Bashing

[Kitty279]

Jul 15, 2012 17:00:39 GMT -5 misschsparkle said:

Have you by chance read the third book? Then you will notice Harry's appalling treatment of Hermione over a broom!!! No one ever remembers this but he treated her like crap when all she was doing was protecting him AND she was right about who sent the broom. When Ron has that big argument about Scabbers, Harry supports Ron, not Hermione. He doesn't bother to comfort her or hang out with her, just sticks with Ron. So, while Harry doesn't tend to say nasty things, he can easily do nasty things.

So you think it is ok that Hermione didn't first try to explain herself to Harry, but went behind his back? I'd be angry about such a betrayal as well. (And she didn't really learn her lesson, doing the same about the interview in OotP).
As for Scabbers, it may be natural for cats to hunt rats, but Hermione never did anything to keep her cat from it, either, despite knowing that it hurts her friend. She even brought Crookshanks into the boy's dormitory, which was completely unnecessary and just reinforced that she didn't care one bit that her pet was trying to eat her best friend's pet. If Crookshanks had been mine, I'd at least tried to keep them apart as much as possible, not dragged him into Scabber's vicinity every chance I got!

As for Molly, she is controlling but with such a large number of boys, she has to be. It does go overboard but would you honestly be happy if your child went off on a dangerous mission? With no backup and no contact? Ron might have been of age but not everyone is ready once they hit eighteen or seventeen. Heck, most people struggle going to Uni, never mind a dangerous mission.

So she needs to decide over the hairstyle, clothes, girlfriends of her oldest sons as well because Bill and Charlie are still not old enough to have their own opinion?

As for controlling Sirius's house, well someone had to. Sirius wasn't making any effort to make it a home, he preferred to sulk. She's the one who got it cleaned up and made everyone meals, I think she has a right to be a little annoyed at Sirius. And yes, he's Harry's godfather but where was he for most of Harry's life? In prison for being completely reckless and not telling anyone about Peter. I do love Sirius but Molly made fair points about him.

And where was Molly? Two or so weeks in CoS, a night in PoA, a few days in GoF - yeah, much more than Harry's first 15 months. And it was Sirius who kept in contact, Molly never bothered. Besides, as I read the book, Sirius didn't sulk from the start, that came only later.
As for Peter, I can understand that Sirius was out of his mind, and as Dumbledore had already sent Hagrid to take his godson away, regardless of who was guardian, (and we know Hagrid would do what Dumbledore says no matter how wrong) I can understand that he then tried to catch the traitor. At least then he'd have had proof for his story. We all know how easily the wizards believe what they want to, and don't ask for proof first.

There were times when he acted like Harry was like James, he even told Harry off once for not acting like James. Molly was there for Harry, she might not have given him an expensive broom or something like that but she freely gave him love. Something he badly needed. It was thanks to her that Harry found it easily to accept Sirius because she showed him what a real family was like. She wasn't his mother but she was a damn sight more of a mother than Petunia was.

While I agree about Petunia and that Molly was more loving than her, what annoyed me (and obviously Harry) was how she treats all the teenagers as five-year-olds. Sirius at least treated Harry according to his age. And I always got the feeling that she thought she could heal mental traumas with food. She never made any attempt to talk Harry through his experiences. Harry trusted Sirius more than her in that regard, because he took him seriously and didn't tell him he's too young to worry about a nutter being after his life.

[kumainpink]

Wow...Kitty you're on the war path!

[Kitty279]

Just pointing out that you can see some things a bit different But you know already that I belong to that minority who don't think Molly or Dumbledore are God and infallible and don't hesitate to call them out on their flaws.

[basketsarah120]

I agree with everything Kitty said

[kumainpink]

Likewise! She and Shezra are some of the best debaters I've seen on this site. I can debate when I want to, but I'm not great at it. lol

[Kitty279]

Thanks, Kuma, you make me blush! But please, don't sell yourself short. You are doing just fine, too!

[kumainpink]

You're welcome, Kitty-chan! *grins* And nah, I'm more of an agreeable person... not fond of a lot of fighting... and I'm a slow writer.

[basketsarah120]

Lol. Kitty is a good debater, but we only have a few disagreements on minor opinions.

[sherza]

Awww, blush! Thanks for the compliment, Kuma.

Clearly, I agree with Kitty on this matter, and she's pointed out some of the problems I have with Molly and her overcontrolling and rudeness.

Basically, Sirius wasn't perfect. I have never pretended he was. I, in fact, would dearly love to konk the idiot over the head for the Whomping Willow incident, because that took some rather epic stupidity to pull off. But he made it damn clear that he loved Harry dearly and was willing to do pretty much anything he had to do to help. I mean, for god's sake, he was willing to live in a cave and eat RATS in order to be near Harry fourth year. That's some serious-ass dedication there. And it pissed me off to no end to see Molly basically saying she was the only one ever who had any concern whatsoever for Harry. Because it was patently untrue.

