Bashing

[Nahara46]

Could his father have been effected as well though?

[Kitty279]

Jul 18, 2012 0:51:31 GMT -5 kumainpink said:

I think Walburga ordered Kreacher to do unkind, maybe even harmful things to Sirius.

Me too. Seeing what Sirius said in GoF about judging people by how they treat their servants (can't remember the exact wording), I don't think the simple fact that the elf belonged to his parents would have been enough for that enmity. And I can see Walburga encouraging the insulting. That woman has the language of a street rat, not a noble pureblood herself, after all.

[sherza]

Jul 18, 2012 0:52:04 GMT -5 Nahara46 said:

If horcrux' have such an influence on people and their lives. I wonder if having lived and been raised in a house with the Diary in it, may have effected Draco at all.

Entirely possible, though in that case, the place where the diary was hidden was well-warded, so it *might* not have been as much of a factor. The locket was just sitting out there where anyone could (and did!) touch it or walk past it.

[kumainpink]

It could have, though...maybe just a smidge.

[Nahara46]

That is a good point Sherza, but where did it mention that the Diary's location was well-warded? I don't remember that.

[Kitty279]

It was probably in that secret room below the floor that was mentioned in CoS. I'd expect Lucy to conceal it not only with a carpet over the opening, but magically as well, as there was probably a lot of dark stuff, and if the house was searched, then it should not be so easily discovered for radiating dark magic. So it stands to reason that it was warded. Besides, he'd not want the stuff to influence everyone in the house, I'd think.

[sherza]

Jul 18, 2012 0:55:55 GMT -5 Nahara46 said:

That is a good point Sherza, but where did it mention that the Diary's location was well-warded? I don't remember that.

Draco said that the hidey-hole under the dining room (which is where the diary was probably kept) was well-hidden. I take that to mean that it was specifically warded to keep it from being noticed, which among other things, would mean a ward that cancelled out or camoflaged the Dark magic radiating from the place, which would have, in turn, at least thinned out the diary's effects.

[viralic1]

On the topic of Sirius believing Remus the traitor, I doubt it because of Sirius' comment during the initial confrontation in the shreaking shack

"You'd been passing information along to Voldemort for a year!"

How did he know that? He certainly didn't learn it in Azkaban, where he was kept in maximum security. My guess is he had a suspicion about Peter, but before he could bring the matter up, the attack on Godric's Hallow happened, and then he was shipped to Azkaban. It's possible he didn't trust Remus not too take it straight to Dumbledore, who would sit on his ass with the information and do nothing until it was too late.

Sirius always struck me as an action oriented person, so I can't see him and Dumbledore agreeing on many things in terms of what to do with Death Eaters, especially since he grew up with them and he knows first hand how unredeemable they are, yet Dumbledore is willing to risk an entire school full of children, just to try and save one person. And yes, he made a decision that Malfoy's future was of more importance than the lives and safety of the other children in his school.

[basketsarah120]

If Draco had seceded in killing one of the students. Dumbledore probably would be considered and accomplice.

[sherza]

Jul 18, 2012 1:01:52 GMT -5 viralic1 said:

How did he know that? He certainly didn't learn it in Azkaban, where he was kept in maximum security.

Actually, he probably did ... he was in max security with all the nutball DE's. Including Bellatrix. I'm *quite* sure he learned a lot of interesting tidbits before they all went barking mad thanks to the dementors.

[Kitty279]

Good point, Viralic. And I agree with the second part wholehartedly. The way Dumbledore put Draco above the rest of the school even after two other students nearly died was inexcusable and makes it so hard to see how he was the good guy so many insist in seeing in him.

[viralic1]

Jul 18, 2012 1:04:04 GMT -5 sherza said:

Jul 18, 2012 1:01:52 GMT -5 viralic1 said:

How did he know that? He certainly didn't learn it in Azkaban, where he was kept in maximum security.

Actually, he probably did ... he was in max security with all the nutball DE's. Including Bellatrix. I'm *quite* sure he learned a lot of interesting tidbits before they all went barking mad thanks to the dementors.

Maybe, but I doubt it. Why would he care about what they were babbling, and since they knew he wasn't a traitor, they wouldn't have confided in him. You're assuming maximum security prisoners are kept right next to each other, with thin enough walls to hear through. I always thought that the information he did know for sure in the shreaking shack he inferred.

