Police Forces

[19811945]

Do you think that all police forces in the world should carry guns?

On Tuesday, two female police officers where killed in the Tameside area of Manchester (UK). There was reports of an alleged burglary in process, but it was a rouse to get some police officers to the scene. This idiot (Dale Cregan), shot them and threw a grenade at them.

He also murdered a father and son (in separate incidents back in May).

England, Wales and Scotland front line police officers don't have fire arms, but we do have fire arms units. Northern Ireland front line police officers do have guns due to the IRA (and their counterparts) in the past.

From what I can remember, there are only a half a dozen to a dozen forces that doesn't have firearms with the front line police officers.

[Chameleon]

That's sad...

I live in Faroe Islands, so I don't know anything about it ... Our first murder in 24 years happened last year. (They've still not found the body, but the supposed killers are upon trial now).

[mountaingirl777]

shouldn't this be in the General Discussion?

[Kitty279]

True. *goes to move the topic*

[mountaingirl777]

Thanks Kitty.

Now, back to the topic. I believe all our forces carry guns. Really, somedays I just want to leave the US or, at least, California. All the murdering is getting too much. All we hear on the news who killed who and why they did it, or what the media thinks why they did it.

Even if they carried guns, it doesn't mean they are any safer.

[Kitty279]

Our police has weapons, but they aren't allowed to use them lightly. If they kill someone, there's an inquiry to check if they really had sufficient reason (self-defense, for instance, when they get attacked, or taking someone down who was running amok or something like that).
Seeing some news about how in the US policemen shot someone so many times usually leaves me shaking my head in disbelief. In most cases, the police would be in trouble about that, too.

[Chameleon]

Yeah ... I feel suddenly lucky that I live in Faroe Islands, where nobody gets murdered ... Well we have that man who got killed, but yeah. I'm one of these people who think it's not changed at all, just because we've had one case for the first time in 25 years. And the man was in his forties - fifties, so I don't think there's a serial killer going around here.

[Kitty279]

It's got to be good to live in such a peaceful place. And no, one murder doesn't mean serial killings.The odd case will always happen. 25 years without a murder sound very peaceful to me!

[mountaingirl777]

Yeah, our police are a little gun happy. There was a story a while back about a police officer shoot a guys dog just because he was barking, apparently that is a sign that the dog is violent.

I also hate how our police treat those who protest. No need to teargas them if they are only shouting and marching. I understand that there are some protesters who go overboard and need to be apprehended, but still our police don't think before doing something. In the US, I've noticed, we have no common sense anymore.

The other thing is that we don't get the full story of what happened. We get the media's version and most of the time it is exaggerated.

[Chameleon]

Yeah I know ... Everyone is 99 % sure that they can walk out in the dark and not get murdered or something like that. I'm gonna go for a walk in the dark right now ... x) I'm a bit creeped out though, since I've just watched a movie where you want to yell, don't go jogging in the night in the woods.

[G. Novella]

I live in a pretty safe neighborhood, but I watch way too many criminal shows and documentaries, so I freak out at even leaving my door unlocked while checking the mailbox.... But yeah, I think officers should carry guns, but know the difference between necessity and crazy.

[Chameleon]

Hahah. I watch many criminal shows too, but I don't freak. My door is usually only closed when no one is home, and at night. Other wise it's always open. But well, that's only here. When I'm at my brother's apartment (in another country), the door is always locked, no matter if we're home or not.

[G. Novella]

My neighborhood I know all my neighbors, but I don't talk to them. And I'm paranoid as it is.

[RogueNya]

I actually saw a special about this type of topic on TV not that long ago. I think it was funded by the NRA but that is besides the point. The went on showing why Guns are rather important to have, as there is a number of movements here in the USA to have our rights to bare arms taken away. And really seeing what happens in other countries that did that, (UK and Ireland to name a few) it left the Police or other such agencies with no means to fight back.

Yet on the flip side of things there is not as much crime in regard to guns as there is in other countries, which makes things a good bit more peaceful.

But in the long run we as a people are not yet ready to do away with Guns as a form of protection. So unlike Swords which is vary rarely used this day and age, it is going to take time for the Gun to be fazed out and replaced with something else. Most likely a Stun Gun (a real one like in Star Trek). So till that time Guns are needed.

[princedice1]

If Police Officers here in states are not shooting somebody with a gun, they're shocking an unarmed criminal with a taser gun.

[teflonbilly]

Sept 21, 2012 14:46:14 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Our police has weapons, but they aren't allowed to use them lightly. If they kill someone, there's an inquiry to check if they really had sufficient reason (self-defense, for instance, when they get attacked, or taking someone down who was running amok or something like that).
Seeing some news about how in the US policemen shot someone so many times usually leaves me shaking my head in disbelief. In most cases, the police would be in trouble about that, too.

