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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 20, 2012 23:55:10 GMT -5
At least then the little fatty got the overdue exercise *eg*
Wouldn't it be much more difficult to have people show up only when they move? And if they show up no matter what they do, it would be more easy to find someone - no matter if you want to prank someone or just talk to him. Would James not always want to know where Lily was?
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Post by basketsarah120 on Jun 21, 2012 1:27:02 GMT -5
Probably Kitty lol. With the stalker he probably was.
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Post by overcastcrystal17 on Jun 21, 2012 1:35:43 GMT -5
But there has to be more to it than that. The map was able to show Ginny when she was not moving, remember? When Harry was on the hocrox hunt he would pull it out to look at her dot. There has to be more to the map, maybe they didn't see his dot because they weren't looking for it, but you would think, that when he is being chased by Crookshanks, before Fred and George gave Harry the map, they would see that their family rat wasn't a rat at all. Maybe they just didn't pay that much attention to Ron, which is sad to think. But if they had the map since their first year, how is it that they didn't notice a man in the place where their brother slept, a supposed dead man none the less.
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Post by anon on Jun 21, 2012 5:32:35 GMT -5
but lupin saw peter when ron had him.
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Post by Ithiarel on Jun 21, 2012 9:38:21 GMT -5
I always thought that the map only shows parts of the castle. How would the entire castle (plus grounds) fit onto it otherwise? Not only is Hogwarts incredibly big, but it is three dimensional. The map can't possible show all floors at the same time.
So, I figured that the map only shows a section of the whole thing. This would incidentally also explain why the twins never noticed Peter (why would they look at their own dorm? There are more important parts of the castle to look at...) and how Lupin noticed Peter (He was probably checking the secret passageways he knew about, and saw the name "Sirius Black". And then checked who else was near Sirius...)
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 21, 2012 10:13:49 GMT -5
Hm, that makes sense. There would have to be a feature that allows you to chose which floor you look at and all that. Maybe by tapping a sign at the side for the floor, or on the part of the castle you want to see better.
Of course, now I want to know exactly how that map works!!
Some years ago, I did read that JKR plans to write a HP lexicon. Does anyone know if that is still on, or was Pottermore replacing it?
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Post by kumainpink on Jun 21, 2012 11:06:05 GMT -5
Me too! Argh! First its one thing, then another!
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Post by overcastcrystal17 on Jun 21, 2012 11:43:23 GMT -5
Not part of conversation, really, but they took out the ampatheatre in Universal Studios Hollywood to add in the "World of Harry Potter," like they have in Florida. Kind of tragity, although it would be cool to have it here. The only conserts I have ever been to were in that ampatheatre.
My theory, is that the map is expandable, so to speak. You can chose what area of the castle to look at. You know that James, Sirius, and Remus would want to know all the obsticals in the way of their diabolical plans all over the castle. I don't know, maybe not, maybe there are more layers than we know of.
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Post by dracosfairmaiden on Jun 21, 2012 12:49:52 GMT -5
I have to admit, that does make sense. The map kind of folded over in the movie, so maybe there's a way to show only a floor or corridor.
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Post by Serena R. Snape on Jun 23, 2012 11:25:48 GMT -5
I'm barging in here as well. I'm also admitting that I didn't read your comments past page one. There were just too many.
Here are my opinions on the Marauders:
James - I neither like him nor dislike him. It's the fact that he's an arrogant bully that puts me off. I don't get why Sirius or even Remus try to make him out as a saint - he clearly wasn't. I mean, "It's merely the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean." That's a thing only a bully can say. I don't get how Lily could fall in love with him if she hated him for six years and the just started dating him in seventh. I can't help but feel that something hinky is going on there. I don't care for the explanation that he "deflated his head" a bit when he got named Head Boy. You don't just "deflate your head" in one summer.
It makes me wonder how he would treat Harry if he met him on the Hogwarts Express instead of Snape - I think he would bully him too.