[G. Novella]

They assumed there was a traitor already though. Sirius thought it was Remus until Peter betrayed the Potters, and Remus always thought it was Sirius until Peter was alive. It was why Sirius switched with Peter, so the traitor would put Voldemort on his trail and leave the real Secret Keeper alone.

[sherza]

Jul 18, 2012 1:07:28 GMT -5 viralic1 said:

Jul 18, 2012 1:04:04 GMT -5 sherza said:

Actually, he probably did ... he was in max security with all the nutball DE's. Including Bellatrix. I'm *quite* sure he learned a lot of interesting tidbits before they all went barking mad thanks to the dementors.

Maybe, but I doubt it. Why would he care about what they were babbling, and since they knew he wasn't a traitor, they wouldn't have confided in him. You're assuming maximum security prisoners are kept right next to each other, with thin enough walls to hear through. I always thought that the information he did know for sure in the shreaking shack he inferred.

Sirius made it plain that he *could* hear Bellatrix yelling. And who said they were confiding in him? They were *taunting* him. Think about it. He's a good guy. Who got thrown in Azkaban for a crime he didn't commit. The DE's in there were probably laughing their collective *asses* off when they could still laugh.

I mean, seriously. Azkaban is not like the Real World's maximum security penitentiaries. It's a collection of rock cells with bars for doors and windows (this gleaned from comments Sirius made as well). There's not exactly any soundproofing, or anything like the isolation protocols that jails have for high-security-risk inmates.

[Kouji-Wolf]

I have to say that reading this thread really brings things to light that I had never thought about before, though I still like Dumbledore and Molly and don't see the point to fics that bash characters when everyone has flaws and nobody is perfect. I'll have to think about some of this when I'm working on my RtB story...

[Kitty279]

It's really fascinating how discussing a book you have read countless times for over a decade can give you new ideas and connections you didn't expect, isn't it?

[kumainpink]

That's one of the reasons I love this site! I can't tell you how much my head cannon has grown since I started chatting with you guys!

[Kouji-Wolf]

The most interesting thing I saw in this thread was the horcrux in Sirius' house theory. It explains a lot, actually. It'll be interesting when Pottermore gets expanded more to see if JKR adds anything about horcruxes.

At some point, someone asked why Sirius didn't ask Remus to help him track down Peter after Hagrid took Harry, right? Well, what if that night had been a full moon? Or within a few days from one? Sirius would have known that Remus would be exhausted if that was the case, even if his faith in the werewolf hadn't been shaken for some reason. For all we know, Peter had been feeding them fake rumors about the other to make them mistrust each other.

Just I thought I felt I needed to mention.

[basketsarah120]

I've looked up the year online before. October 31st, 1981 had no full moon near those days.

[Kitty279]

Doesn't mean that JKR checked herself, though. I think it was said somewhere that she got the days of the week for the one year wrong, too, though I can't remember the details.

[basketsarah120]

True. She should've done research. I looked it up because I was interested if Moony would've been out and about.

[Kitty279]

She's probably explain the mistake away with "it's magic"

[basketsarah120]

*sniggers* Hmm.. I think another JKR and Editor talk is coming on.

[kumainpink]

Oh! Wait for me! *gets a bowl of popcorn, a chair and a bottle of soda*

[basketsarah120]

Lol. I'll try to think of something.

[Kouji-Wolf]

Editors can't catch everything and those mistakes can actually help accurately determine the edition of the book, as new editions generally get fixed.

Edited to fix spelling.

[Kitty279]

The HP editors let a lot of mistakes slip, and some rather obvious ones at that.

In the German edition, they fixed mistakes, only to make new ones

[Ayrine Sun]

Wasn't it Snape the one who informed Dumbledore that one of James' friends was a traitor and he was passing information to Voldemort, and Dumbledore informed the Potter, and that's why he proposed to be their Keeper but James REFUSED and told him 'I trust Sirius'.

Let not forget the even Genius-Dumbledore is not Omniscient, He only knew that one of the 3 friends was a traitor.
1/ the Dark Arts-loving's family son, but who had disown them and fought against them.
2/ the lycanthrope who never showed any signs of cruelty or malice, he was always the one disapproving (even if silently) when the others went too far.
3/ the light-siding family son, who wasn't that talented or clever but entered the Order to help, and who you thought as too weak to be approached by Voldemort.

Plus if Sirius, James and Remus couldn't suspect Peter to be a traitor (they know him the best, because they really shared everything for 7 years), how could anyone suspect him, even more they didn't bother inform Dumbledore about the keeper switch, that was a really reckless move.