[basketsarah120]

I know Sirius isn't perfect. And yet he's my favorite character in the whole series. I've realized for the most part I like some of the minor characters more in series.

[kumainpink]

You're welcome, Shez!

*sighs* It seems like the good characters get the short end of the stick, do they not?

[sherza]

Jul 16, 2012 1:02:40 GMT -5 basketsarah120 said:

I know Sirius isn't perfect. And yet he's my favorite character in the whole series. I've realized for the most part I like some of the minor characters more in series.

He's my second favorite. Behind Severus, ironically enough. Mostly because he DOES go so far beyond anything rationally required to help Harry. I mean, holy shit. Escaping Azkaban to hunt Pettigrew down because the bastard was at Hogwarts with Harry, and therefore a danger to Harry. Living in a cave for a year, and in Grimmauld Place, which he hated, to be near his godson. Don't tell me he had nowhere else to go. He could have gone straight back to wherever he'd gone to immediately after Third Year once the TriWiz was over. He wasn't obligated to stick around, for any reason. But he did, and the *entire* reason was Harry, or I'll eat my hat.

He was also, as has been mentioned, pretty much the only adult that treated Harry as mentally competent and mature enough to be vouchsafed information vital to his survival. So yeah, despite wanting to conk him over the head, I love the idiot. *grin*

Edited to add: And what did Molly do for Harry? Feed him, ignore any and all signs of abuse, keep him ignorant and treat him like he was a particularly incompetent five year old. But she was all Harry had. *stalks off grumbling highly uncomplimentary things*

[Ayrine Sun]

The problem with bashing is that you don't see half the character. I mean everybody has flaws, but most of them have also good points, Bashing dehumanizes the character as much as idealization do.
Of course critique is good, and discussing people flaws and calling them on them can be beneficial, but it's important too, IMHO, to see their qualities. It's one of the reason I stepped up in defence of Dumbledore (which I've never done before), some posts made him look like a lunatic that was making decision using a Magic 8 Ball. I mean yeah, he took terrible decisions and made mistakes and for some of the horrible things happened could be avoided but there is a reasoning behind his actions, even if some don't approve. Did he see all the problems his decisions would create? no, maybe yes. Did he underestimate them? yes. Should he be called out for them? yes. But he also took good decisions and did good things.

As for Ron I see it simply like that, comparing the number of times he left and betrayed Harry to the times he stood for Harry, helped him and all the thing he gave him: 2/100000. Yeah, that a good friend in my book.

[sherza]

Jul 16, 2012 3:46:24 GMT -5 @Ayrine Sun said:

The problem with bashing is that you don't see half the character. I mean everybody has flaws, but most of them have also good points, Bashing dehumanizes the character as much as idealization do.
Of course critique is good, and discussing people flaws and calling them on them can be beneficial, but it's important too, IMHO, to see their qualities. It's one of the reason I stepped up in defence of Dumbledore (which I've never done before), some posts made him look like a lunatic that was making decision using a Magic 8 Ball. I mean yeah, he took terrible decisions and made mistakes and for some of the horrible things happened could be avoided but there is a reasoning behind his actions, even if some don't approve. Did he see all the problems his decisions would create? no, maybe yes. Did he underestimate them? yes. Should he be called out for them? yes. But he also took good decisions and did good things.

As for Ron I see it simply like that, comparing the number of times he left and betrayed Harry to the times he stood for Harry, helped him and all the thing he gave him: 2/100000. Yeah, that a good friend in my book.

Well, I don't actually bash Ron or Molly. I just get aggravated at people that seem to think they're both without faults. Because they're not.

The only characters I bash, unashamedly, are Dumbledore, Fudge, and Umbridge.

And I think EVERYONE bashes Umbridge. Because *damn*.

And about 90% of the fanbase at least thinks Fudge is an incompetent moron, if they don't outright bash the idiot.

Dumbledore ... well, I think I've made it clear why I don't like him and why I bash him. I honestly can't see anything truly good/redeemable about the old goat.

[Ayrine Sun]

Jul 16, 2012 1:07:58 GMT -5 sherza said:

Edited to add: And what did Molly do for Harry? Feed him, ignore any and all signs of abuse, keep him ignorant and treat him like he was a particularly incompetent five year old. But she was all Harry had. *stalks off grumbling highly uncomplimentary things*

Loved him, treated him as a decent person, gave him a place in her home.