Sirius - same as with James. I think he's way too prejudiced to be a good father-figure to Harry. He would always try to colour things with his own opinion and get angry with Harry if he didn't conform to his way of thinking. Just look how angry he was with Harry when he didn't want to meet him in Hogsmeade. I also think that he didn't see just Harry, but instead James's son. In the book, I thought that he was obsessed with James, with how much he mentioned him. And in the movie, they had Sirius call Harry James, just before he died. That proves my point that he doesn't think of Harry as Harry. And don't let me start on his moodiness in 5th book - he was acting like a sulking child for the most of it.
Peter - I dislike him a lot. 'nuff said.
Remus - I liked him a lot in 3rd book, but cooled my opinion of him when I read the rest of the books. I don't get why he didn't contact Harry after 4th year, or even after Sirius died. He's such a coward in my opinion. He would never do anything against his friends because he's afraid that they would abandon him. He can't stand up to Dumbledore, when he's clearly in the wrong (placing Harry with the Dursleys, placing Sirius under house arrest,...). He wanted to abandon his wife and unborn child because he was scared that the child would be a werewolf. He was afraid to fall in love with Tonks and became very aggressive after they got married (he yelled at her in the 6th book when they came to the Burrow).
I can see through what I read up there that I mostly dislike the Marauders. I do have to admit that I was bullied in school as well, so I know exactly how Snape felt all the times when they went after him and that makes me wonder if one of the reasons for the creation of the Marauder's Map wasn't the fact that they could find Snape whenever they wanted.
And about Sirius being innocent - sure he's innocent of the crime they locked him up for, but he's not innocent from bullying Snape and not being even a bit sorry for what happened. I don't believe his "We were young and stupid." excuse. Harry's fifteen and he never thought of bullying anyone. Even his rivalry with Malfoy isn't as bad as what the Marauders did to Snape.
I also remembered a few lines from Half Blood Prince: "James Potetr and Sirius Black. Apprehended using an illegal hex upon Bertraum Aubrey. Aubrey's head twice normal size. Double detention." It's obvious that they weren't bullying just Snape but other students as well from the list of detentions they had been listed for. There was a lot of petty things listed there.
Sirius and James are completelly different from the Weasley Twins. The Twins do pranks to amuse people, while the Marauders hurt them, and bullied them, because they were, and I quote Sirius here, BORED.
Sure, the Marauders are cool enough - IF you've never been in the victims's shoes, but if you were - then they lose a lot of their coolness.
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Post by Ithiarel on Jun 23, 2012 11:47:38 GMT -5
Their long list of detentions is worth mentioning. So, thank's for pointing it out to me. I'd completely forgotten about that.
As far as I remember, the Marauders had the longest list of detentions in Filch's office (a whole cupboard wasn't it?). It can't honestly been only destruction of school property and being out of bed after hours (they had an invisibility cloak after all). So what were all those detentions for, if not getting in trouble with other students?
Somehow, Sirius always striked me as the most "dangerous" of the group, in the sense that he was the most careless and indifferent to other students.
Peter? Well, I see him more as a tag-along whose behaviour served as encouragement on occasion.
James always struck me as snooty. Not so much arrogant, per se, but rather more snobbish and cocky. I have no doubt that he would have made fun of Harry in his taped glasses and too wide clothes. Added to that, he had strong prejudices against all things Slytherin and through that encouraged Sirius' in his attitudes.
Remus... well, Remus annoys me. Mostly because I can't relate to him at all. He strikes me as really self-pitying. I get that he was thankful for being allowed to attend Hogwarts (something no other Headmaster than Dumbledore would have allowed). But this thankfulness somehow turned into a dependancy towards Dumbledore and the group of friends he hang out with. Sometimes, I wonder if Remus wouldn't have done better in life if he had not gone to Hogwarts, if his parents had rather prepared him for life in the muggle world instead...
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Post by G. Novella on Jun 23, 2012 12:11:46 GMT -5
See what I think of James is that despite being arrogant, Sirius probably tried to put more emphasis on James's prejudices with his own dark stories. Though they were the best of friends, I see the two as bringing out the worst in each other.
