Bashing

[misschsparkle]

Jul 16, 2012 14:43:15 GMT -5 Nahara46 said:

I need to quickly address the fact that she asked what the platform was-I would think she'd do it to appease Ginny, give the girl a chance to answer a question. With so many brothers, it must be kind of difficult getting attention... And now she was suddenly going to get all of it. I'd try and ease my kid into the fact that all their siblings were going to be gone and they were going to get more attention.

Heh, that's just what I said, more or less to someone else, didn't see your answer until just now. A lot of people see her asking as a conspiracy but really, she had five kids to get onto a platform, two quite young and two who loved playing tricks. Now, that would be very stressful at the best of times, so if she automatically asked 'do you all know where you're going', I think she can be forgiven.

But I really think you're right, especially as she didn't ask the next year, when her final child was going. It would have been awful for poor Ginny, all her brothers going to the magically Hogwarts and her left behind with no sibling playmates.

[sherza]

Jul 17, 2012 3:15:40 GMT -5 misschsparkle said:

So, would you rather she just neglected them? Harry and Hermione had no family in the wizarding world, was it better to just abandon them and let them fend for themselves? Why is it bad that Molly was worried about how it would affect Harry? This was a Prophecy about how he would either be murdered or become a murderer, that's a lot of shit to deal with. And it's not fair to lump Harry with it and expect him to get on with it. Because that's the same in the wizarding world, you're just expected to get on with it and Molly didn't want that for Harry. Everyone else was happy to put all these expectations on it, she was one of the few that didn't. And Sirius, as Harry's guardian, never once made any real attempt to tell Harry about it, although he easily could have. Therefore, he was just arguing with molly, trying to act Alpha male when in reality, he agreed with her.

Ok, taking this bit by bit.

1) No, I don't want them abandoned, but there's a HUGE difference between OFFERING advice and guidance to kids that aren't your own and DEMANDING they obey you whether they want to or not when they're not your kids to be in charge of.

2) Yes, it was bad. Because this is HARRY. Whom she knows damn well has faced and beaten shit that no other kid has. Teenage hormonal angst aside, he's FAR more mature and aware of the brutality and mortality of life than most. Far more aware of how vicious, cruel, and unfair life is. He does not need to be coddled and protected from the realities of life.

Worse, he's got a maniacal dark lord and his followers after his ass. Who aren't going to quit until he's dead. Harry NEEDS every scrap of information the adults are holding, because whether they like it or not, Voldemort is Harry's problem, because Voldemort is making himself Harry's problem. He's not going to sit back and politely wait until Harry is a fully trained adult wizard, and submit his intention to be a pain in the ass in triplicate before he does anything, giving Harry months of time to get ready for him before their first big clash. That prophecy never should have been kept from Harry after the TriWiz. Before that ... ok, I can accept not telling him, though it doesn't make me a happy camper the longer he's not told. But once Voldemort had a body, Harry damn well needed to be fully briefed, because the game just changed and the stakes just went through the freaking roof.

Sirius understood at least that much. He never treated Harry like an incompetent child. He treated Harry like Harry was a damn sight closer to Sirius' age. And no, I never got the impression he thought Harry was James. Or really wished Harry was more like him. Sirius was under a shite-ton of pressure when he said that. It's unfortunate as hell, but given everything we know about Sirius' life, I can see where he'dve been getting snappish as all hell in that damn house.

Further, as to why Sirius never told Harry about the Prophecy ... he tried, and there was an Order meeting either right before or right after. Molly stuck her damn nose in where it wasn't needed, and after that, I got the impression she told Dumbledore Sirius was going to spill the beans to Harry, and Dumbledore told Sirius off for it. And given that Sirius was a wanted convict in hiding, and Dumbledore could conceivably ratted him out if Sirius fought him, I rather think Sirius reluctantly decided to keep his mouth shut so he could be there for Harry, rather than sincerely on the run trying to avoid the Aurors.

[Ayrine Sun]

I am just stating facts. you know. I am not angry at Molly for what she did. Every person did what he/she did FOR Harry not AGAINST him. But I didn't appreciate that she told to Sirius who was at 2" from depression that he is useless, incompetent and he should just shut up.

