Bashing

[Ayrine Sun]

Yeah they are really dependant of magic. Anything resembling to science is foreign to them, must be why they lack so much logic or common sense.

I can't see healer doing muggle psychological therapy, they probably only use magic to restore brain's anatomical and physiological functions.

[misschsparkle]

Jul 17, 2012 4:34:21 GMT -5 @Ayrine Sun said:

I am just stating facts. you know. I am not angry at Molly for what she did. Every person did what he/she did FOR Harry not AGAINST him. But I didn't appreciate that she told to Sirius who was at 2" from depression that he is useless, incompetent and he should just shut up.

The problems with Molly is she can't compromise, Sirius didn't say 'Harry you will Kill Voldemort or be killed, now you know, you can go to bed', he just gave him some scarps of informations that helped him not go totally insane. Harry needed those informations.

Sirius is not totally ready to take care of Harry, but he knows him and knows what is going in Harry's mind.

All in all, the fact that you think you are right doesn't give you the right to hurt others, and Molly should be called out for it.

As for the conspiracy, lol, it was fun to imagine it, and I said I don't think they had malicious intentions, it's Dumbledore way of actions, when he can't trust others with important informations, they can't choose the best decisions for themselves and he has to do it for them. It's horrible and it backs fire, but well, it's the only way Dumbledore he knows and the fact that he is nearly venerated as a half god by those people doesn't help him think better of it. He really need a therapy.

Molly might not be good at compromising but she is good at accepting situations once they've happened and supporting them to the fullest. When she accepted Fluer, she put all her energy into ensuring Bill and Fluer had the best wedding they could do.

Also, Sirius had loads of opportunities to take Harry aside and tell him what was happening, if he really wanted to. He wouldn't have cared about the consequences if he honestly thought Harry had to have the information. But he didn't and clearly, no one else thought Harry should know either. Not Remus, not Arthur, not Mad Eye, it wasn't just Molly. And why would Dumbledore rat Sirius out? Apart from destroying Harry's trust in him and losing an ally, Dumbledore could have been arrested for aiding a convict so that doesn't make sense.

Harry had been through loads, which was why Molly wanted to look after him. Just because he has been through loads, doesn't mean he should be kicked out on the street and told 'get on with it.'

Molly didn't say Sirius was useless or to shut up, she was trying to say he wasn't fit for looking after Harry and making all the decisions regarding him, he wasn't. She said it too bluntly but Sirius was clearly not listening to her so she had to be.

Harry did act like James a lot, except for certain things, how do we know how well Sirius would have treated him if he wasn't a lot like James. When Harry asked about the fifth year incident, Sirius just laughed it off, not getting the same bullying had once happened to harry. And Sirius certainly never said sorry for snarling at Harry, although he had plenty of time to realise his mistake and how it could affect Harry.

[misschsparkle]

Jul 17, 2012 6:54:19 GMT -5 @Ayrine Sun said:

I thought of something, Harry was with the Dursleys from Nov. 1981 to Sept. 1991.
I would be curious how society dealt with child abuse and how proficient they were to recognize it in the late 1980 and early 1990 in England?
I think they only updated their policy about it in the end 1970 and early 1980, the change had started, but maybe it was slow?
JK was a teacher (I think?) before she start writing, it seems that she wasn't formed to recognize abuse, because she is clueless about it.
And how things would be different if Harry was born 20 years later?

If you read newspapers, you see that there are still tons of kids who get abused and nothing happens about it, even cases where their killed. So, I don't think it's a question of her not knowing about it, the point of the first book was he was a neglected orphan who is suddenly thrust into a magical world. Plus, he was allowed to go to school, he wasn't physically abused, he was out and about, people could miss this. Especially if the Dursleys spread stories about them. I think people expect abuse to be a lot more dramatic and obvious but it can be subtle.

I read a biography called 'a boy called it' and even though he was wearing holey clothes, stealing kids lunches, eating frozen school sausages, smelling bad and having bad bruises, it took till he was thirteen for the teachers to finally do something and report it. He'd been showing signs of abuse for at least 6 or something years, they even sent a social worker round but nothing happened until the teachers compiled a report and he was finally taken away.

Sadly, cases like Harry can easily slip through the cracks and that's what happened here. I think JK wanted to show just how extraordinary Harry was, because after all he went through, he still came through as a well rounded, loving person. The story could have been how he was saved from it all but it's interesting to see how he copes with not being saved. Because as I said, many children are never saved and go into adulthood, having survived abuse.

[misschsparkle]

Jul 17, 2012 13:42:17 GMT -5 @Ayrine Sun said:

Yeah they are really dependant of magic. Anything resembling to science is foreign to them, must be why they lack so much logic or common sense.

I can't see healer doing muggle psychological therapy, they probably only use magic to restore brain's anatomical and physiological functions.

That'll be why Snape's challenge was a clever one, it first year. We look at it and wonder, how on earth couldn't they work it out but Wizards really aren't good at common sense. They keep going on and on about how do Muggles manage without magic and yet they obviously do.

Makes you wonder, if Neville's parents had been sent to a Muggle hospital, could they have made even a small difference?