I will say it now, and have said it before, Sirius was not an ideal father figure many fan fics try and make him. He was as many of you have said, rebellious, indifferent, careless, etc. He would have pushed Harry to be more like James, as seen in OOTP. While I do like Sirius and find him a rather interesting character, I do believe that many people overlook his flaws.
James I think did grow up eventually, but it probably took less time with Sirius while being head boy, and more time having to be responsible. I do believe he was a bully, but I think it was from the fact that he was raised to be spoiled, and because very few people stood up to him. I mean, the entire time Snape was being bullied in OOTP, the crowd neither cared. They just watched and laughed, and it took Lily to stop him. I think that's what attracted him to Lily, the fact that she said no.
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Post by Ithiarel on Jun 23, 2012 12:24:59 GMT -5
I agree with you on all points.
And I would like to add that I always considered Sirius a less-than-ideal father figure because he never really grew up, due to his stint in Askaban. I think those years were truly lost to him. How could he have grown up in that time, when all he could do is dwell on his bad memories? If anything, his stay in Askaban strenghtened the worst parts of his character.
Sadly, this is a common occurrence between best of friends. The encouragement of negative behaviours occurs in all kind of friendships, but in varying degrees.
Talking about group dynamics, there is another point related to this, namely, that some groups don't allow for growth beyond the confines of the friendship.
I'm not sure how much this might be an issue, but I find it interesting to think about: If James had had the time to become even more responsible and grown up, would the friendship between him and Sirius have persisted?
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Post by Serena R. Snape on Jun 23, 2012 12:38:51 GMT -5
I just thought of something about Sirius' obsession with James. The night James was killed - Sirius didn't stay with Harry, even though he was his Godfather, but let Hagrid take him to the Dursleys while he went after James's killer, Pettigrew.
And all he ever told Harry about his mother (from what I remember, if he told him anything about her at all (I have a sneaking suspicion it was Remus that told him about his mother) is that she was good at Charms (notice he didn't mention Potions...) and not much else. They all focus so much on James that Lily is neglected.
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Post by readingwizard4 on Jun 23, 2012 12:41:29 GMT -5
The Marauders all have their faults but would James accept Sirius as a friend since he was a Black if he was a total jerk? How about with Remus? They accepted him didn't they? The difference between Harry and James was that they grew up in different lifestyles. James didn't lose his parents until he was in his late teens I think. I'd wager that James lost one of his parents before 7th year and that helped James mature. Plus James was born late in his parents lives so they spoiled him. Makes James similar to Malfoy. Harry lost his parents at 15 months and lived with the Dursleys. James got his fame from being a wealthy popular pureblood and was good at Quidditch. Harry got his fame for surviving the killing curse but lost his parents. I would rather have the first one. Everything that happened to Harry never happened to James
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Post by Ithiarel on Jun 23, 2012 12:46:43 GMT -5
And all he ever told Harry about his mother (from what I remember, if he told him anything about her at all (I have a sneaking suspicion it was Remus that told him about his mother) is that she was good at Charms (notice he didn't mention Potions...) and not much else. They all focus so much on James that Lily is neglected. And intriguingly, Harry already knew that. If you remember back, the first person to tell him which classes his parents favoured was Mr. Ollivander. So, Remus and/or Sirius never actually told him something new about his mother. Even worse: When Harry looked into Snape's pensieve memory, he didn't even recognize the initials L.E. that James was scribbling as belonging to his mother! I think, in terms of group dynamics, Sirius fulfilled the roles of Hero, Seducer, and Combatant in the group. Meaning that he was: a) the one that wanted to be noticed, came up with ideas, was always prepared to take action b) seduced others to help him out (he was a lady's man, after all); and knew exactly which buttons to push to get what he wanted c)was easily angered, saw a fight as the solution to his problems, liked action, and was easily bored. All of these social roles point to him going after the traitor instead of staying put and waiting for back-up. |
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Post by Serena R. Snape on Jun 23, 2012 12:48:53 GMT -5
Does anyone else get the feeling that there was just a bit of an unrequited love between Sirius and James? XD
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Post by kumainpink on Jun 23, 2012 12:53:02 GMT -5
I do. XD
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Post by dracosfairmaiden on Jun 23, 2012 13:19:15 GMT -5
The problem with James is that Harry only saw him in one memory. That memory didn't exactly portray the marauders in good light. I do think James was a bit of bully but something must have happened to make him mellow out a little.