The problems with Molly is she can't compromise, Sirius didn't say 'Harry you will Kill Voldemort or be killed, now you know, you can go to bed', he just gave him some scarps of informations that helped him not go totally insane. Harry needed those informations.

Sirius is not totally ready to take care of Harry, but he knows him and knows what is going in Harry's mind.

All in all, the fact that you think you are right doesn't give you the right to hurt others, and Molly should be called out for it.

As for the conspiracy, lol, it was fun to imagine it, and I said I don't think they had malicious intentions, it's Dumbledore way of actions, when he can't trust others with important informations, they can't choose the best decisions for themselves and he has to do it for them. It's horrible and it backs fire, but well, it's the only way Dumbledore he knows and the fact that he is nearly venerated as a half god by those people doesn't help him think better of it. He really need a therapy.

[G. Novella]

No, Sirius did start treating Harry like James, and the reason I say start is quite simple. In POA it was all about protecting the last link to James and Lily, the last bit of his family. In GOF it was getting to know Harry, enjoying freedom, and just keeping Harry safe. However, at the same time, a part of Sirius was treating Harry as an equal instead of as a child. But I can understand that. Sirius doesn't have experience with kids. He's awkward around them. That's why I say Sirius isn't fatherly, he's more of an older brother or fun uncle.

However, in OOTP, Sirius was frustrated with everything around him. He wanted something that was freeing. He was once again trapped and it was hard on him after being free, and I can sympathize. But in his frustration to accept that he wasn't dealing well with his issues, he tried using Harry as leverage to get freedom. When he was younger, James was his connection to freedom from his family (He ran away to James, James helped convince him into Gryffindor) So naturally he tried to push Harry into that role for him. He wanted Harry to let him be free. And while Harry may have wanted that for Sirius, Harry had other issues. He was fifteen and in no position to take on Sirius as well. While Sirius could have helped Harry, he needed to help himself first.

Molly's anger with Sirius was a build up of things. He wasn't taking responsibility and that he was treating Harry like a fully-fledged adult were the main issues. Remember during the cleaning, how Molly was the one organizing things, trying to keep the kids busy. What was Sirius doing? Helping? He took no order of the situation in a house he knows as dangerous. He didn't want to help, but had no choice.

Then he kept relaying all his troubles onto Harry (i.e how he can't do anything, how he's stuck in his house, showing his misery) Those are behaviors you use around a friend, not a kid. Just because Harry's been through a shite-ton of things, doesn't mean he's ready to be an adult. He was still immature, as witnessed in his yelling at everyone. He was filled with anger and pain. While Molly may not have been right in hiding things from Harry, she was right that Harry wasn't mentally ready for the prophecy. It still amazed me that Dumbledore gave it up after Sirius died. Talk about disappointing.

Ideally, Harry should have been given assistance and care to cope after the Third Task. He should have been smothered by Molly but had someone to talk to about the darker things (SIRIUS). He needed to reach a level of calm within himself, and reach a point where he could move past the PTSD. During this time he should learn Occlumency for self-sanity, alongside Ron and Hermione who anyone with brains and eyes can tell would be privy to Harry's doings because they're his only real family since entering the Wizarding World. Then he should have been sat down with Ron and Hermione, in a calm setting, maybe around Christmastime, and told the prophecy by Dumbledore with Sirius, Molly and whomever else was privy to helping his mental being along. Then Molly would smother him, Sirius would offer his advice, and they'd ease him into the idea.

[Kitty279]

That plan how to handle things makes much more sense than what canon did, though I am not sure Harry would want the smothering to the degree Molly would do. Besides, Molly would fight tooth and nail against telling him because she still sees him as a child that needs to be protected from reality, even with a megalomaniac mass murderer after his life. In her eyes, not knowing anything would protect him, after all - or that's the impression she gives me.

Telling Harry the prophecy at *that* point in time was IMO one of the worst things Dumbledore ever did. The poor boy was upset and distraught and under shock - what a great moment do drop the weight of the world on his shoulders. Talk about callous!

[Ayrine Sun]

Jul 17, 2012 5:09:19 GMT -5 G. Novella said:

No, Sirius did start treating Harry like James, and the reason I say start is quite simple. In POA it was all about protecting the last link to James and Lily, the last bit of his family. In GOF it was getting to know Harry, enjoying freedom, and just keeping Harry safe. However, at the same time, a part of Sirius was treating Harry as an equal instead of as a child. But I can understand that. Sirius doesn't have experience with kids. He's awkward around them. That's why I say Sirius isn't fatherly, he's more of an older brother or fun uncle.