Any time an officer in the U.S. discharges their firearm in the line of duty, there is an investigation.

You need to keep in mind that the US is 5 times bigger in population and has a whole host of other demographic issues that drive violence that just doesn't exist in the UK. It isn't just popular American culture or opinions on guns.

Our cops are not trigger happy yahoos, for the most part. Just like you had a Metro Cop in London just gun down a guy in the Tube and that was an extreme aberation, the same goes for those kind of incidences in the US.

And, IMO, I don't think the risk of having unarmed patrol officers is proper, but that is up to your local councils/municipal police forces to decide.

TB

[Kitty279]

Actually, I don't live in the UK, but in Germany. And bearing arms is absolutely, strictly forbidden for the people here. No one is allowed to run around armed. While you can own them and use them for sports, if you'd walk around with them and get caught, you'd be in huge trouble. And at home, they have to be locked away securely. When, for instance, a son takes Daddy's gun and shots someone, the Dad can get punished, too, if he can't prove the gun was locked in a safe or well-locked weapon cupboard.

The American insistence that everyone has to be allowed to own and carry deadly weapons is regarded with some suspicion and disbelief here - it's simply not done here. Besides, it were the Americans themselves who back after the war arrested my grandmother for owning a knife she used as a can opener, but in their eyes was a weapon, leaving three children between 10 and 4 alone in the house. They'd never allowed anyone to keep guns. And nowadays it's just normal that we don't go armed.

Sorry, no offense meant. Most policemen are probably not that bad, but I've seen too many news about the way some suspects were taken out and with what we here would consider bad overreaction and overdone brutality. Sure, it sometimes happens elsewhere, too, but most of these incidents I heard of were happening in the US. Over time, it stucks - and leaves one wonder if that's the exception or the rule.

In the end, it probably comes down to me being used to that civilians don't wear weapons, so my perspective of it is necessarily very different from an American.

[blackroses77]

I'm from America and believe in the right to bear arms but the NRA have taken it to far. There are some guns that have nobusiness being on the streets but the NRA is constantly fighting to keep the most dangerous weapons on the streets. It's pathetic. Just this past Sunday a man walked into the restaurant I was eating at and he was carrying a gun, needlessto say we were pretty freaked out. When we talked to the manager she told us there was nothing she could do because he had a permit to carry the gun.

[Kitty279]

That's frightening, to be honest, and completely unthinkable for me. People walking around with that sort of weapon with no reason at all ... *shudder*

[19811945]

The UK Police Force Armed Response Unit, every time they shoot, even if they miss, are investigated by an independent body as to why.

There has to be more communications between the armed response unit and the front line police (especially if it includes top brass), that way no civilians are killed.

[Kitty279]

Sounds reasonable to me. It should keep accidents down. Sure, they *can* happen, but it should be the absolute exception.

[jaffaninja]

I'm from New Zealand and the police aren't allowed to carry guns here. It sounds quite similar to Germany - you're allowed them for hunting and stuff, but you need a special permit and you can get arrested otherwise. While we certainly still have murders and things like that, in almost none of them was a gun the weapon.

[teflonbilly]

Sept 22, 2012 2:00:14 GMT -5 Kitty279 said:

Actually, I don't live in the UK, but in Germany. And bearing arms is absolutely, strictly forbidden for the people here. No one is allowed to run around armed. While you can own them and use them for sports, if you'd walk around with them and get caught, you'd be in huge trouble. And at home, they have to be locked away securely. When, for instance, a son takes Daddy's gun and shots someone, the Dad can get punished, too, if he can't prove the gun was locked in a safe or well-locked weapon cupboard.

They are in some states moving towards making parents more liable (they are already somewhat liable in some ways) for the actions of their children.

The American insistence that everyone has to be allowed to own and carry deadly weapons is regarded with some suspicion and disbelief here - it's simply not done here.

There is no insistence that everyone has to carry weapons, there is an insistence that our CONSTITUTION is followed, which it explicitly states that the people of this country may keep and bear arms. It isn't done in Germany because your Constitution doesn't enumerate that as one of your fundamental rights as a citizen.

Besides, it were the Americans themselves who back after the war arrested my grandmother for owning a knife she used as a can opener, but in their eyes was a weapon, leaving three children between 10 and 4 alone in the house. They'd never allowed anyone to keep guns. And nowadays it's just normal that we don't go armed.

Your grandmother was living in under occupation by a foreign nation after your country was conquered. The rules are a little different for how you treat your own citizens verses the conquered peoples of the enemy. She was living under martial law, there are no rights other than what the General (and his bosses) say there are.