See Abuse? When the Author of the story deny Abuse. Still, I wish someone can explain to me how one character can see abuse when the Author, herself, is in denial and is adamant that in her world, Harry wasn't abused but just neglected. For me, it's impossible.

[kumainpink]

Because the implications are there, in black and white. Rowling just didn't do the proper research on the subject matter, so she insists that Harry is only mistreated. It's not just abuse that is there, but obvious neglect.

[G. Novella]

No but Sun is saying that if JKR wants to deny any signs of Harry being abused, then how is her character of Molly going to see the signs in canon? Molly does note on his malnutrition, sees his hand-me downs, complains about the Dursleys, so I suspect she had an idea, but it takes fanfiction to get her to bring it to light.

[kumainpink]

Oh...my bad. And you make a good point, Gnovella.

[sherza]

Jul 16, 2012 3:54:05 GMT -5 @Ayrine Sun said:

Loved him, treated him as a decent person, gave him a place in her home.

See Abuse? When the Author of the story deny Abuse. Still, I wish someone can explain to me how one character can see abuse when the Author, herself, is in denial and is adamant that in her world, Harry wasn't abused but just neglected. For me, it's impossible.

No, actually, she didn't treat Harry as a decent person. She treated him as an incompetent 5-year-old. She denied him access to critical, need-to-know information, attempted to control what he did and where he went despite NOT being his official guardian and thus able to make those kinds of decisions for his welfare. Despite him being told to do something by DUMBLEDORE, and her knowing this, and her being so far up Dumbledore's ass it's not funny, she decided she knew better and tried to keep him, Hermione and Ron from getting their plans worked out summer before 7th year. When Hermione and Ron were both of-age adults and Harry was only weeks from that designation himself.

Her actions fifth year just ... piss me off. Massively. Because she damn well *knew* at least some of what Harry had dealt with ... she might not have known all the details, but she damn well knew at least the outline of the Chamber incident at the very least, and possibly some of the Stone incident. And she was RIGHT THERE when Harry made it through the TriWiz, and the events after the Third Task ... yet she treated Harry like he was five, incapable of understanding or comprehending, needing to be protected and sheltered and coddled and ... gah. *smacks her* It's annoying.

Also, disregarding any issues JKR has with the subject as the source of the problem (mostly because I refuse to accept 'the author's fucked up' as a reason for anything a character does in ANY book, not just JKR's stuff) the twins/Ron told her straight out that Harry had been starved, and she never so much as blinked. While, yes, it was the twins and Ron saying it, it merited at least a quick double-check, because that's kind of a serious statement.

[G. Novella]

Yeah, and it's a really depressing point too

[Ayrine Sun]

Jul 16, 2012 3:51:19 GMT -5 sherza said:

The only characters I bash, unashamedly, are Dumbledore, Fudge, and Umbridge.

And I think EVERYONE bashes Umbridge. Because *damn*.

And about 90% of the fanbase at least thinks Fudge is an incompetent moron, if they don't outright bash the idiot.

Dumbledore ... well, I think I've made it clear why I don't like him and why I bash him. I honestly can't see anything truly good/redeemable about the old goat.

Even umbridge has qualities, she is ambitious, determine, loyal, yeah she a is also a horrible monster that condemned hundred innocent to death. But I rather see her as whole than just a fragment of her, even if the most important.

Fudge while isn't good for responsibility, because honestly he can't shoulder it, and act as a moron. He must have been good in previous job, but to be honest we don't see much of him, then I can't speak about his Qualities.

Dumbledore, the point of the discord. lol, Love the old goat, love his faith in 'love' and his courage, love him also for his flaws, the idiot really think that he should shoulder all the responsibility and he rarely delegate. Oh yeah, he probably love to do it too. I will always remember when he say the human have knack for loving the things that hurt them the most. But everybody has his opinion and I respect that.

[Ayrine Sun]

Jul 16, 2012 4:06:31 GMT -5 sherza said:

No, actually, she didn't treat Harry as a decent person. She treated him as an incompetent 5-year-old. She denied him access to critical, need-to-know information, attempted to control what he did and where he went despite NOT being his official guardian and thus able to make those kinds of decisions for his welfare. Despite him being told to do something by DUMBLEDORE, and her knowing this, and her being so far up Dumbledore's ass it's not funny, she decided she knew better and tried to keep him, Hermione and Ron from getting their plans worked out summer before 7th year. When Hermione and Ron were both of-age adults and Harry was only weeks from that designation himself.

Her actions fifth year just ... piss me off. Massively. Because she damn well *knew* at least some of what Harry had dealt with ... she might not have known all the details, but she damn well knew at least the outline of the Chamber incident at the very least, and possibly some of the Stone incident. And she was RIGHT THERE when Harry made it through the TriWiz, and the events after the Third Task ... yet she treated Harry like he was five, incapable of understanding or comprehending, needing to be protected and sheltered and coddled and ... gah. *smacks her* It's annoying.