However, in OOTP, Sirius was frustrated with everything around him. He wanted something that was freeing. He was once again trapped and it was hard on him after being free, and I can sympathize. But in his frustration to accept that he wasn't dealing well with his issues, he tried using Harry as leverage to get freedom. When he was younger, James was his connection to freedom from his family (He ran away to James, James helped convince him into Gryffindor) So naturally he tried to push Harry into that role for him. He wanted Harry to let him be free. And while Harry may have wanted that for Sirius, Harry had other issues. He was fifteen and in no position to take on Sirius as well. While Sirius could have helped Harry, he needed to help himself first.

Molly's anger with Sirius was a build up of things. He wasn't taking responsibility and that he was treating Harry like a fully-fledged adult were the main issues. Remember during the cleaning, how Molly was the one organizing things, trying to keep the kids busy. What was Sirius doing? Helping? He took no order of the situation in a house he knows as dangerous. He didn't want to help, but had no choice.

Then he kept relaying all his troubles onto Harry (i.e how he can't do anything, how he's stuck in his house, showing his misery) Those are behaviors you use around a friend, not a kid. Just because Harry's been through a shite-ton of things, doesn't mean he's ready to be an adult. He was still immature, as witnessed in his yelling at everyone. He was filled with anger and pain. While Molly may not have been right in hiding things from Harry, she was right that Harry wasn't mentally ready for the prophecy. It still amazed me that Dumbledore gave it up after Sirius died. Talk about disappointing.

Ideally, Harry should have been given assistance and care to cope after the Third Task. He should have been smothered by Molly but had someone to talk to about the darker things (SIRIUS). He needed to reach a level of calm within himself, and reach a point where he could move past the PTSD. During this time he should learn Occlumency for self-sanity, alongside Ron and Hermione who anyone with brains and eyes can tell would be privy to Harry's doings because they're his only real family since entering the Wizarding World. Then he should have been sat down with Ron and Hermione, in a calm setting, maybe around Christmastime, and told the prophecy by Dumbledore with Sirius, Molly and whomever else was privy to helping his mental being along. Then Molly would smother him, Sirius would offer his advice, and they'd ease him into the idea.

I agree, essentially with the last part, that how it should be done, but the problem is that the Wizarding World doesn't seem to have psychological and mental assistance (I think the best they have is st. Mango and they just put lock out the people who has a magical induced craziness).
The adult themselves are still struggling with their own traumas, even Molly who lost her brothers, and they are all running away from them because they don't know how to face them.

Dumbledore plays the ostrich, Sirius wants to flee and Molly denies any danger and convinces herself that the war only concern adults.

[G. Novella]

Molly would have fought, but that's her personality as a mother. If she didn't, we'd call it OOC but if she knew it was coming, she'd brace herself for it, and if everyone around her was against it, she'd let it go. She's not stupid to pick a fight she can't win.

[Ayrine Sun]

I thought of something, Harry was with the Dursleys from Nov. 1981 to Sept. 1991.
I would be curious how society dealt with child abuse and how proficient they were to recognize it in the late 1980 and early 1990 in England?
I think they only updated their policy about it in the end 1970 and early 1980, the change had started, but maybe it was slow?
JK was a teacher (I think?) before she start writing, it seems that she wasn't formed to recognize abuse, because she is clueless about it.
And how things would be different if Harry was born 20 years later?

[basketsarah120]

It would've been a lot different if Harry was born twenty years later.. But Dumbles would've found a way to obliviate the muggles so Harry would have to stay with his aunt and uncle.

[Ayrine Sun]

Jul 17, 2012 7:30:33 GMT -5 basketsarah120 said:

It would've been a lot different if Harry was born twenty years later.. But Dumbles would've found a way to obliviate the muggles so Harry would have to stay with his aunt and uncle.

Yeah because obliviating continually all the town isn't suspicious. their brain wouldn't turn to cheese and I imagine the muggle news about all habitants of Privet Drive and all around having an epidemic cases of severe memory losses.