And during the American Civil War, when martial law was imposed on the south, the ability to own weapons was also highly restricted.

Sorry, no offense meant. Most policemen are probably not that bad, but I've seen too many news about the way some suspects were taken out and with what we here would consider bad overreaction and overdone brutality. Sure, it sometimes happens elsewhere, too, but most of these incidents I heard of were happening in the US. Over time, it stucks - and leaves one wonder if that's the exception or the rule.

The news (everywhere) follows the same adage: if it bleeds it leads. The reason you here about that stuff all the time is because the media distills everything that happens in a nation of 300+ million people down to the most sensational things so they can fill time on the air. By the same token I'd assume that german speaking people rife with incestuous pedophiles, because for the longest time all I heard out of that region of the world was the story about that girl who was kept prisoner by her father and gave birth to a bunch of kids by him.

In the end, it probably comes down to me being used to that civilians don't wear weapons, so my perspective of it is necessarily very different from an American.

I don't know why you feel that Americans are all walking around with six-shooters strapped to our legs, or a holster under our coats, but you are flat out wrong. 90%+ of Americans walking around aren't carrying. It's a fact.

And except for a handful cases in 10 years, no American with a concealed to carry weapons permit has commited a violent crime with that weapon. The overwhelming (literally 99.9999% of them) majority of all violent crimes are committed by people that have their weapons illegally already or were weapons that they might have had at home (like all legal owners in Germany.)

If you remove violent gang related crime from American crime statistics, Americans are not greatly more violent than any other western European person. It's the violent inner city gangs, which get their weapons illegally to begin with, that drive the news stories you see all the time over there. It is also the source of most of the perceived "quicker to shoot" aspect of our cops. It's because criminals over here are more willing to kill cops.

TB

[ayrine]

In my country, the police has to carry guns, it's a necessity, we still have attacks from time to times (not as bad as before, but it's still frightening). So a police without guns would be a death sentence for the policemen and the civilians as well, because civilians don't have the right to carry guns, so the police with the army are our only rampart.

For other countries, where the police don't carry guns, I am not sure of what to think, it's clear that in the USA, there is more crimes with guns and because they have the right to carry guns, a police without guns would be dangerous for them. For, others who don't, like Germany, well, if they can do without it, it's better. IMO the less guns there is in circulation, the less chance you have to hurt yourself or others.

[teflonbilly]

Sept 22, 2012 17:03:11 GMT -5 ayrine said:

In my country, the police has to carry guns, it's a necessity, we still have attacks from time to times (not as bad as before, but it's still frightening). So a police without guns would be a death sentence for the policemen and the civilians as well, because civilians don't have the right to carry guns, so the police with the army are our only rampart.

For other countries, where the police don't carry guns, I am not sure of what to think, it's clear that in the USA, there is more crimes with guns and because they have the right to carry guns, a police without guns would be dangerous for them. For, others who don't, like Germany, well, if they can do without it, it's better. IMO the less guns there is in circulation, the less chance you have to hurt yourself or others.

Also, I'd like to say that from speaking with plenty of my fellow Soldiers who have been stationed in Germany, the Polizei are known to be brutal, and very quick to use there collapsible batons on any pretext.

So it's a two way street, they don't use their guns as much, but they are absolutely not adverse to beating a suspect brutally when arresting him.

One person I know saw a Polizei strike a drunk but non-violent Soldier in the face braking his nose, cheak bone, and shattered the orbit of his eye with just one hit.

TB

[eskimoRock]

To be honest, I like the way it's done here in England for the most part. Somebody mentioned the guy being who on the tube,but you have to remember that that incident was a week after the tube bombings here, they were on high alert, and he ran away from the armed policemen after being asked to stop, which doesn't exactly scream innocence.

It just seems a lot more controlled, to be honest. The armed response units are pretty well trained. There was a case near me where somebody was holding his wife hostage in their house, claiming to have a gun, and they dealt with it without there even being any gunshots fired by armed response, they were able to calm it down before it even got to that.

[Kitty279]

Teflonbilly, I never said that I think you are walking around armed to the teeth, or that I think everoyne is shooting blindly at everyone else. What I mean is that some cases I heard about seemed a bit overdone to me, and that for many years I kept hearing how certain parties insisted on the *right* of civilians to be armed. That's a concept rather alien to me, as here it is simply not allowed. So please don't read more into my posts than I was saying.

Sept 22, 2012 17:03:11 GMT -5 ayrine said:

In my country, the police has to carry guns, it's a necessity, we still have attacks from time to times (not as bad as before, but it's still frightening). So a police without guns would be a death sentence for the policemen and the civilians as well, because civilians don't have the right to carry guns, so the police with the army are our only rampart.