[Nahara46]

I've thought of that Sparkle, what if they'd used muggle therapy and psychology methods? If there's one thing the Wizarding world needs- it's a kick in the direction of Muggle psychology.

[G. Novella]

I don't think so. What happened with Neville's parents seemed more neurological than psychological. I always assumed it was a nerve thing more than a psyche thing, and muggle neurosciences wouldn't be advanced enough to deal with several nerves being fried. And I doubt Augusta would let muggles take scalpels to her son and daughter-in-law's heads.

[Ayrine Sun]

Jul 17, 2012 14:45:20 GMT -5 misschsparkle said:

Molly might not be good at compromising but she is good at accepting situations once they've happened and supporting them to the fullest. When she accepted Fluer, she put all her energy into ensuring Bill and Fluer had the best wedding they could do.

What you mean? I believe Molly and Sirius should have worked together. Not one against the other.

Jul 17, 2012 14:45:20 GMT -5 misschsparkle said:

Also, Sirius had loads of opportunities to take Harry aside and tell him what was happening, if he really wanted to. He wouldn't have cared about the consequences if he honestly thought Harry had to have the information. But he didn't and clearly, no one else thought Harry should know either. Not Remus, not Arthur, not Mad Eye, it wasn't just Molly.

But he did say what he wanted to say, he told him that night, Sirius didn't want to reveal everything, just enough to help ease Harry's mind, so he could understand what was happening rather imagine more terrible things. as for the other members of the order, they kept silent and didn't protest against Sirius, they thought that Harry needed to know at last enough to not die from frustration or burn from anger and tension.

Jul 17, 2012 14:45:20 GMT -5 misschsparkle said:

And why would Dumbledore rat Sirius out? Apart from destroying Harry's trust in him and losing an ally, Dumbledore could have been arrested for aiding a convict so that doesn't make sense.

What? I have no idea of what you are talking about. Dumbledore rating Sirius?

Jul 17, 2012 14:45:20 GMT -5 misschsparkle said:

Harry had been through loads, which was why Molly wanted to look after him. Just because he has been through loads, doesn't mean he should be kicked out on the street and told 'get on with it.'

Never said that.

Jul 17, 2012 14:45:20 GMT -5 misschsparkle said:

Molly didn't say Sirius was useless or to shut up, she was trying to say he wasn't fit for looking after Harry and making all the decisions regarding him, he wasn't. She said it too bluntly but Sirius was clearly not listening to her so she had to be.

Harry did act like James a lot, except for certain things, how do we know how well Sirius would have treated him if he wasn't a lot like James. When Harry asked about the fifth year incident, Sirius just laughed it off, not getting the same bullying had once happened to harry. And Sirius certainly never said sorry for snarling at Harry, although he had plenty of time to realise his mistake and how it could affect Harry.

Never said he was ready to take care of Harry nor that Harry was James, I said he understood Harry mental state and know that his internal burning would led him to do something reckless. And that why he needed some informations and not be completely blinded.

Molly convinced herself that Harry was safe and didn't need to mind adult business. She was wrong about it, and while I agree that he didn't need to know everything, knowing nothing was worst. Molly couldn't comprehend that but Sirius did, regardless of his other issues.

[basketsarah120]

Sirius was ready to take care of Harry. He scolded Harry in GOF and Azkaban matured him. If he wasn't trustworthy James and Lily wouldn't have made him godfather. He was probably good with baby Harry. And Sirius didn't treat Harry like James.

[G. Novella]

But he wasn't under stress. A stressed Sirius wasn't entirely a paternal Sirius.

[Nahara46]

Sirius is like an extremely emotional girl PMSing. He changes so quickly, Harry needs a more constant parental figure. Has anyone considered Remus?

[G. Novella]

Too self-loathing/paranoid. He'd need help otherwise he'd drive himself insane with worry. So neither of the two friends were viable single-parent options.

[Kitty279]

Just getting his name cleared and not being forced to stay in Grimmauld Place 24/7 would have done wonders for Sirius, that and doing something useful beyond housecleaning. Half his problems came from being literally imprisoned there, that much was obvious from the extreme difference between GoF and OotP.

[kumainpink]

Especially because it is implied that he was abused - to some extent at least.

[sherza]

Jul 18, 2012 0:01:22 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Just getting his name cleared and not being forced to stay in Grimmauld Place 24/7 would have done wonders for Sirius, that and doing something useful beyond housecleaning. Half his problems came from being literally imprisoned there, that much was obvious from the extreme difference between GoF and OotP.

Exactly. If Sirius had been able to choose where he lived, and what he did, and who he hung out with (what, you think he LIKED having Snape underfoot all the damn time, or Molly, or, well, most of the Order?) about 50% of his problems would not have existed, because he would not be

1) Imprisoned
2) Imprisoned in a VERY Dark House
3) Imprisoned in a Very Dark House that played host to a very crappy childhood
4) Imprisoned in a Very Dark House that played host to a very crappy childhood and played host to a horcrux (we saw what that damn thing did to the Trio. You think it did *nothing* to the house or the things and people in it? HAH!)