Sirius at least was in Azkaban for 12 years. It's like solitary confinement in there. No human contact for that long can damage a person's mind. That may be why that even when he was older, he still had a teenager's mentality.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 23, 2012 13:50:03 GMT -5
You know, I find it interesting that people are so ready to judge - and damn - James and Sirius on the basis of one or two memories, which are shown from the POV of Snape - the most biased person I know. On the other hand, Snape can prove over and over again many times in each book what a bastard he is, but despite all the first-hand proof, people find many excuses for him.
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Post by Ithiarel on Jun 23, 2012 14:02:48 GMT -5
Imo, that's because I can't see Snape as the ready initiator of most fights. From what we know from his memories (the prince's tale) he was a rather small boy. And also rather quiet (mostly due to his home life, I gather).
I can't see a boy like that willingly initiating fights with four (!) other boys, two of which we know to have been boisterous, loud, and occasionally outright brash...
Also, the very first confrontation between him and the (future) Marauders took place on the train ride to Hogwarts. And Sirius was the main instigator. That too, was one of the memories Harry got from him.
Now, people might argue about the validity of those memories (they came from Snape after all), but Slughorn's memory has shown that altering a memory is incredibly difficult. And Snape was dying when he gave Harry those memories - I'm fairly certain that he had no real control left in that moment. He just "shed out" everything that was foremost in his head, hoping that among those memories would be the one Dumbledore asked him to pass on to Harry.
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Post by Kitty279 on Jun 23, 2012 14:22:12 GMT -5
That's not exactly what I mean. When you ask different people about the same incident, you will often get different reports, and all will be convinced that it happened exactly like they said. That makes me wonder how much that sort of memory is coloured by the source. It has nothing to do with consciously altering them.
And we have only these few memories as proof, but know that Snape tried to get the Marauders expelled. So, were all incidents like the few we saw, or did Harry just see the bad/worst ones? Besides, there are other means to get back at the Marauders than just outright confronting them. Snape would be the type to try some traps for them, IMO. He's way too vindictive not to get back at them.
And no matter what the truth is, Snape ended up being a worse bully than the Marauders ever were, because he abused his power as a teacher to bully students, who could defend themselves against him even less. And he never really grew up, either. Still, I see so many people excuse that all the time, and it frustrates me immensely.
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Post by kumainpink on Jun 23, 2012 14:31:24 GMT -5
Exactly. This is why I'm neutral on both Snape and the Marauders. It's so easy to judge them! I feel they're both at fault for the things that went wrong with them at school, and that they were both generally horrible to each other.
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Post by Ithiarel on Jun 23, 2012 14:41:10 GMT -5
I see what you mean. Of course, Snape's memories will be coloured by his hatred for the Marauders. But the main events in them should be correct and we do know that the OWL memory was pretty accurate - Sirius and Remus confirmed that one. So, why should the other memories be less accurate?
Personally, I think that in Snape's case it is more likely that he simply ignored the not so bad memories and concentrated on the really bad ones. He was a rather pessimistic person after all.
Where does it say that? I can't remember that right now...
... or wait... it was Sirius who said that, right?
If it was, I wouldn't give to much credit to it. Not because it was Sirius. I wouldn't give much credit to anything Snape says either.
The way I see their relationship, I would be surprised if they didn't try to get each other expelled.
I give a lot more credence to the memories than to the things either side in the conflict says...
Snape was bad. Yeah. Without a doubt.