[basketsarah120]

Lol. I wouldn't put it past Dumbles to do that though. He needs his pawn after all..

[Ayrine Sun]

Jul 17, 2012 7:46:11 GMT -5 basketsarah120 said:

Lol. I wouldn't put it past Dumbles to do that though. He needs his pawn after all..

If he wanted a pawn, he would have kept Harry in his robes. Not put him with the Dursleys and subject him to their influence and beliefs.

[physicssquid]

Jul 17, 2012 5:09:19 GMT -5 G. Novella said:

No, Sirius did start treating Harry like James, and the reason I say start is quite simple. In POA it was all about protecting the last link to James and Lily, the last bit of his family. In GOF it was getting to know Harry, enjoying freedom, and just keeping Harry safe. However, at the same time, a part of Sirius was treating Harry as an equal instead of as a child. But I can understand that. Sirius doesn't have experience with kids. He's awkward around them. That's why I say Sirius isn't fatherly, he's more of an older brother or fun uncle.

However, in OOTP, Sirius was frustrated with everything around him. He wanted something that was freeing. He was once again trapped and it was hard on him after being free, and I can sympathize. But in his frustration to accept that he wasn't dealing well with his issues, he tried using Harry as leverage to get freedom. When he was younger, James was his connection to freedom from his family (He ran away to James, James helped convince him into Gryffindor) So naturally he tried to push Harry into that role for him. He wanted Harry to let him be free. And while Harry may have wanted that for Sirius, Harry had other issues. He was fifteen and in no position to take on Sirius as well. While Sirius could have helped Harry, he needed to help himself first.

Molly's anger with Sirius was a build up of things. He wasn't taking responsibility and that he was treating Harry like a fully-fledged adult were the main issues. Remember during the cleaning, how Molly was the one organizing things, trying to keep the kids busy. What was Sirius doing? Helping? He took no order of the situation in a house he knows as dangerous. He didn't want to help, but had no choice.

Then he kept relaying all his troubles onto Harry (i.e how he can't do anything, how he's stuck in his house, showing his misery) Those are behaviors you use around a friend, not a kid. Just because Harry's been through a shite-ton of things, doesn't mean he's ready to be an adult. He was still immature, as witnessed in his yelling at everyone. He was filled with anger and pain. While Molly may not have been right in hiding things from Harry, she was right that Harry wasn't mentally ready for the prophecy. It still amazed me that Dumbledore gave it up after Sirius died. Talk about disappointing.

Ideally, Harry should have been given assistance and care to cope after the Third Task. He should have been smothered by Molly but had someone to talk to about the darker things (SIRIUS). He needed to reach a level of calm within himself, and reach a point where he could move past the PTSD. During this time he should learn Occlumency for self-sanity, alongside Ron and Hermione who anyone with brains and eyes can tell would be privy to Harry's doings because they're his only real family since entering the Wizarding World. Then he should have been sat down with Ron and Hermione, in a calm setting, maybe around Christmastime, and told the prophecy by Dumbledore with Sirius, Molly and whomever else was privy to helping his mental being along. Then Molly would smother him, Sirius would offer his advice, and they'd ease him into the idea.

I disagree. Harry did not need smothering. He just needed someone to be there for him, to talk to him and generally be there for him to talk to. That would have been best.

[G. Novella]

I'm not saying smothering, just someone to generally mother him a bit, treat him like a child. It's so nice to be babied once in a while IMO. I'm not saying all the time, but just have a moment where he can just be a child. From what we've seen at the Dursley's, he never got that throughout his life. I'm sure he'd get irritated, but that's why if he had other people besides Molly around him like Sirius to go for that adult treatment, he'd be better off. What he needed was a mix of things.

[physicssquid]

imo, it's horrible being treated like a child.

[G. Novella]

You mean you don't like to be babied? Just have someone make you food, and tuck you in once in a while. Like when your sick and being taken care of. I love that. Not on a regular basis, but after a bad day, or when I'm sick, it's just the best feeling, after what Harry's been through, I think I'd just build myself a pillow fort and stay in there forever.