For other countries, where the police don't carry guns, I am not sure of what to think, it's clear that in the USA, there is more crimes with guns and because they have the right to carry guns, a police without guns would be dangerous for them. For, others who don't, like Germany, well, if they can do without it, it's better. IMO the less guns there is in circulation, the less chance you have to hurt yourself or others.

Completely agree here!

Sept 22, 2012 17:23:32 GMT -5 teflonbilly said:

Also, I'd like to say that from speaking with plenty of my fellow Soldiers who have been stationed in Germany, the Polizei are known to be brutal, and very quick to use there collapsible batons on any pretext.

So it's a two way street, they don't use their guns as much, but they are absolutely not adverse to beating a suspect brutally when arresting him.

One person I know saw a Polizei strike a drunk but non-violent Soldier in the face braking his nose, cheak bone, and shattered the orbit of his eye with just one hit.

TB

Then your view is as biased as mine is on the US police. Actually, that sort of escalation usually happens only at mass demonstrations when emotions run high and some idiots who are out for violence try to stir up trouble by throwing stones and worse. And there were a lot of arguments about police overreacting already. Otherwise, your claim of brutality is as wrong as anything I may feel about the US. The usual course is de-escalation and works well.

[Chameleon]

Uha, uha. My opinion is something like Kitty's. If you don't need gun, then don't have it. But I think people should have something like ... taser. I know it's cruel, but it's the second-best after a gun. You never know what might happen. I'm a bit unsure about the police here, but I think some of them have a gun, others don't. Yeah, the policeman, when my class were visiting, said that he had never used it.

So guns aren't very much used here in Faroe Island. But you hear once in a while some people who stab others, luckily it's never been fatal in pretty long time. I don't know anyone who owns one, and I'm a bit unsure about the hunting stuff, since we don't really have any wild animals, except maybe hares.

[19811945]

Sept 23, 2012 4:43:34 GMT -5 Chameleon said:

Uha, uha. My opinion is something like Kitty's. If you don't need gun, then don't have it. But I think people should have something like ... taser. I know it's cruel, but it's the second-best after a gun. You never know what might happen. I'm a bit unsure about the police here, but I think some of them have a gun, others don't. Yeah, the policeman, when my class were visiting, said that he had never used it.

So guns aren't very much used here in Faroe Island. But you hear once in a while some people who stab others, luckily it's never been fatal in pretty long time. I don't know anyone who owns one, and I'm a bit unsure about the hunting stuff, since we don't really have any wild animals, except maybe hares.

I agree with the taser gun than the actual guns myself. It will cause a lot less pain and suffering - in case the person who has been shot is killed (family wise), less time in hospital. With tasers you need to go to hospital to have those needles removed from the body.

There are more people with hidden knifes than guns in the UK. Some estates in the town where I live, you find some people with hidden knifes and have their hoods up. More to do with turf war. Also there are family turf wars as well.

There are still murders, either by a weapon/gun or through other means, ie, a father killed his six month old child then he killed himself, this happened just round the corner to where I live.

Majority of the time, the UK police force, will ask the person nicely who's trying to have a go at either the officer or the member of public, if still goes on, they would become a little more forceful at asking to go away. I think they might give anything up to a dozen times before the officer will arrest the person under a public offence order. They can either get a warning or fine depending on the severity of the problem.

Sept 22, 2012 16:29:20 GMT -5 teflonbilly said:

In the end, it probably comes down to me being used to that civilians don't wear weapons, so my perspective of it is necessarily very different from an American.

I don't know why you feel that Americans are all walking around with six-shooters strapped to our legs, or a holster under our coats, but you are flat out wrong. 90%+ of Americans walking around aren't carrying. It's a fact.

And except for a handful cases in 10 years, no American with a concealed to carry weapons permit has commited a violent crime with that weapon. The overwhelming (literally 99.9999% of them) majority of all violent crimes are committed by people that have their weapons illegally already or were weapons that they might have had at home (like all legal owners in Germany.)

If you remove violent gang related crime from American crime statistics, Americans are not greatly more violent than any other western European person. It's the violent inner city gangs, which get their weapons illegally to begin with, that drive the news stories you see all the time over there. It is also the source of most of the perceived "quicker to shoot" aspect of our cops. It's because criminals over here are more willing to kill cops.

I actually agree you slightly on this TB, some inner city areas in the UK are a little like this, instead of guns, they use knifes instead. This could also be said to all cities in the world but replace the type of weapon, with whatever the culture likes to use as a weapon.

[blackroses77]

Yes but with knives you wouldn't have all these innocent kids being killed by drive by shootings. From what I've see on the news Chicago is so bad kids can't even play outside it's so unsafe because of all th e shooting. America needs to come up with much stricter gun laws.