Also, disregarding any issues JKR has with the subject as the source of the problem (mostly because I refuse to accept 'the author's fucked up' as a reason for anything a character does in ANY book, not just JKR's stuff) the twins/Ron told her straight out that Harry had been starved, and she never so much as blinked. While, yes, it was the twins and Ron saying it, it merited at least a quick double-check, because that's kind of a serious statement.

Scherza, the fact she did all that don't deny that she loved him and gave him his first real foyer.
Yes she did bad things, you said it all, I agree, but she did good too.

But also you are aware that you are asking for the impossible then? Molly is a character. a character can only know what the author know. And even if she had investigated, it wouldn't be considered abuse, just neglect and brushed up, because JK prevents any conclusion like that.

Yes she should have listened, never said the contrary, and McGonagal should have believed Harry in 1st year. Yes adult tend to discard people children opinion.

[sherza]

Jul 16, 2012 4:22:31 GMT -5 @Ayrine Sun said:

Scherza, the fact she did all that don't deny that she loved him and gave him his first real foyer.

Yes she did bad things, you said it all, I agree, but she did good too.

But also you are aware that you are asking for the impossible then? Molly is a character. a character can only know what the author know. And even if she had investigated, it wouldn't be considered abuse, just neglect and brushed up, because JK prevents any conclusion like that.

Yes she should have listened, never said the contrary, and McGonagal should have believed Harry in 1st year. Yes adult tend to discard people children opinion.

I never said she didn't do any good. Just that it annoys me when people think she has no faults.

And you and I go about analyzing things differently. I look at characters in a book as real people committing real actions, not as words on paper put there by some other person, and ergo, ARE that person to whatever extent (limitations and all). I don't look at or accept 'the author' as an explanation for any of the character's actions.

Not saying my way's right, but that's how I look at things when I read.

[Ayrine Sun]

Jul 16, 2012 4:30:20 GMT -5 sherza said:

I never said she didn't do any good. Just that it annoys me when people think she has no faults.

And you and I go about analyzing things differently. I look at characters in a book as real people committing real actions, not as words on paper put there by some other person, and ergo, ARE that person to whatever extent (limitations and all). I don't look at or accept 'the author' as an explanation for any of the character's actions.

Not saying my way's right, but that's how I look at things when I read.

Well, OK, then.

We do analyse things differently. For me it's like the Houseelves. I mean for me, it's like : one can be upset with Kreacher for what he did to Sirius, but not forget that he isn't totally free to believe what he wants or have the most and best objective opinion. OK, weird comparison. lol

[Nahara46]

If anyone's using the excuse that a character can't do/know what the author doesn't know- Then that should be put to Harry being put on a doorstep. I, for the most part, suspect that JKR just didn't think when she wrote that about all the bad things that could happen to a baby. I, personally, Like the think that McGonagall stayed with him until morning, as the book never specifically mentioned her leaving.

[ykickamoocow]

Jul 16, 2012 1:00:31 GMT -5 sherza said:

Awww, blush! Thanks for the compliment, Kuma.

Clearly, I agree with Kitty on this matter, and she's pointed out some of the problems I have with Molly and her overcontrolling and rudeness.

Basically, Sirius wasn't perfect. I have never pretended he was. I, in fact, would dearly love to konk the idiot over the head for the Whomping Willow incident, because that took some rather epic stupidity to pull off. But he made it damn clear that he loved Harry dearly and was willing to do pretty much anything he had to do to help. I mean, for god's sake, he was willing to live in a cave and eat RATS in order to be near Harry fourth year. That's some serious-ass dedication there. And it pissed me off to no end to see Molly basically saying she was the only one ever who had any concern whatsoever for Harry. Because it was patently untrue.

No doubt Sirius loved Harry but i don't think he would have made a suitable parent.

[kumainpink]

He would have made a much better one than Molly, or anyone else that was available. Hell, we know that he would have been far more suitable than the Dursleys.

[ykickamoocow]

Jul 16, 2012 6:57:32 GMT -5 kumainpink said:

He would have made a much better one than Molly, or anyone else that was available. Hell, we know that he would have been far more suitable than the Dursleys.

That is probably true but i still stand by my statement. To me Sirius was looking for Harry to be his best mate while Harry wanted a father.

[kumainpink]

And who would have been better suited, in your opinion?

[ykickamoocow]

Jul 16, 2012 7:01:08 GMT -5 kumainpink said:

And who would have been better suited, in your opinion?

Bill