Oh and if Sirius had suspected Peter, he would have been the keeper instead. no?


As for Dumbledore choosing Draco above all other students?

I don't think so, his plan was never about Draco, he never thought that Draco would the make DE enter Hogwarts, he was dying and chose Severus to EXECUTE him so he would become THE MOST TRUSTED DE and therefore become Headmaster of Hogwarts and PROTECT all students and HELP Harry and GIVE him the sward.

And remember it's the same society that think if the injury can heal, it's OK to brush it off. If he had expelled Draco, Voldemort would have killed him, so that why he just put Snape on his case and monitor him.

Oh, something else, in DH Snape chides Dumbledore *giggles* because he lost time before coming to him and that's probably cost him his life or few years at last. It amazes me how his distrust was really his down fall, I mean if only he had asked for help immediately,a little patronus and Snape apparates in less than 3 minutes, but no he had to hide his traces in the shake, destroy the ring, hide it and then only asked for help *head shake*

The horcrux is a good catch, I wonder if it was able to spread his malfeasance to the house itself? making of it a horror movies house, just imagine it infusing in Sirius's Mom portrait. *shudders*

OK. the renting is finished.

[Kitty279]

Personally, I can only remember that they knew that there was a traitor, but not who, and even less that it might be one of these three.

Frankly, I'd have sacrificed Draco, who already had nearly killed two other students (and it was through no merit of Draco himself that Katie and Ron didn't die! They were saved because some people acted fast, not thanks to magic!) to protect the rest of the school. Dumbledore knew obviously about Draco's task, but thought it perfectly reasonable to allow him further free rein even after two others nearly paid the price. Endangering himself is one thing, but endangering other people is another matter altogether. The man was responsible for a school full of children, but all they were to him is obviously to further his political games. That's inexcusable. What if Ron had died? Or Katie? Do you think it ok to allow Draco to try once again and kill more innocents in the process? Who's more important, a Death Eater spawn or a few 100 children? Besides, if Dumbledore didn't think Draco would bring Death Eaters into the school, why did he leave that guard at the school for that night?

[Ayrine Sun]

Jul 18, 2012 6:12:26 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Personally, I can only remember that they knew that there was a traitor, but not who, and even less that it might be one of these three.

Frankly, I'd have sacrificed Draco, who already had nearly killed two other students (and it was through no merit of Draco himself that Katie and Ron didn't die! They were saved because some people acted fast, not thanks to magic!) to protect the rest of the school. Dumbledore knew obviously about Draco's task, but thought it perfectly reasonable to allow him further free rein even after two others nearly paid the price. Endangering himself is one thing, but endangering other people is another matter altogether. The man was responsible for a school full of children, but all they were to him is obviously to further his political games. That's inexcusable. What if Ron had died? Or Katie? Do you think it ok to allow Draco to try once again and kill more innocents in the process? Who's more important, a Death Eater spawn or a few 100 children? Besides, if Dumbledore didn't think Draco would bring Death Eaters into the school, why did he leave that guard at the school for that night?

My book (French edition) says that Dumbledore was persuaded that one of James' "close relation" meaning I think, friend was passing information (McGonagall to Fudge, Rosmerta, Hagrid and Flitwick).

I will rephrase it, he thought that Draco couldn't make the DE enter Hogwarts because he put the guards and a maximum security. He thought that in the end of the year, Draco would give up and Snape would kill him.

Kitty, I-for one-would have closed the school in 1992 until I capture the monster, I would have chased the Giant Spider and centaurs from the forest that is in a SCHOOL, interdict the USE OF bludgers in Quidditch, sued their as* for even mentioning the TriWizard-Sadistic-Tournament, or rather make the judges face the tasks, they would see how entertaining is affronting dragons and skrewts. because their age limit is stupid, at 17 I was a kid.
Sadly, even in 1945, they waited until Myrtle died to take the decision to close the school.

It's the whole society that underestimate those dangers, and Dumbledore is one of them. They are like as long as they are alive and not completely disabled, it's forgiveable, so as long as Draco doesn't KILL anyone, he can still stay because if not he will be KILLED. It's the same with Sirius, Remus and James and the Whomping willow's incident. Sirius nearly ended 2 lives that night, but he wasn't punished or expelled.
They inherited it from their parents and will inherit it to their children.