him at his worst. She wasn't driving Sirius away, she was trying to wade back in. Harry ignores everyone else when he's with Sirius, And Molly obviously felt bad about it. She saw Sirius at his worst, and tell me, if you see anyone, drunk, grouchy, depressed, and generally itching to fight, whatever their good qualities they've shown such as generosity (most likely the only one), are you going to hand him a child? And remember, Molly never saw the responsible Sirius.

Yes, Molly is overbearing, but she had SEVEN children, and spent her ENTIRE life raising them. From the moment got married, mothering people is all she knew. And any mother is controlling, particularly the more children you have because it gets harder to manage. As for judgemental, she judges from what she sees, and while she isn't always right, and can assume things, that's human. And Harry did think of her as something akin to a mother. In DH he tried ro convey that feeling to her in his hug on his birthday. While he may not call her mommy or look to her for advice, he liked that she cared for him by mending his socks and making his favorite food.

Molly was WRONG in what she said to Sirius and intrying to force her right as parent onto Harry, but she wasn't entirely wrong about the fact that until Sirius showed up, who did Harry have, the Dursleys? Dumbledore? She and Arthur were the closest figures to real parents that Harry had. And Molly had no idea just how developed Sirius's relation with Harry was. Molly is not the type of woman to push away a parental figure for anyone, it just so happens that she never saw Sirius acting like a parent. So while she was WRONG to make a quick judgement, did she have anything else to go by?

[basketsarah120]

Not all mothers are controlling, my mother wasn't. And my mom isn't overbearing like Molly. My mom had almost as many kids as Molly. She had five. I mean I even got to pick what high school I wanted to go to. Mom didn't discourage me on what college I wanted to go to or even what my major is like some mom's I know. My mom trusted me, and she didn't force decisions on me. And I got to go outside, and go to the movies alone, while some of my friends couldn't do that.

[sherza]

Jul 20, 2012 20:03:23 GMT -5 G. Novella said:

Perhaps because I was raised in a fairly traditional household, but at the end of the day, Molly was still Fleur's mother-in-law, and that alone demands a certain level of respect that Fleur wasn't giving. By respect, I mean general politeness and offering to help around the house a bit and attempting to get along with your mother-in-law.

Ok, right there I see half our problem. *snerk*. As far as I am concerned, respect is EARNED, not given, no matter who's involved. If someone treats me like shit, I am not going to treat them with respect. It's just the way I am, and I've never understood why people seem to think they have to (forgive the crudity) roll over and take it up the butt because it's the 'respectful' thing to do. My own mother and I go 'round and 'round on this one, because she was raised the way you were, and bends over backwards for her father, who treats her like crap, and I'd have long since told the old man to fend for himself.

And while Fleur may not have the personality/been raised the way I was, we have to take into account two things. 1) She's French (for whatever that's worth, I have NO idea how French children are raised) and 2) Part Veela. Which, again, is going to affect things.

She's got people in the house constantly treating her like crap, and from the looks of things, I think she developed a 'rude ice princess' facade to keep assholes and droolers at bay ... and with Molly, Ginny, and Hermione harassing her, I think she retreated behind that facade because she didn't know how the heck else to handle the situation at the time.

And so what if Hermione and Ginny are giving her a hard time? At the end of the day, she's not marrying their son. Hell, Hermione doesn't even matter, and Ginny has zero say in the entire issue besides being invited for being a bridesmaid.

But they are still harassing the hell out of her, adding to the stress she's under. It can't be separated from the issues with Molly because it's happening at the same time, in the same house.

[princedice1]

Molly in my opinion was the resident A-Hole of the Harry Potter book series.