[Nahara46]

Sherza- that Horcux idea is a good point! Though couldn't that be flipped and applied to Molly as well? As to why she was so horrible to Sirius? It was her feeling intensified and made her crabbier and harsher then she otherwise would've been.

[kumainpink]

You know, I think you guys are on to something...

[Kitty279]

Oh, hadn't thought about that yet, but that's a very good point, Sherza! That Horcrux may indeed have made things even worse than they already were. And I can well imagine that Sirius was more suspectible to it, considering his situation, and he was the only one staying there all year round. Another reason why it is so unfair to blame him for being moody.

[viralic1]

I can't see Remus being a good godfather, simply because he is entirely too willing to bend to Dumbledore's will, even if it means going against what his best friend would likely want, and he's too full of self loathing. He was going to leave Tonks and Teddy alone, and no matter how you want to look at it, the fact is he was willing to abandon his wife and child for no good reason.

I've always had a bit of a problem with Remus, simply because it seemed he was entirely too willing to accept Sirius was a traitor. Maybe it's because I'm extremely loyal to my friends, but if someone accused my best friend of murder, then I would defend him until I was shown concrete proof that he was the one who did it. I understand he was under a lot of stress, but he had YEARS to think about it, and he never once tried to look at it from a different angle.

[Nahara46]

We don't know how Remus though of is Vira. Maybe it's just me, but if I had thought my best friend had turned traitor and caused my other best friends death, it would be a bit hard for me to accept that my other best friend was responsible and had framed the first. Remus accepted it so quickly, and easily that I think he'd been mulling over it for years.

[Kitty279]

Indeed, Remus would have bowed to Dumbledore and not fought against Harry being sent to Durskaban and being cut off from the child altogether. He's always too willing to do what Dumbledore tells him out of gratefulness that he was allowed to visit Hogwarts. Sometimes I think that was the main reason - and not his lycanthropy - that he wasn't godfather. Sirius would fight for Harry, no matter against who and what, if he was free. He might have believed Dumbledore at first, but kept an eye on his godson and would have noticed the abuse and acted, IMO.

But you are right about him believing the rubbish about Sirius being the traitor. He knew him for years and how he hated his family for being pureblood supremacists - did it never occur to him that there might be something fishy? Particularly as Sirius never got a trial? I can understand that people who don't really know Sirius would think 'he's a Black, what do you expect', yes, but his closest friends should have known better.

[kumainpink]

And this is all the more reason as to why Dumbledore should have done more - if he's not the manipulative bastard he's made out to be. Dumbledore of all people - supposedly a genius in cannon - should have put two and two together.

[sherza]

Jul 18, 2012 0:30:39 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Oh, hadn't thought about that yet, but that's a very good point, Sherza! That Horcrux may indeed have made things even worse than they already were. And I can well imagine that Sirius was more suspectible to it, considering his situation, and he was the only one staying there all year round. Another reason why it is so unfair to blame him for being moody.

It just sort of hit me, you know? I mean, that freaking thing had been in that house for what, sixteen, seventeen years or so? Maybe more (Regulus snagged it sometime before Harry was born, that's really all we know).

Given how badly it affected the Trio in the short time they were dealing with it, it seems reasonable to assume that there'd be SOME affect to the house, the furniture, and everyone who steps foot in the house.

And yeah, it could be applied to Molly too ... from what we know, she seems to have spent the most time in the house after Sirius (She was there a lot cooking meals etc).

And we know it wasn't removed from the house until sometime after Sirius' death, which means ... yeah.

Makes me feel bad for Kreacher. Poor sod was around that thing all those years! Ouch!

[Nahara46]

Explains some of Kreachers horridness.

[kumainpink]

And his insanity, too!

[Nahara46]

Truer words were never spoken.

[Kitty279]

These discussions really help to make connections that never occured to us before, do they? And seeing that Regulus died in 1979, yes, it was there a long time. Could maybe explain a bit why they were 'waging war on the house', too.

Kreacher ... yeah, he was probably influenced by it, too, together with the crazy portrait. Though I always feel there was more to the Sirius-Kreacher relationship than meets the eye, too.

[G. Novella]

Well, you can't blame Remus for the Sirius matter. For several reasons.

A) Sirius mistrusted him too. Sirius isn't exactly the most subtle guy, and if he mistrusted Remus, he'd make it known. If it came down to Remus killing James and Lily, and Peter being the good guy who died, who would he have chosen, especially if he's already doubting Remus? Sure he should remember that Remus's only reason to live anymore is his friends and that turning on them after everything they did is not Remus's character since he practically devotes his life to the people who smile at him (See Dumbledore) but logically he'd support Peter, the one who died selflessly.

B) Peter was his best friend too. He had to choose between two friends, and he chose the one that he didn't mistrust, and the one that died a hero. Besides, it's not like he knew Peter's real plan, now did he?

[kumainpink]

I think Walburga ordered Kreacher to do unkind, maybe even harmful things to Sirius.

[Nahara46]

If horcrux' have such an influence on people and their lives. I wonder if having lived and been raised in a house with the Diary in it, may have effected Draco at all.

[basketsarah120]

Draco was already evil, because of his father. I don't think it effected him.