[Ayrine Sun]

So I imagined Dumbledore rendezvous with his shrink. Sorry for the bad humor.                         
 Dr. Shrink: "good day Albus, how are you doing".     
Albus, uncomfortable :" I'm fine, thank you" .
 Dr. Shrink:"so, how did your exercises go?".
Albus:...                                                            
Dr. Shrink, sternly : "Albus!".
Albus, muttering : "but I know better".
De. Shrink sigh  and brace himself for the conversation :" Albus, we have had this conversation a hundred times already, you know that if you DON'T make an effort, you WON'T get better".
Albus looking sheepish :" yes you are right, I am sorry".   
Dr. Shrink, still looking at him suspiciously :"OK! Now, say it loud and clear".
Albus, invoking a mirror and looking resigned:" I DON'T know BETTER. I only Know a little more. I DON'T have the right to lie, manipulate or force my decisions on others. Others have the right to choose their own paths even if I don't agree with their choice. I should listen to others opinions rather than brush them off".
 Dr. Shrink, seemingly satisfied: " good, you repeat those exercises 10 times each day". The good Dr. Then open his book-note and ask :" how is the list going?"
Albus, who was still looking into his reflexion in the mirror look to him and smile, he pull a big fat parchement roll and open it until the 1/10 :" I was able to do 13 names this week", he seemed really satisfied with himself.
Dr. Shrink :" ah, good, very good.  Did you find any problem?"
Albus: " well Hagrid was really understanding " then he grimaced "but Horace tried to hex me, I had to give him all my 400 bottles' collection of mead as compensation."
Dr. Shrink : " and any relaps?"
Albus looking any where but his dr.
Dr. Shrink alarmed " Albus, what did you do again?" 
Albus, guiltily :" it's nothing really."
Dr. Shrink, even more alarmed :" Albus!"
Albus: " Minerva was about to make a big mistake. I needed to stop her before it was too late".
Dr. Shrink, feeling his headache starting :" why didn't you speak with her first? You KNOW that you have TO TRUST her to make her own decision, she is a grown lady".
Albus, looking sad takes the parchement roll and writes 'Minerva McGonagall' on it, beside it he writes 'makes amend for taking her RIGHT to choose the new menu of Hogwarts start of term feast". And then he put it back in his robes.
 Dr. Shrink who is calmer and is happy that the session is about to end: " well we have done enough for today. I will see you next week. Don't forget your exercise and work on your list. And please try to keep out of other people business".
Albus :" I will dr. Thank you for everything and to next week".
AlBus leaves the room and dr. Shrink can finally relax.
Until his secretary informs  him that his next patient arrived Mr. Tom M. Riddle and dr. Shrink growl, feeling his headache returning with force.

[Kitty279]

ROFL - yes, that's Albus to a T, can't even leave the menu to someone else! Poor Dr.! And his next patient is even worse!

[kumainpink]

*laughs* That is freaking awesome! I love it!

[G. Novella]

*Giggles* Yup, that's Albus. Poor Shrink, *Leans in to hear Tom Riddle's Interview*

[kumainpink]

*snicker* That should be interesting...

[Nahara46]

In a quick little way to describe how I think Sirius is how people describe Hagrid- Trust him with you life, not your secrets. I'd trust Sirius with my life, but not my... raising. I'd prefer Molly as a mother, heavens I love being mothered. My own mom is amazing, but like Molly she had a lot of kids, but instead of getting more motherly with each kid, she got bored and tired of it and more or less let my siblings raise me as the youngest (I remember I used to only fall asleep in my Sister's arms when I was a baby.) Harry had to pretty much raise himself, so I think that Molly was a good influence on him. Yes, Molly was a bit over-controlling at some points, but for heavens sake, she had Charlie, Bill, Fred and George as children! It's either put your foot down, or they'd have gotten hurt every other hour.

[Ayrine Sun]

Thanks, was shaking of laugh while writing it.
Sadly, it's what happen when you think that knowing more means knowing better.
Yeah, the whole society really need a therapy. Dumbledore is the one can I relate to the most so it's easier to write for him.