But at least in this point he wasn't the only guilty party. Of course, he should have acted like the grown up he was. But he obviously wasn't happy in his job. To be honest, I think, he hated teaching. And yet, Dumbledore seem to have done his best to keep him from leaving. And he is the actual guilty party, in my opinion. If Snape had really meant anything to Dumbles, he'd have allowed the man to leave. Instead, he kept him in a job he hated, and watched as Snape grew more frustrated and nastier with each passing year...
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Post by dracosfairmaiden on Jun 23, 2012 15:08:05 GMT -5
I believe that both sides were guilty for provoking the other side. I even think Lily is to blame a little. She could have been a bridge to help them get over their differences. I know that she was hurt by Snape calling her mudblood but James hurt her by insulting her friend every chance he got. What did Lily do to stop them except for yelling? I love Lily, but she didn't help to stop anything.
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Post by Ithiarel on Jun 23, 2012 15:45:14 GMT -5
It's not only that she didn't help, in my opinion she actually encouraged James behaviour by giving him exactly what he wanted: attention.
I believe that Lily's behaviour is one of the main reasons for the ongoing escalation between Snape and the Marauders. If she had made up her mind properly (siding with Snape and completely ignoring the James; or making friends with James and dumping Snape outright) things migth have never gone so far as they did.
Beside of that, Lily always seemed a bit like a hypocrite to me. I get that a lot of things happened between her and Snape even before he called her a mudblood. But I firmly believe that by fifth year she should have grown out of taking that insult seriously. Hermione had. As she said it: "Mudblood. And proud of it." To me, Lily seemed like a fierce and hot-blooded girl. And she tended to take a whole lot of things very personally, that she should have been able to be above of.
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Post by kumainpink on Jun 23, 2012 18:42:23 GMT -5
It's not only that she didn't help, in my opinion she actually encouraged James behaviour by giving him exactly what he wanted: attention. I believe that Lily's behaviour is one of the main reasons for the ongoing escalation between Snape and the Marauders. If she had made up her mind properly (siding with Snape and completely ignoring the James; or making friends with James and dumping Snape outright) things migth have never gone so far as they did. Beside of that, Lily always seemed a bit like a hypocrite to me. I get that a lot of things happened between her and Snape even before he called her a mudblood. But I firmly believe that by fifth year she should have grown out of taking that insult seriously. Hermione had. As she said it: "Mudblood. And proud of it." To me, Lily seemed like a fierce and hot-blooded girl. And she tended to take a whole lot of things very personally, that she should have been able to be above of. You just made a valid point that will now be compiled into my personal head cannon.  |
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Post by IceBlueRose on Jun 23, 2012 18:53:47 GMT -5
I actually think that Lily used the incident where Snape calls her a mudblood as a way to make a clean break from him. She was already disagreeing with him on things and showing her disapproval of what the other Slytherins were doing (and of his support of them) as we saw when she actually defends the Marauders when she points out that they may be arrogant but they don't resort to the dark arts. Not to mention her reaction to Snape being upside down: James whirled about: a second flash of light later, Snape was hanging upside-down in the air, his robes falling over his head to reveal skinny, pallid legs and a pair of graying underpants. Many people in the small crowd cheered; Sirius, James and Wormtail roared with laughter.
Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile, said, "Let him down!"She kept defending him but she was also amused by what James was doing. Follow this by Lily refusing Snape's apology and I think she'd already had it but was just waiting for that final straw and this entire incident gave it to her. As for Snape being entirely innocent, well, he's not really. I get that he's a victim of being bullied in the memory but that doesn't make him entirely innocent. I mean, look at the first time they meet on the train. "You'd better be in Slytherin," said Snape, encouraged that she had brightened a little.
"Slytherin?"
One of the boys sharing the compartment, who had shown no interest at all in Lily or Snape until that point, looked around at the word, and Harry, whose attention had been focused entirely on the two beside the window, saw his father: slight, black-haired like Snape, but with that indefinable air of having been well-cared-for, even adored, that Snape so conspicuously lacked.
"Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" James asked the boy lounging on the seats opposite him, and with a jolt, Harry realized that it was Sirius. Sirius did not smile.
"My whole family have been in Slytherin," he said.
"Blimey," said James, "and I thought you seemed all right!"
Sirius grinned.
"Maybe I'll break the tradition. Where are you heading, if you've got the choice?"
James lifted an invisible sword.
"'Gryffindor, where dwell the brave at heart!' Like my dad."
Snape made a small, disparaging noise. James turned on him.
"Got a problem with that?"
"No," said Snape, though his slight sneer said otherwise. "If you'd rather be brawny than brainy – "
"Where're you hoping to go, seeing as you're neither?" interjected Sirius.
James roared with laughter. Lily sat up, rather flushed, and looked from James to Sirius in dislike.
"Come on, Severus, let's find another compartment."
"Oooooo…"
James and Sirius imitated her lofty voice; James tried to trip Snape as he passed.
"See ya, Snivellus!" a voice called, as the compartment door slammed…Yes, James butts in on the conversation but then he turns and talks to Sirius and they actually ignore Snape and Lily when they start talking about what house they both want to be in. It's Snape that draws their attention back to him and Lily. Had he ignored them, they probably would have just kept going and talking to each other (and, okay, probably insulting Slytherin so I'm not sure if Snape as an eleven year old would have been able to ignore it - for all he sneers at other people's lack of control over their emotions, he's got a serious lack of control when it comes to the Marauders, even back then). Was it okay for James to try and trip him? No, that's not okay either. He could have just rolled his eyes or ignored Snape as well but James in this reminds me of an odd mix of Ron and Draco with his opinions and expecting he'll be in the same house as his dad and Sirius actually reminds me a bit of Harry - he doesn't say a thing to Snape until Snape insults James and Harry often stayed out of Ron and Draco's fights until Draco insulted Ron/his family/Harry's parents (I could be wrong but I just keep thinking of the argument that led to the ferret incident in GoF). But the point I'm trying to make is that for James and Sirius, I think half the fun for them was that Snape never failed to respond to them. While it's been pointed out that Lily gave James exactly what he wanted when she gave him attention, Snape did the exact same thing. He always gave the Marauders his attention and I think it just drew it out further. Actually, one of the best analysis of Snape's Worst Memory is in the RtB series "In the Past to Change the Future" by randomreader90. It's the Marauders, Lily, Regulus, Snape, Dumbledore, and McGonagall from the Marauders' 7th year reading books 4-7 with Hermione (who has gone in the past just a couple weeks after the final battle to hopefully change everything with the help of 1998 McGonagall). If anyone's interested in the reactions and Regulus's analysis of why every single one of them - Marauders, Lily, and Snape - were all to blame, I suggest checking out this chapter: www.fanfiction.net/s/5580222/28/In_the_Past_to_Change_the_Future_Reading_Book_5 |
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Post by Ithiarel on Jun 24, 2012 3:45:56 GMT -5
I know that one. And I wholeheartedly agree with it.
Of course, Snape wasn't entirely innocent, no one ever said that he was. And neither were the Marauders.
My point was that Lily wasn't innocent either in the situtaion. Because people tend to forget about her involvement. I wouldn't go so far as to call her deceitful, but she certainly wasn't the best friend that Snape made her out to be either.
In my personal opinion, she was head-strong and courageous but also touchy and insensitive.
She had problems with Snape's friends long before fifth year but instead of making a clear point about it (as a proper best friend should have done) she drew it out for five years (!) before taking an excuse (!) to act like a cow about it. (I'm sory, but that memory where he tries to apologise? And actually threatens to sleep on the floor in front of the portrait? The least she could have done is hear him out. Even if she wouldn't accept the apology in the end. Instead she turned up her nose at his attempt. I really thought "What a bitch" then...)
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Post by kumainpink on Jun 24, 2012 3:47:14 GMT -5
Same here, Ithiarel.
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