Tom's session

Tom M. Riddle enters the room, chained to 2 Demontors and wearing orange robes.
Dr. Shrink :"hello Tom, how are you?"
Tom narrows his eyes to him but doesn't answer.
Dr. Shrink :"So are you ready to speak about the crimes that you committed?"
Tom, looks at him with superb and arrogance: " I only took what was my birth right".
Dr. Shrink, shaking his head :" Tom, you nearly destroyed our world, don't you feel a little remorse".
Tom, with a twitching left eye :"I told you to call me Lord Voldemort or the Dark Lord or Master, you are lucky that Lord Voldemort doesn't have his wand right now" then he add " and remorse is for the weak".
Dr. Shrink sit upright in his his chair not intimidated, well, it's just because Tom doesn't have his wand: " Tom we already spoken about your tendency to call your self Lord Voldemort and to speak about yourself in the 3rd person of singular, that delusion of importance only aggravate your narcissism."
Tom, fisting his hands and yelling :" It's no delusion, Lord Voldemort is the greatest Wizard of all times."
Dr. Shrink, head ponding and feeling really tired :"Tom, you and I are seeing each other for 6 month and there is no progress, if it continues like that, I will be in the obligation to inform the Wizengamot that you are not cooperating".
Tom red from fury:" Lord Voldemort doesn't fear those righteous imbeciles, his power surpasses all theirs, they will regret defying him and die in terrible sufferance".
Dr. Shrink sigh then think of trying another tactic 'yeah, maybe this way' : " Tom, tell me more about Harry Potter"
Tom reaction to the loathed name is immediate, his body stiffen, his eyes narrow to minuscule slits and tension in the room rise until Dr. Shrink china vase explode making him jump, fortunately it was only his mother-in-law's gift.
Tom finally calms down and answer with low voice :"Harry Potter" the name slides from his mouth like a caress " Lord Voldemort greatest regret..." Dr. Shrink perk up 'finally, finally something I can work with' until Tom start hurling" IS THAT HE DIDN'T STOMP DOWN THAT LITTLE *BIP* *BIP* *BIP* *BIP* *BIP* *BIP* *BIP*"
He only stops 15 minutes later, halting, sweating and looking completely demented.
The poor Dr. Shrink head ponding, ears ringing and nerves wrecked decides to end the session and sends him back to his cell in Azkaban.

Then he call his secretary :"Marta, please postponement all my rendezvous of the rest of the week, to next week".
Marta:" Yes Dr." After a moment of hesitation, remarking his deplorable state " is everything al right Dr.?"
Dr. Shrink attempt to smile, which turn more like a grimace "it will be Marta, thank you". 'after a little vacation...I hope' he finishes mentally.

Yeah, Tom will never ever change, there is no hope. Not as good as Dumby but Hope you enjoy.

[Kitty279]

Thanks, I enjoyed it! And you're right, snake-face is never going to change, never mind show remorse. Way too deluded and convinced of his own importance. Poor shrink, one of them is bad enough, but both?

[Ayrine Sun]

Jul 17, 2012 13:22:38 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Thanks, I enjoyed it! And you're right, snake-face is never going to change, never mind show remorse. Way too deluded and convinced of his own importance. Poor shrink, one of them is bad enough, but both?

The first Wizard with psychological/psychiatric formation. They only have him, the Poor Dr. Shrink has a lot of work ahead of him. lol

[Nahara46]

I think that the wizarding world does have therapists, sort of. In the fifth book there is clearly someone working with Lockhart.

[Kitty279]

I always think that some Muggleborn, who know what a psychologist/psychiatrist is should have got some muggle degree for that and then gone back to the wizarding world to work in that field. They'd be so much needed! (And they could give certain people lessons in why they do stuff all wrong!)

[G. Novella]

I don't think it was so much therapy as general minding him and probing him with magic to see if the brain got fixed. The lady seemed more like a Nurse than a fledged doctor to me, Nahara.

[Nahara46]

True, But I personally think that they're are therapists, called Mind Healers like many fanfictions have. It just that no one goes to them when they should. ( A good deal of real life people could do with a therapy session or two, but never go.)

[physicssquid]

Given how far behind the times the magical world seems to be, I don't think they would believe that psychology is worthwhile. If a muggle-born did do a psychology degree, I can't really see anyone employing him or her, nor can I see them having any patients other than those who were brought up in the muggle world and believed in psychology.
Heck, I can't see Hermione believing in psychology, so she probably wouldn't drag Ron or Harry to see a psychologist. She probably thinks psychology is as woolly as Divination.